Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg

   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #21  
I had a contractor give me a bid to install spray foam insulation in my 30x40 shop, including ceiling. Bid was $17,000. I only paid $12k for the shop.

Didnt happen to say the least.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #22  
If you don't mind, please provide information per your statement making tube heaters more costly to operate.

This is no different than a homeowner thinking that a 20 SEER2 split heat pump would save them more money vs a lower SEER2 system when connecting that new HVAC system to 30 year old existing duct work vs a 14.3 SEER2 system with brand new duct work and duct tested.
The radiant tube heater guys won't publish efficiency ratings but as non-condensing heaters they are generally somewhere between 50-80% AFUE (estimated closer to 50-60% on the high end for tube heaters) for non-condensing furnaces. High efficiency condensing furnaces can get up to 98% AFUE.

Some info on condensing vs non-condensing

Some info on radiant tube heater "efficiency"

The sales guys will always fill your ears with BS and lies until they get the sale then will ghost you when their taglines fail to meet up with the hype. You will hear "100% efficient radiant heat" but a butt-load of waste heat ends up going outside through the exhaust and does nothing to heat your building vs the cost of propane consumed.

I can tell you that my radiant heater system running propane costs an arm and a leg to operate and I keep the temps low because of the high operating costs at $2-$4/gallon of propane. If you don't want to believe reality come on over and we'll stick a thermometer in the exhaust pipe and you can see for yourself how "efficient" the combustion process is. Bring some beers while you are at it!
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg
  • Thread Starter
#23  
I had a hanging Modine natural gas heater in my garage in AK. It had a wall mounted controller. Worked very well. Natural gas was dirt cheap when we lived in Anchorage. Electricity cost was over the moon.

Here in WA I have a propane powered salamander heater for my shop. I bring the shop up to 70F and then shut it off if I'm going to be doing anything that might create dust ( sanding ).
How big is your shop?
I have VAL6 diesel heater but afraid to leave running when I'm not there.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg
  • Thread Starter
#24  
Mr. Sixdogs, what are the details for the insulation? Interested for my own planning purposes.
I have an Amish crew giving me the estimate so not positive but I've seen other buildings they've done. I saw them use spray canned foam to seal where pipes and wires come through and then use batten insulation in the walls. Wide widths.

Then they covered it with thin metal. I don't know what went in the ceiling but it would probably be batten or blown-in.

For a pole barn, batten in the walls seems to be the standard. Blown-in of the ceiling is likely standard because I don't think you can walk much on the roof trusses.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #25  
The radiant tube heater guys won't publish efficiency ratings but as non-condensing heaters they are generally somewhere between 50-80% AFUE (estimated closer to 50-60% on the high end for tube heaters) for non-condensing furnaces. High efficiency condensing furnaces can get up to 98% AFUE.

Some info on condensing vs non-condensing

Some info on radiant tube heater "efficiency"

The sales guys will always fill your ears with BS and lies until they get the sale then will ghost you when their taglines fail to meet up with the hype. You will hear "100% efficient radiant heat" but a butt-load of waste heat ends up going outside through the exhaust and does nothing to heat your building vs the cost of propane consumed.

I can tell you that my radiant heater system running propane costs an arm and a leg to operate and I keep the temps low because of the high operating costs at $2-$4/gallon of propane. If you don't want to believe reality come on over and we'll stick a thermometer in the exhaust pipe and you can see for yourself how "efficient" the combustion process is. Bring some beers while you are at it!
Standard ANSI radiant tube heater is 70% AFUE.

The manufacturer I'm familiar with per tube heaters offers radiant tube heaters in 75% AFUE, 78% AFUE, 80% AFUE and 82% AFUE. Those are published ratings by the way.

I consider myself somewhat familiar with conventional unit heaters. Most unit heaters sold for commercial applications are in the 80%-84% AFUE range (at least in my neck of the woods due to each of power venting the unit).

It's been while since I clocked a gas furnace, and I'll take your word for it on your tube heater That said, by using a tube heater, you won't need the same BTU output as you can get by with a lower BTU amount because you're not heating the entire area with a tube heater, but a specific area.

I'd need to look at some larger jobs done in the past, but so far, no complaints on gas usage, and that's from some that are on LP (as noted, most are commercial use).

I have no dog in this fight, only pointing out that if a conditioned space has a manual D done on it accurately and a tube heater job is laid out correctly, it will cost less money to operate in the long run gas wise vs a conventional unit heater.

Tube heaters probably get a bad rap, just like high velocity HVAC systems, just because they aren't laid out properly for commercial application (as noted, large garage doors opening and closing need to be paid special attention as to the garbage in, garbage out per how often and long they are opened).

That said, the upfront cost of tube heaters have a higher up front cost than a simple conventional unit heater along with a higher labor cost.

All that said, we can still agree to disagree;)
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #26  
After I retired I started working for a local HVAC contractor. We have radiant tube heaters in the main shop (60x100') and it works great! I have a propane forced air unit in my 30x40' shop and I have been thinking hard about adding a radiant tube heater to my shop.

I also know his heating costs are exceptionally low and we work all winter in tee shirts comfortably.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #27  
After I retired I started working for a local HVAC contractor. We have radiant tube heaters in the main shop (60x100') and it works great! I have a propane forced air unit in my 30x40' shop and I have been thinking hard about adding a radiant tube heater to my shop.

I also know his heating costs are exceptionally low and we work all winter in tee shirts comfortably.
It's nice to know I'm not completely out in left field (y) LOL
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg
  • Thread Starter
#28  
After I retired I started working for a local HVAC contractor. We have radiant tube heaters in the main shop (60x100') and it works great! I have a propane forced air unit in my 30x40' shop and I have been thinking hard about adding a radiant tube heater to my shop.

I also know his heating costs are exceptionally low and we work all winter in tee shirts comfortably.
A propane forced air heater sounds like it might work for my 42x60 and 14 ft high building. Can you tell me more about this one? Any idea what it costs?
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #29  
I have an Amish crew giving me the estimate so not positive but I've seen other buildings they've done. I saw them use spray canned foam to seal where pipes and wires come through and then use batten insulation in the walls. Wide widths.

Then they covered it with thin metal. I don't know what went in the ceiling but it would probably be batten or blown-in.

For a pole barn, batten in the walls seems to be the standard. Blown-in of the ceiling is likely standard because I don't think you can walk much on the roof trusses.
A few years after my shed was built and ceiling insulated, the Morten guys came back and finished off the inside walls.

The posts were 7.5' apart. The batts of Rockwool insulation they used were so big, one piece of insulation fit snugly from post to post & floor to ceiling.

Check them out, they may have competitive price.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #30  
How big is your shop?
I have VAL6 diesel heater but afraid to leave running when I'm not there.
My shop is small - 20x24. It's an old log cabin. Six inch logs and no insulation. HOWEVER - run my salamander heater for 20 minutes and it's as hot as I ever need.

I NEVER leave the heater running while I'm not there.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #31  
A propane forced air heater sounds like it might work for my 42x60 and 14 ft high building. Can you tell me more about this one? Any idea what it costs?
The first thing you want to do is get a load calculation (you could try to get a rough idea by doing one online). That will give you a decent idea of what you need for your shop at your location. This varies a lot due to location, insulation, # of windows, the direction the structure sits, etc. Here is a simple version:



A forced air unit is not too bad money-wise, 200btu for around $1500. They just hang from the ceiling on uni-strut and you need a gas line run to it and an exhaust. That's really it, nothing to doing the installation. You can also run two units in your shop and place them on the same or separate thermostats depending on the layout if you feel it is needed.

Your ceiling height will be a bit of an issue so you may want to consider a few fans to bring the warm air back down to where you are working. Also if you have open rafters a ceiling would help keep the warm air where you want it.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #32  
At times a load calculation mostly a waste of time a large shop IF it's going to have the doors opened several times a day in the colder weather it will need a unit much larger then the calculated values as those are mainly for a building being uniformly heated at a constant temperature.
A shop that will empty much of the heated air in the 10 minutes a door is open to move a vehicle or piece of equipment in or out needs much more capacity to reheat the mass air change.
If it is a shop that will not have the large doors opened often or has an airlock type entrance can use the calculations as it is a much more consistent load.
I have seen some decent shop heaters put together using a couple of older mobile home furnaces set in the back corners with individual thermostats.

On smaller shops that are not evenly warmed and are heated to be workable the salamander heaters on thermostatic switches work quite well.
1724852115578.png
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #33  
This is what I have in mine, they come in different sizes, they need a small vent, about like a water heater had, run on 110 volts and usually sit up high in the corner.
IMG_0136.jpeg
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg
  • Thread Starter
#34  
This is what I have in mine, they come in different sizes, they need a small vent, about like a water heater had, run on 110 volts and usually sit up high in the corner.
View attachment 941135
How big is your building and how tall inside? Could one heat a 42 x 60, 14 ft high building to 50 degrees or so? What BTU do you think required?
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #35  
Yes it would. In my post earlier I said a ceiling fan or two would help. I had mine installed by an HVAC place and they sized it, 60,000 btu’s. It’s oversized for my 28’x30’ shop but I think he said it was only $20 more for this one. I keep mine between 40 and 45 degrees in the winter and it warms it up to 60 degrees in less than 15 minutes.

The good thing about one of those corner units, probably the cheapest option. I’m not sure how big of one you’d need. One like mine cost about $500 now, you might need one that cost around $1000.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #36  
We run 120btu in a 30'x40' 10' high (16' at peak) and can keep the shop at 70 in pretty much any weather we get. Again, a LOT depends on insulation, wind, windows, seals, etc...

Also, I know you mentioned keeping it at a lower temp but depending what you do you may want it warmer. We restored another old Farmall last year and if it was not 70 I would not have been able to paint and finish the machine throughout the winter. Something to think about....
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #37  
I had my (1300 sg ft) shop walls spray foamed. 2" closed cell. Sealed the (leaky) metal siding perfectly from any wind. Ceiling 12" blown in. Price was about $4200 for each process, but worth it. 100k btu Hot Dawg was $3500 installed.
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #38  
I have a 36x48x14 tall pole barn and i actually have a Reznor forced air heater and also a radiant tube heater. They perform very different and can consume a lot of energy depending on circumstances. My personal choice is the Radiant heat. There is no substitute IMO. Only downfall I feel with the Radiant tube heater is you need to maintain a certain temp in order to use less energy. (I know sounds backwards) It will suck a lot of propane if you are trying to heat a cold shop with it. I mostly turn mine on in early October when the concrete and all the steel in the shop is still warm and i maintain it throughout the year.

Forced air in a cold shop and the top half of you will be warm and the bottom half will be freezing along with your tools and everything else. It takes a very long time for a forced air heater to heat a shop evenly.

I attached a pic with both of them in the shop.
 

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   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #39  
Well, i heat up my 30x40 mostly uninsulated shop in about 20 minutes…. Warm enough to lose jacket. I could care less if my tools are warm. The heater is off all other times unless im working in there
 
   / Need propane heater ideas for insulated 42x60 Morton bldg #40  
Here's my Hot Dawg, up in the corner.

Nov 12 2023.jpg
Hot Dawg heater Oct 18 2023.jpg
 

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