40x60 pole barn advice

[EscapedSuburbia]

I'm new to this community so hopefully this post is OK. Let me know if it's not and I'll delete it.

We're closing on a rural property on July 1 and the first order of business will be getting a 40x60 pole barn built. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row to get quotes. The entire ground floor will be shop space with a mezzanine over part of it for a living space. The shop space will be divided between an area for automotive and machine maintenance and another section for woodworking. The woodshop will be walled off to control dust.

We'll have to have power, water, and sewer run to it. I assume the water will be teed off the well serving the house. The septic field is on the north side of the house and the pole barn will be south of it, probably a couple hundred feet. Does this mean a separate tank & leach field since it's so far away with a house in between? I've always lived in areas with city sewer and water so this is new to me.

I'm also curious about HVAC. This is central Indiana so it gets cold. The mezzanine apartment will need AC but I'm on the fence about the shop space. I'm leaning towards no AC for the shop but I'll want heat. I talked to a couple people who recommended in-floor coils with a propane or diesel boiler. I kinda like the idea of diesel since having some on hand in a tank would be handy for the tractor/mower/motorhome. So what do you folks think? Will I regret not air conditioning the shop? What kind of heat do you prefer? If I do in-floor heating do I handle the mezzanine apartment with a heat pump or mini split?

Any other advice? Things you did or wish you'd have done when building your shop?

 

[Torvy]

I have a 30x40x16. We put the living portion on the ground floor. The loft above is noticeably hotter.

No A/C in the shop. It gets hotter here than in IN. We have doors on 2 sides for cross-breezes. If it's too hot, it's time to do other work in the house. No heat, either, but it doesn't get really cold here unless you've never lived in real cold (grew up in SD).

Our septic handles both. It's about 15' between the buildings. Talk to your septic guy about how far is too far. Basically, you're just running the drain further, but there's a drop over distance issue. Those should be all planned out before anything gets started.

Good luck and welcome to TBN. There's whole sections about rural living.

 

[BigGG]

Before you get too far, make sure you understand the local code and insurance implications. I was thinking about a barndominium arrangement, but the county code would have required the whole thing to meet residential code, increasing the cost a bunch. So I built a 'farm' building which didn't have to meet any code. Even then, they put up a little stink because I put a drain pipe in the slab for a future rest room.

I think fire and egress for living space over a shop may be an issue.

 

[EscapedSuburbia]

Good point on understanding local rules about living spaces. It's rural Indiana zoned agricultural/residential so hopefully not a problem. Even if there's no living space I'll want sewer and water for a laundry tub so I'm not going back to the house all filthy. Where do you start to gather information on local requirements? The zoning commission? Some other county office? I don't want to count on a builder knowing the rules.

 

[ponytug]

Good point on understanding local rules about living spaces. It's rural Indiana zoned agricultural/residential so hopefully not a problem. Even if there's no living space I'll want sewer and water for a laundry tub so I'm not going back to the house all filthy. Where do you start to gather information on local requirements? The zoning commission? Some other county office? I don't want to count on a builder knowing the rules.

Welcome. You might want to update your location in your profile. That helps folks better tailor advice for you.

Again, check local codes. AHJs sometimes get twitching about signs that the space might be inhabited and start treating the space as such. Around here things like a sink and a single window is likely to trigger residential concerns and regulations. If the AHJ does have concerns, you might consider a lean to At the house for a washing up area. That would also save on septic, etc.

For Indiana, I would think that for the metal and for the wood shop that you would want some humidity control, if not temperature control. If you decide to heat the shop, and are pouring a slab, I would think about in floor heating. Shops being shops, if it were me, I would go above and beyond for the compaction of the floor, and encourage you to consider pouring a knee wall as part of the slab as that great increases the floor stiffness, and resistance to cracking.

Finally, shop doors are almost never too tall.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Doorman63]

Septic- we built a smaller building with bathroom approx 150’ away from our existing home.
Waste goes into a tank with a grinder pump then a 2” pipe to the main system. Works really well. Septic guy cautioned against a separate system due to minimal use.

Power-it was cheaper to have an additional service installed versus tapping off existing home service.

Insulation-closed cell spray foam……cry once!! It’s worth it

Floor heat for shop-we decided against it. Turning off/on wasn’t efficient for the minimal use it sees.
Mini split for the win!

 

[dadohead]

Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) was the township for us. Don't make too many plans until you have a discussion. Our township president said "should be no problem" at our initial conversation. At the township meeting with the full board present: problems.

 

[Torvy]

Out here, only septic needs any sort of approval. I was able to put in a few things that would have been against code in a city nowadays. Nothing drastic, just a minor plumbing thing.

I love living here.

 

[3Ts]

If you're doing a machine shop as part of that, you may want to consider embedding anchors in the concrete slab. I don't have one in my shop because I didn't know about doing that. So, when I poured a driveway, I embedded one in that close to the shop. I have a vise on a post I put in the anchor and I can really crank on stuff now.

 

[bigtiller]

We're closing on a rural property on July 1 and the first order of business will be getting a 40x60 pole barn built. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row to get quotes. The entire ground floor will be shop space with a mezzanine over part of it for a living space. The shop space will be divided between an area for automotive and machine maintenance and another section for woodworking. The woodshop will be walled off to control dust.
Any other advice? Things you did or wish you'd have done when building your shop?

The only thing I would do differently is make it bigger.
54X75 x 14 is just to small.

 

[ultrarunner]

40x96 hits the sweet spot for me…

 

[ponytug]

40x96 hits the sweet spot for me…View attachment 3643347View attachment 3643348

That's quite the garage. That's not in California, is it?

All the best, Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

Yes… Castro Valley on 5 acres with city water and fire hydrant.

it’s the one that got away in 2012… the property that checked all the the boxes and I made full price non contingent offer only subject to survey but the seller had accepted a 50k less offer earlier that day… for 6 weeks I was in back up position.

I keep in touch with the buyer but he says never going to leave… make a deal with my widow.

 

[Runner]

Power-it was cheaper to have an additional service installed versus tapping off existing home service.

This can work both ways. There is a transformer in my yard, halfway between my house and shop. Naturally, I thought installing a new service in the shop tapped off the transformer would be the logical solution. However, the power company said if I did that, the new service would have to be classified as a "commercial service" and the base rate would have been more expensive than a residential service.

It was cheaper in the long run for me to run another set of laterals from the transformer to the house up to a disconnect switch, then back out to the shop and keep it as one "residential" service with a sub panel in the shop. Instead of 50 feet of underground service conductors, it wound up being 140 feet, but was still cheaper in the long run.

Bigger is better, I would go 50 x 80 at least. Mine works out to about 40 x 72 and is already tight.

Sizing for septic systems is pretty specific regarding the number of fixtures/bathrooms so you would you would need to know exactly how the original system was designed (and be able to prove it) to show that it could accept an additional load.

Don't be deterred by code people balking at what they perceive as a "dwelling unit" in the building. They are just trying to CTA. The trick is to use language on the plans that they can approve (because, trust me, they want to approve it and get it out the door). If they have a problem with a room labelled a "bedroom" call it an office. If they don't like "kitchen" call it a bar. And so on...

On the other hand, if you really do want to put a dwelling unit in there, and it is not permitted by code, well, as a good citizen, you should follow the rules.

 

[EscapedSuburbia]

I see a lot of people online have had their interiors sheathed in metal panels. Is there a reason for that other than aesthetics? I'd prefer open access to studs in a shop for ease of running more electrical circuits in the future.

 

[deezler]

Good point on understanding local rules about living spaces. It's rural Indiana zoned agricultural/residential so hopefully not a problem. Even if there's no living space I'll want sewer and water for a laundry tub so I'm not going back to the house all filthy. Where do you start to gather information on local requirements? The zoning commission? Some other county office? I don't want to count on a builder knowing the rules.

This is all handled by your local township (unless they defer to the county for permits and inspections).

Stop into the local township office and be friendly with everyone and ask to talk to the local building/zoning official, they can invite you in for a meeting to answer all your questions.

Thats the first thing I did when I bought my parcel of land, zoned residential-3, and was a bit dismayed to find I was not allowed to build a barn BEFORE having a primary dwelling (house) on site. The permits could be combined, and the barn could go first, but could not be separate process/permits. SO I had to work on my vehicles on gravel for a couple years before I could swing a pole barn. There were also many other restrictions and rules to follow that I was not aware of.

The other thing to do is find your local township website and download/read ALL of the zoning regulations. Specifically on buildings and land use, there will be a lot of information to absorb there.

In my case, at least 100' separation was required between well and septic field, didn't matter what was in between them (my house is, to shorten the plumbing in each direction).

Regarding interior finishing - you won't have "studs" with a pole barn unless you specifically frame in an entire wall in between each post, which kind of defeats the purpose of the pole barn and adds some significant cost. Many people do this anyway, but why not just stick-frame the whole building at that point.

Heat/AC - Yeah putting pex tubing in the floor when you pour the slab is cheap to add if you do the labor yourself of setting it up, and then you have by FAR the best heating method. You can just run an electric boiler or water heater if you want to keep it simple. I would personally not want a diesel-fueled heater in my shop requiring tanks, lines, exhaust, fire safety, etc. Propane is easier though.

If you keep the main floor at a reasonably comfortable temp all winter, then the upstairs can be run with a single heat-pump mini-split unit for both winter heat and summer A/C. Running A/C in the main shop is a tough call, its very nice, of course, but also very expensive. I don't have my heat and A/C done in my 30x36 pole barn yet, but I do plan to add a mini-split in the shop floor - not to hold the entire air space at 70°, but rather to blow cold air in at least one area for temporary relief as needed.

 

[hslogger]

For what it is worth from my experiences…
Build your building with Eaves.

 

[EscapedSuburbia]

I'm reading the zoning regulations for our county (I can't find anything township specific) and since we're zoned agricultural it says:

Living quarters are not permitted within an accessory structure without a variance from the BZA. For purposes of this section, “living quarters” is defined as permanent or roughed-in provisions for sleeping, cooking, and sanitation. This definition also includes a camper or recreational vehicle being occupied inside of an accessory structure.

The phrase "sleeping, cooking, amd sanitation" is a bit vague since if there's electric then a stove can be hooked up and if there's a floor you can put a bed on it. The sanitation provision is more obvious, but does it forbid a sink in the shop? So I'll have to make an appointment with someone at the zoning office for clarification. I can try for a variance to allow a small apartment or I can give up on that idea and see if I'm allowed to hook up sewer and water since at the very least I want a wash tub in the shop.

 

[Runner]

The phrase "sleeping, cooking, amd sanitation" is a bit vague since if there's electric then a stove can be hooked up and if there's a floor you can put a bed on it. The sanitation provision is more obvious, but does it forbid a sink in the shop? So I'll have to make an appointment with someone at the zoning office for clarification. I can try for a variance to allow a small apartment or I can give up on that idea and see if I'm allowed to hook up sewer and water since at the very least I want a wash tub in the shop.

See, that's what I mean. That is why, on the plan, you don't show a "bedroom". You call the room "office" then, you don't have "provisions for sleeping", just an office. For the non-kitchen, you leave the stove hookup off the plan and just run a 220 outlet later (if you want an electric stove) and just call the non-kitchen cabinets a "bar".

I know this sounds like subterfuge, but that is how the game is played. Or, if you actually DO want to have an apartment in there, then go to the BZA. Things are approved this way all the time - BZA or Building/Fire Code Board of Appeals.

The property right next door to me (also residential/agricultural zoning) had the opposite problem. They didn't have a primary residence on the property, but wanted to build a pole barn. Zoning Ordinance prohibits an "accessory" building (pole barn) on property without a primary residence.

They are trying to prevent people from building structures to run businesses out of in residential areas. So, to get the plans approved, they walled off a room (bedroom) and showed an area as a kitchen and bathroom. Presto, they have a dwelling unit in the building and plans were approved.

Now, guess what, nobody lives there and the owner is running a buisness out of the building, with the blessing of the City.

 

[Torvy]

Be careful about absolutes when giving advice about which body has which power.

In the US, this varies considerably by state. Ultimately, all power is funneled from the people to the state and from there either to the national government or to local governments. Some states have 8 or 10 different levels of local control. Most have at least 3. Some of that power is direct from the state, in other cases counties can further divide their power to smaller subdivisions.