425 again…movement problems…

[MossRoad]

Linked to wrong video. It is fireworks.

That's your wallet when you buy a new tractor.

 

[MossRoad]

Hmmm. I get that noise if I don't have the engine at high enough RPM going forward OR backward.

You only get it going in reverse?

 

[MossRoad]

So, to be clear, I get that noise when the load starts to exceed machine's capability to move in the direction I want to go. So, either engine RPM is too low, grade is too steep, pushing against an immovable object, etc... it's a strain noise.

If you don't get the noise going forward, but you get it in reverse and the engine stalls, it would seem to me that something is blocking or loading down the reverse circuit.

 

[MossRoad]

To which you may reply... thanks Captain Obvious.

I have no idea what would be causing it.

I don't know how feasible it is, but if you could swap the forward and reverse circuit hoses at the variable volume pump, and try it again, and the problems shifts from reverse to forward, it would probably indicate the pump. May need extension hoses, etc... I can't recall how tight it is in there, but there isn't much play in mine.

You could also pull the two hoses off of one wheel motor and hook them together, then test. Do it for all four wheel motors, one at a time. Maybe one of them is having problems reversing.

Or, just call Terry at PT and tell him you get the whine in reverse and it stalls and see what he suggests.

 

[ponytug]

That fluid looks very green. Is that really green?

As for the other noise, I agree with @MossRoad's diagnosis. Personally, I would call Terry before opening hoses in the motor circuit because that oil is predominantly recirculating, and needs to be super clean.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Modrob]

That fluid looks very green. Is that really green?

As for the other noise, I agree with @MossRoad's diagnosis. Personally, I would call Terry before opening hoses in the motor circuit because that oil is predominantly recirculating, and needs to be super clean.

All the best,

Peter

Yes it does look green…but when I drained some out into a pan, it looked like new, clean oil.
Earlier today I did email Terry with those videos.

 

[Modrob]

So, to be clear, I get that noise when the load starts to exceed machine's capability to move in the direction I want to go. So, either engine RPM is too low, grade is too steep, pushing against an immovable object, etc... it's a strain noise.

If you don't get the noise going forward, but you get it in reverse and the engine stalls, it would seem to me that something is blocking or loading down the reverse circuit.

Yea, I think you’re onto it. Except, no load and it happens. Even on flat ground. And again, backing up a slight incline and I did run into a little bit of packed snow, and it stalled. I was in a bind here—going forward and I’d be over into the ravine. I had to keep punching at it and finally got it to move far enough to maneuver again. RPMS usually high and no difference. It would stall (movement) but motor still high rpms and no wheels trying to turn…
I wonder…I don’t know how the treadle pedals are supposed to feel, but it seems to me the left (reverse) one takes a lot of effort to push on, and I’m not really sure it’s moving very much. Just today I thought about that, and will check into it soon. But…if that pedal wasn’t moving as it should, would it play a part in creating that noise?

 

[MossRoad]

I forgot or maybe it was never mentioned, several questions, so please forgive me if these are repeats...,

First, these machines are capable and designed to go full speed going forward AND reverse. So the treadle pedals need to be able to move the directional control on the variable volume pump an equal distance in both directions, wether that be cable operated or hydraulically operated.

Second, I have NO hands-on experience with hydraulic treadles, only the hydroback cable on my machine. I'm pretty familiar with it.

With that said...

- does your machine use a hydroback cable from the treadle to the variable volume pump, or is it hydraulically controlled?

- did you block it up off of the ground and try operating the treadle to see if the whine happens with all 4 wheels off the ground?

- The reverse treadle pedal is shorter than the forward treadle pedal, and it should be easier pushing the forward pedal than the reverse pedal due to leverage. BUT... it shouldn't be that hard to push the reverse pedal. Something is amiss.

- If it's a cable operated treadle, try turning the machine off and observing the action of the direction lever on top of the variable volume pump and make sure it can go the same distance when the pedals are pushed full forward and full reverse as measured from the center neutral position. It should be easy in both directions and full travel. If not, there's a problem with the pump, or the cable, or the treadle.

- Also, there are three grease zerks on the cable operated treadle. If you have cable operated treadle, make sure they are all greased and free moving. You could disconnect the cable at the variable volume pump direction lever and see if the treadle pedals move freely by hand in both direction while the cable is disconnected. That would help eliminate the treadle and hydroback cable as problems.

- If it's a hydraulic treadle, I recall mention of the early models with hydraulic treadle being too sensitive to movement and PT added springs under the treadle pedals to put more resistance against your feet so it wasn't so sensitive. If so, see if there are springs under each pedal somewhere.

- Also again, check for any debris under and around the treadle area. Mine frequently gets small sticks and brush in there that can build up under a pedal, making it impossible to push to full travel. I have to remove them after heavy brush cutting.

Hope those suggestions help.

 

[Modrob]

MossRoad said:
First, these machines are capable and designed to go full speed going forward AND reverse. So the treadle pedals need to be able to move the directional control on the variable volume pump an equal distance in both directions, whether that be cable operated or hydraulically operated.

Second, I have NO hands-on experience with hydraulic treadles, only the hydroback cable on my machine. I'm pretty familiar with it.

With that said...

- does your machine use a hydroback cable from the treadle to the variable volume pump, or is it hydraulically controlled?

Me: CABLE

- did you block it up off of the ground and try operating the treadle to see if the whine happens with all 4 wheels off the ground?

Me: I did, but I believe at the time my mission was to ensure all wheels turned smoothly and no noises from them. As well as see if pedals zeroed out correctly. I think the noise was still there, behind the seat…

- The reverse treadle pedal is shorter than the forward treadle pedal, and it should be easier pushing the forward pedal than the reverse pedal due to leverage. BUT... it shouldn't be that hard to push the reverse pedal. Something is amiss.

Me: I Need to look closer…

- If it's a cable operated treadle, try turning the machine off and observing the action of the direction lever on top of the variable volume pump and make sure it can go the same distance when the pedals are pushed full forward and full reverse as measured from the center neutral position. It should be easy in both directions and full travel. If not, there's a problem with the pump, or the cable, or the treadle.

Me: I will look into this further.

- Also, there are three grease zerks on the cable operated treadle. If you have cable operated treadle, make sure they are all greased and free moving. You could disconnect the cable at the variable volume pump direction lever and see if the treadle pedals move freely by hand in both direction while the cable is disconnected. That would help eliminate the treadle and hydroback cable as problems.

Me: Will check in this too

- Also again, check for any debris under and around the treadle area. Mine frequently gets small sticks and brush in there that can build up under a pedal, making it impossible to push to full travel. I have to remove them after heavy brush cutting.

Me: Will look closer.

Hope those suggestions help.
[/QUOTE]
Me: Many thanks again!

 

[Modrob]

Update for Thurs Feb 20:
Spoke with Terry this morning. He heard the video and thinks it’s pump whine and pretty normal, but as far as the “stalling movement” he suggested checking the coupler from engine to pump. Sometimes they start stripping, and maybe if so, I can try tightening a set screw on it with a T-handle Hex. We also talked about the cable could be worn out as well as needing lubed. (I didn’t know it could be lubricated until Mossroad’s details above) He also is curious on why it’s happening just on reverse mode so I’ll dig a little deeper into the cable/pedals setup…
Whew! It’s too damned cold for all this LOL

 

[Modrob]

Well…I did some piddling with it today…was trying it out. It seemed a little better but then started acting up again in reverse…and THEN—made a loud sound from the pump area and wouldn’t move at all reversed. A little movement forward and then the noise. With it still running I lifted the hood and watched for anything while I gingerly pushed on the pedals. Made the noise again and THEN—whoosh! A pressurized stream of fluid started shooting out the side of the pump! I shut it down and the fluid stopped. At this point it was stuck in the middle of the inclined driveway, but, I was able to push it back out of the way…so, debating in my mind what to do next…to make things even more difficult, earlier I noticed what looked like one of the bolts holding the pump on has been broken off…I’m really considering talking to Power Trac and see if I might trailer it to them for an overall evaluation, and then estimate the pump ordeal. Again, it’s a 2001 model, and it was rode hard in its earlier years. It’s really served beyond well…some pics attached:

 

[Modrob]

More pics from earlier: (the pedal area, looking at the linkage and cable…I cleaned the area up and lubed things)

 

[Modrob]

More of the hydroback area:

 

[Modrob]

Mossroad…I know you’re intimately aware of this area ) so…are there only 2 socket head bolts holding the pump onto the front frame? Looks that way to me and one of mine appears to have the head broken off…

 

[MossRoad]

Mossroad…I know you’re intimately aware of this area ) so…are there only 2 socket head bolts holding the pump onto the front frame? Looks that way to me and one of mine appears to have the head broken off…

Yes, it only has 2 bolts on my 2001 425. See the 4th picture down in this thread...

2001 PT425 Kohler CH25 Oil Leak - Pull The Engine

My 2001 PT425 developed an oil leak. About 1/2 a quart every 20 minutes. Can't seem to locate it, other than a pool of oil under the engine. So time to pull the engine, put it on a stand, clean it up, and run it to locate the leak. Trying to avoid disconnecting hydraulic hoses. Pulled the gas...

www.tractorbynet.com

 

[ponytug]

@Modrob my condolences. That sounds like a part failure in the pump that sheared the Lovejoy.

All the best, Peter

 

[Modrob]

Yes, it only has 2 bolts on my 2001 425. See the 4th picture down in this thread...

2001 PT425 Kohler CH25 Oil Leak - Pull The Engine

My 2001 PT425 developed an oil leak. About 1/2 a quart every 20 minutes. Can't seem to locate it, other than a pool of oil under the engine. So time to pull the engine, put it on a stand, clean it up, and run it to locate the leak. Trying to avoid disconnecting hydraulic hoses. Pulled the gas...

www.tractorbynet.com

Thanks for that (I remember that post…very helpful. Just wish I could remember so much good information/pointers more readily)
I stand corrected—that cable cylinder that pushes/pulls the direction lever is the “hydroback”, yes? And then the pump underneath is the “tram” pump, yes? I believe I was under the idea that the whole pump assembly was the “hydroback”…whew.
Before the thing blew up and after the sudden noise/bang/growl, I could see the direction lever wasn’t moving with the pedals. But I did see the chrome cylinder inside the bigger cylinder move a little back and forth, not moving the shaft to the direction lever, but it appeared the chrome part was sorta moving a little sideways. Hmmm. Just after that she blew when I tried the pedals again.

Using your video as directed I could get it all apart and the pump removed. How to proceed next? Guessing that would be a job for Terry’s crew? But then, if it was repaired, how bad would it be to get it all back together and the hydraulic system right? I’m going to check with Power Trac and see if they might give me an idea of a possible cost…boy oh boy oh boy….

Edit: meant to add that the hydroback cylinder attaching plate has been altered on mine…someone welded the plate to the pump frame. Also I see on yours the pump lever is on the side of the operator—mine is set towards the rear. Maybe they had to do it that way when that attaching frame was welded on?

 

[Modrob]

@Modrob my condolences. That sounds like a part failure in the pump that sheared the Lovejoy.

All the best, Peter

Oh boy…should I get some crying towels ready? Prepare a burial? Ouch!

 

[ponytug]

Oh boy…should I get some crying towels ready? Prepare a burial? Ouch!

Grinding noises are one thing in my book. Grinding noises followed by blowing a seal on a pump housing starts to drift into "Ouch" categories in my book. Grinding noises, blown seal, and clunk, well that's just adding to it. But it might be something simple, you never know.

The only way to know is to pull it and disassemble it, or take it to someone who could make the call on repairs, and whether it is worth it. Checking with Terry is the best first step.

As you have written this unit was worked hard for a long time, so parts wearing out isn't (shouldn't be) a total surprise. Things wear out in machinery. In my experience, simple machines are often great candidates for repair and continue working, but a great deal hangs on whether parts (pumps/motors) are available for replacement or repair, and the labor costs associated with all of that. My experience is having access to a great hydraulic shop makes a world of difference, just like having access to a great local transmission rebuilder for cars..

One thing that I would assume is that all of the drive hoses, and wheel motors will have debris in them and need flushing to remove any potential debris. For the hoses after checking to see if they are worth saving, I would use some sponge "pigs" to clean them. (And I would use fresh sponges for each hose.) If it were me, I might ask your local hydraulic shop if they can flush the motors for you. I would also drain the hydraulic oil, clean the tank, and put fresh oil back in.

Personally, I would withhold the funerary plans until after the pump is opened.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Modrob]

Grinding noises are one thing in my book. Grinding noises followed by blowing a seal on a pump housing starts to drift into "Ouch" categories in my book. Grinding noises, blown seal, and clunk, well that's just adding to it. But it might be something simple, you never know.

The only way to know is to pull it and disassemble it, or take it to someone who could make the call on repairs, and whether it is worth it. Checking with Terry is the best first step.

As you have written this unit was worked hard for a long time, so parts wearing out isn't (shouldn't be) a total surprise. Things wear out in machinery. In my experience, simple machines are often great candidates for repair and continue working, but a great deal hangs on whether parts (pumps/motors) are available for replacement or repair, and the labor costs associated with all of that. My experience is having access to a great hydraulic shop makes a world of difference, just like having access to a great local transmission rebuilder for cars..

One thing that I would assume is that all of the drive hoses, and wheel motors will have debris in them and need flushing to remove any potential debris. For the hoses after checking to see if they are worth saving, I would use some sponge "pigs" to clean them. (And I would use fresh sponges for each hose.) If it were me, I might ask your local hydraulic shop if they can flush the motors for you. I would also drain the hydraulic oil, clean the tank, and put fresh oil back in.

Personally, I would withhold the funerary plans until after the pump is opened.

All the best,

Peter

Very good points Peter. To tell the truth, I’m anxious to “open it up” and see the problem(s). But over recent years I’m becoming more and more hesitant to dive deep into repairs and such. Mainly because my brain has been diminishing in being able to retain things like I used to. And, then I end up having to spend more time relearning what I had earlier learned, and then I’ve got yet another in a long list of projects I’m already “in the middle” of stacking up. Kind of depressing sort of, to feel overwhelmed. But I’ve created it all myself, and yet I can’t seem to stop! LOL (I really hate this aging )
And yet, here I am, thinking about tearing into it, again! Ha!
I’m about to contact Terry for his thoughts. If he agrees, I’m thinking it best to trailer it to them. Then see where I stand, and if it’s economical to put a bunch of money into it at this point…