Lightning strike, well pump box failed

[WoodChuckDad]

Big storm last night. Around midnight last night, there was a bright flash and loud electric pop in the house the. Thunder half a second after. I got up and checked around. Lights were all working and no breakers thrown so I went back to bed. Wife woke me up in the morning to say we had no water. I checked the breaker, pressure switch and pump control box with a non contact voltage tester and showed voltage all the way to the pump line so I thought the pump was fried. But then I remembered the reset button on the control box and pushed it. The water came back on. Now I’m a hero.
A couple minute later my wife told me the bathroom didn’t have water.
Now I’m a zero. I pushed the reset button again and it worked for about a minute then Blew. I pressed it again and it lasted ten seconds and this time it wouldn’t reset. I went thru all the trouble shooting listed on the inside cover. Relay failed. And the start capaciter also appeared to be bad. I found a suitable replacement 50 miles away so I took the day off and went to get it. Had to rewire things because this one has a magnetic switch where the old one didnt.
The water is working again but, the last thing I did was check voltages since voltage to the pressure switch is supposed to be lower now.
Line voltage going to the control box is 246. It’s a 3 wire line to the pump. Red, black and yellow. Red and black together measure 375 volts when the pump is running.
Why? And how? Is this normal?

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Should be 240v, what does each leg read, yellow to red & yellow to black? Maybe lightning damaged the breaker going to well. It should be same there with pump running as at well house, if not then sounds like damaged wiring.

 

[dstig1]

Do you have a pump with a VFD controller on it? Regular ones are 240, 2-wire plus ground. If so regular voltage measurements are not going to be what you expect.

 

[WinterDeere]

I pushed the reset button again and it worked for about a minute then Blew. I pressed it again and it lasted ten seconds and this time it wouldn’t reset. I went thru all the trouble shooting listed on the inside cover. Relay failed. And the start capaciter also appeared to be bad.

Given the inconvenience of being without water is huge, I'd be just slapping a new controller in place, and worry about debugging this one to keep as a backup. I'd hate to see you waste a few days playing with this controller, just to find out it's a bad pump, delaying the ultimate fix even longer.

That said, here's some info that can help you with debugging the controller, should you want to go that route:

Non-VFD well pump controllers are just simple motor starters, a start capacitor and a relay to switch it in/out of the circuit.

Your pump has three wires, one of which is the run winding, one is the start winding, and the third is the common leg between the two. The run winding of a single-phase motor (your well pump) is like a single-cylinder engine, or a bicycle with only one pedal. It runs fine once you get that flywheel or crank turning, but it's basically impossible to start the thing when it's been stopped at bottom-dead center.

The start winding provides the second pedal or cylinder, clocked off the first by 90 degrees, this clocking angle is controlled by the size of the start capacitor and the difference in resistance of the smaller wire used in the start winding. But it's not made to be left switched on all the time, and failing to disengage it can cause the symptom you're seeing... a tripped thermal switch or breaker.

Assuming the usual/simple configuration of a "cap start induction run" motor with a single starting capacitor and no run capacitor, a bad capacitor usually yields a motor that just won't start. When you apply power to it, it will just sit and hum, until it trips the thermal switch or breaker.

Usually, a thermal trip occuring after the motor is spinning points at either a bad motor or bad relay, not a bad capacitor. The bad relay can cause this by keeping the start winding engaged longer than intended, causing higher than normal current draw. Because the relay is infinitely easier to replace than the pump motor, swapping it out is the quicker of two options for debugging the problem, for most folks.

I suppose it is possible that a bad start cap could cause the motor to never reach near enough to syncrhonous speed to disengage the relay, but I've never seen that myself. More importantly, a new pump controller comes with both components, and will be the quickest way to either get back up and running, or discover you need a new pump.

 

[dbritt]

Big storm last night. Around midnight last night, there was a bright flash and loud electric pop in the house the. Thunder half a second after. I got up and checked around. Lights were all working and no breakers thrown so I went back to bed. Wife woke me up in the morning to say we had no water. I checked the breaker, pressure switch and pump control box with a non contact voltage tester and showed voltage all the way to the pump line so I thought the pump was fried. But then I remembered the reset button on the control box and pushed it. The water came back on. Now I’m a hero.
A couple minute later my wife told me the bathroom didn’t have water.
Now I’m a zero. I pushed the reset button again and it worked for about a minute then Blew. I pressed it again and it lasted ten seconds and this time it wouldn’t reset. I went thru all the trouble shooting listed on the inside cover. Relay failed. And the start capaciter also appeared to be bad. I found a suitable replacement 50 miles away so I took the day off and went to get it. Had to rewire things because this one has a magnetic switch where the old one didnt.
The water is working again but, the last thing I did was check voltages since voltage to the pressure switch is supposed to be lower now.
Line voltage going to the control box is 246. It’s a 3 wire line to the pump. Red, black and yellow. Red and black together measure 375 volts when the pump is running.
Why? And how? Is this normal?

If you have an ohm meter, unhook the wires to your well (shut off the breaker first!) and check each one individually to ground. If you have any reading on any wire, the pump motor is probably bad. It will draw excessive current and cause the breaker to blow even though it worked for a few minutes. But, even if the pump motor is bad, there's no way you can have more than 250 volts on the pump side. That's the voltage being supplied by your electric company. To have more than that you would have to have 3-phase service, in which case you could have over 400 volts between come of the wires. If you don't have 3-phase power, then either you are reading the meter wrong or you have a Variable Frequency Drive control box. A VFD may have higher voltage on the pump side because it's basically a single-phase to 3-phase converter. I had a VFD controller at my poultry farm and loved the constant steady pressure it provided. BUT, when it went bad, it was VERY expensive to replace it. I think today they are around $5000 just for the control box. Sounds like you may need to call a well guy and let him figure it out. If it's a bad motor you are going to have to get him to pull the pump anyway. Good luck.

 

[WoodChuckDad]

I didn’t replace any components.
I replaced the entire box. This is a brand new Goulds xylem brand control box that I bought yesterday as replacement. The control box is 1 1/2 hp, 1Ph, 60hz, 230v MC control box
My power is single phase.
It replaced a similar franklin electric control box, but this one has the magnetic control switch. Previously I had it wired with 240 v to pressure switch and then to control box. Then to pump.
This “deluxe” box is wired 240 to the control box with a switch wire and an L 2 wire to the pressure switch. The three wires for the pump come off the control box.
L1 and L2 going from breaker to control box read 246. The power coming off the control box going to the pump was reading 375. I will check each leg coming off breaker individually later today. (I’m laying in bed awake at 430).
I will also run ohm check on the legs of the pump wire.
Old box. View attachment IMG_5257.jpg


New boxView attachment IMG_5260.jpg

 

[WoodChuckDad]

Also I do not have a VFD. This box was $275.
I do have a csv cycle stop valve in the line from pump to surface.

 

[steve tym]

That control box and motor are "capacitor run". I.E. the auxilary winding (red wire/start winding) is energized even after the motor starts.
The magnetic switch means there is now no load at the pressure switch, it just energizes the magnetic switch. Better. I'm perplexed that you have high voltage on the red wire, but the capacitor could be upping the voltage. Not sure I've ever checked voltage there.
If you can get your hands on an amp meter, yellow should be about 11.5 amps, black about 11 amps and red about 1.3 amps.

 

[Valveman]

The lightning was just a coincidence. The pump tripped the overload because the start cap was bad. The start cap and relay are not even in the circuit after the pump is started or when the pump is off. So, lightning does not take out start caps and relay. Lightning will blow a hole in the side of of the motor or blow the wires into, but not make the start cap fail. The high voltage after the control box is from the running capacitor, which is common on 1.5HP or larger.

I knew you did not have a VFD because if you had even heard thunder from afar, the VFD would have failed. There is no overload to reset on a VFD. When they get hit or just quit a new VFD controller is needed for $1200 to $5K, which is exactly why pump companies push VFD's.

VFD controls require frequent and costly replacements. Pumps without a CSV cycle themselves to death. A failed start cap, pressure switch, tank diaphragm, or check valve is a sign the pump is cycling on and off too much and will have a short life. Pumps controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve last for decades without any maintenance, which is exactly why pump companies try there best to talk you out of one.

 

[WinterDeere]

But, even if the pump motor is bad, there's no way you can have more than 250 volts on the pump side. That's the voltage being supplied by your electric company. To have more than that you would have to have 3-phase service, in which case you could have over 400 volts between come of the wires.

There are a few things can cause one to measure much higher than 240 volts, on a 240Vrms motor circuit:

1. Bad meter, obviously.
2. Max Hold or Peak Hold function on a DC meter, capturing waveform maxima or transient peak.
3. Measuring DC voltage with capacitor in circuit. Remember the "240 volts" we call out is the RMS value, by convention, created by a 340 volt amplitude waveform.
4. Measuring DC voltage on starting leg, shortly after it's been switched out of the circuit. Large transients happen due to inductive kick from the motor, which can charge the capacitor up even higher than 340 volts.

Scenario 3 is very unlikely, as the motor impedance is low, and should be constantly dragging the cap voltage back down. But scenario 4 is very possible, and seems likely if OP is measuring 375 volts. This is why you will see OEM motor start capacitors are always rated at least 1.4x higher than line voltage, and one big reason they fail when replaced with a lower voltage substitute by people who don't understand.

 

[WoodChuckDad]

I turned off the breaker and pulled the pump wires and tested each leg for ohms. Nothing over 0. Put it back together. Incoming voltage to box, L1 is 123v and L2 is 123 v. turn the water on and when them pump starts, its 360 going out. It built to 370 and then the tank reached 70psi and turned off till it dropped down to 50. Then it repeated. When I have two faucets open at once, the pressure stabilizes at 64 psi and it just runs continuously and that was when I had a reading of 375
It’s a cyclestop csv125. I put it in when I installed the well pump in March 2022. I guess the control box is working the way it is supposed to and the capacitors is just accelerating the voltage. Had I not tested the outgoing voltage, I wouldn’t even question it. This is the setup. For my tank, and the CSV is about 3.5 feet below my pitless adapter in the well.
View attachment IMG_5261.jpg

 

[Valveman]

I turned off the breaker and pulled the pump wires and tested each leg for ohms. Nothing over 0. Put it back together. Incoming voltage to box, L1 is 123v and L2 is 123 v. turn the water on and when them pump starts, its 360 going out. It built to 370 and then the tank reached 70psi and turned off till it dropped down to 50. Then it repeated. When I have two faucets open at once, the pressure stabilizes at 64 psi and it just runs continuously and that was when I had a reading of 375
It’s a cyclestop csv125. I put it in when I installed the well pump in March 2022. I guess the control box is working the way it is supposed to and the capacitors is just accelerating the voltage. Had I not tested the outgoing voltage, I wouldn’t even question it. This is the setup. For my tank, and the CSV is about 3.5 feet below my pitless adapter in the well.
View attachment 3272589

370V is normal on the run cap leg. You should not have needed a new start cap if the CSV and check valve are working properly. You say it repeats from 50 to 70, but is that with a tap open or closed? The CSV should keep the pump running continuously with two, or even just one faucet running. If the pump runs continuously while a shower's worth of water is being used, the CSV is working. If the pump is repeating the 50 to 70 when no taps are open the check valve on the pump has failed. A failed check valve, Cycle Stop Valve, or sometimes the pressure tank can cause the start cap to fail. Be glad to help.

 

[Carl_NH]

David, glad you solved this - but suggest you get a replacement capacitor and keep that one as a spare in the event this occurs again.

Also, there is no question that the CSV extends pump life by keeping the pump running while drawing water. But I think the best combination is the CSV and a larger bladder tank, so you get 8-10 gallons of drawdown, then the pump turns on and runs until there is no more demand.

Case in point, a dishwasher, or clothes washer, pulls a few gallons then runs its cycle, or you turn on the sink, flush the toilet, and the pump runs in your current setup, then turns off once demand is met.

If you increased your storage capacity (larger bladder tank), this would reduce the "starts" which ultimately is the goal is to minimize the starts prolonging pump life, so adding storage capacity, along with a CSV would achieve that,

You can easily add one in series with your current tank - they are 14-18" diameter, and 3-5' tall so could fit in the corner below your current tank - if I recall your plumbing room accurately.

 

[steve tym]

The lightning was just a coincidence. The pump tripped the overload because the start cap was bad. The start cap and relay are not even in the circuit after the pump is started or when the pump is off. So, lightning does not take out start caps and relay. Lightning will blow a hole in the side of of the motor or blow the wires into, but not make the start cap fail. The high voltage after the control box is from the running capacitor, which is common on 1.5HP or larger.

I knew you did not have a VFD because if you had even heard thunder from afar, the VFD would have failed. There is no overload to reset on a VFD. When they get hit or just quit a new VFD controller is needed for $1200 to $5K, which is exactly why pump companies push VFD's.

VFD controls require frequent and costly replacements. Pumps without a CSV cycle themselves to death. A failed start cap, pressure switch, tank diaphragm, or check valve is a sign the pump is cycling on and off too much and will have a short life. Pumps controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve last for decades without any maintenance, which is exactly why pump companies try there best to talk you out of one.

View attachment 3269677

We see that coincidence frequently after lightning, bad relays and caps.

 

[steve tym]

I turned off the breaker and pulled the pump wires and tested each leg for ohms. Nothing over 0. Put it back together. Incoming voltage to box, L1 is 123v and L2 is 123 v. turn the water on and when them pump starts, its 360 going out. It built to 370 and then the tank reached 70psi and turned off till it dropped down to 50. Then it repeated. When I have two faucets open at once, the pressure stabilizes at 64 psi and it just runs continuously and that was when I had a reading of 375
It’s a cyclestop csv125. I put it in when I installed the well pump in March 2022. I guess the control box is working the way it is supposed to and the capacitors is just accelerating the voltage. Had I not tested the outgoing voltage, I wouldn’t even question it. This is the setup. For my tank, and the CSV is about 3.5 feet below my pitless adapter in the well.
View attachment 3272589

Which line are you seeing 375 volts on?
And, valveman is right, if your pump is cycling with a csv, there is something wrong with it.

 

[Carl_NH]

Agreed - but David's statements are " It built to 370 and then the tank reached 70psi and turned off till it dropped down to 50.It built to 370 and then the tank reached 70psi and turned off till it dropped down to 50. Then it repeated. When I have two faucets open at once, the pressure stabilizes at 64 psi and it just runs continuously

"Then it repeated" is a problem if there is NO demand from the house - turn off the house and if it leaks down you have an issue in the well check valve.

"When I have two faucets open at once, the pressure stabilizes at 64 psi and it just runs continuously" This is normal operation for the CSV and the pump should stay running with minimal demand.

 

[Carl_NH]

Ideally, you want a minimum run time of at least 1 minute for best pump life, so a pump at 10 GPM, would dictate 10 gallon "reserve" to fill before it starts again. Otherwise, every time you draw a gallon or two, the pump cycles on and off.

It only runs continuously without cycling when the demand is present e.g for irrigation, but that's not typical household use.

 

[WoodChuckDad]

I think The check valve is good. It only cycles when a faucet is open. I moved in may of 23. The cycling was pretty fast. Shower on the other side of house would cycle every 9 seconds. The same thing happened when using yard hydrants outside to run a sprinkler. I wrote to support and they helped me adjust the pressure switch higher so that it cycled slower. It was a 60 psi switch and increasing to 70 slowed it down.
I am watching it right now. With kitchen faucet open and on cold, I’m running 69 psi and steady. No cycles. Bathroom sink doesn’t flow that fast so with just the bathroom sink open on cold, it cycles on for 23 seconds. Hot water will always be faster because the hot doesn’t flow as fast. There is a spin filter on the hot which restricts the flow as well as the boiler itself. I need to put a larger spin filter on the whole thing because I’m seeing some sediment in the toilet tanks and a few aerators on the faucets.
But the point is the check valve is solid. I think my pressure is just so high, that it overwhelms the csv and short cycles

 

[etpm]

Carl_NH suggested that a spare capacitor should be kept on hand. I heartily agree with this. I have a spare cap for my well. My neighbor didn't have a spare cap handy when his setup quit working. On a Sunday. You would think that on an island where practically everybody is on a well the hardware stores would have start caps for sale. But no. Even on the north end, 60 miles away, Home Depot should have start caps for sale. No dice. Anyway, my neighbor calls me up to see if I can help. I took the start cap out of my big bandsaw and used it to get their water back on. After that I bought extra caps for my well. My neighbor did too. There is room at my well head for all the extra electrical parts needed to keep my well pump pumping. I vacuum sealed them along with wiring instructions so that anybody that can follow directions can get my well back up and running after an electrical fault.
Eric

 

[WoodChuckDad]

Carl_NH suggested that a spare capacitor should be kept on hand. I heartily agree with this. I have a spare cap for my well. My neighbor didn't have a spare cap handy when his setup quit working. On a Sunday. You would think that on an island where practically everybody is on a well the hardware stores would have start caps for sale. But no. Even on the north end, 60 miles away, Home Depot should have start caps for sale. No dice. Anyway, my neighbor calls me up to see if I can help. I took the start cap out of my big bandsaw and used it to get their water back on. After that I bought extra caps for my well. My neighbor did too. There is room at my well head for all the extra electrical parts needed to keep my well pump pumping. I vacuum sealed them along with wiring instructions so that anybody that can follow directions can get my well back up and running after an electrical fault.
Eric

That is genius. I have some replacement items for other important things around the farm, in my connex that are ziplocked with identification of the parts. I think I need to add instructions. I kept the control box that failed and plan to replace the start cap. And the relay. I’ve been watching some videos about the multi-meter because, I really don’t know my way around the multi-meter very well. I always say I’m going to learn but I muddle thru a task and then move on. I also need to get an amperage meter that has the clamp. I really don’t know how I have justified not buying one with everything I built here and with all the things that require troubleshooting.
I am surprised that nobody offers a one or two night class where they teach you to use them, along with some practical troubleshooting.

Back to the cSV cycling, I am not sure if I should put another tank in-line, or if I should put some kind of flow or pressure restrictor in. But I definitely have more pump cycling than In planned on having.