International 444, 1968. Progress Thread, Getting Going

[DJ54]

I use a 1/4" air angled die grinder with 2" Roloc style head, and 2" surface conditioning discs similar to the 3M Roloc discs. 3M brand are pretty expensive, even HF is high on them. I buy them in a box of 50 every year at Swappers Day in Johnstown off a tool guy there. They work, and last just as well as the ones made by 3M. Makes gasket removal a quick, clean job.

Seller on Ebay has a pretty good price on them:Findmall 50Pcs 2" Surface Conditioning Discs Roll Lock Die Grinder Sanding Pads | eBay

Not sure what the collet size is on your Dremel. I bought my angle grinder at HF via mail order long before stores came to the area, and know it has to be 30 years old, and still going strong, but it was made in Japan. I know it has saved me a lot of time and effort removing gaskets.

If it has a 1/4" collet, might get the HF head and pack of discs and try them and see if it's worth investing in a air die grinder, and discs in bulk. Not something I use every day, but a real time saver more often than not.

 

[FlyFishn]

I don't have a whole lot in the way of updates yet. I pulled the starter and valve cover between Wednesday and Thursday. That didn't lead anywhere, other than to eliminate some question. I am still concerned there is more wrong, however not having found any metal bits anywhere gives me more hope.

The 2 things that most concern me on what it was doing/did the last times it "ran" are:
1. Hard to start cold, backfiring, otherwise very rough running
2. The very last time I got it to fire enough to keep the engine turning over (rough firing trying to get to idle RPM, but never getting there, just barely popping enough to keep it going for a little bit) the hydraulics were barely working. I got the loader frame up enough to block it. The 3 point only lifted the rear blade about 6" and wouldn't go further. Air temp I want to say was around 40deg that day, above freezing but not "warm".

As to #2 - would the low RPM be the cause of why the 3 point wouldn't lift? Or low hydraulic fluid? Or the hydraulic pump not generating pressure?

I would think if the hydraulic pump wasn't able to generate pressure the loader wouldn't have come up. So that one stumps me.

 

[DJ54]

First, I would have to ask how you do, what is your procedure for doing a cold start. In cooler/cold weather, every one of my gas tractors that set in an unheated building require setting them to full choke, throttle setting to around at least 1/4 to 1/3 position. All of my IH tractors will normally start after 3 revolutions, at that time you immediately set the choke to around 1/2 or so depending on the temperature, or even how cold it may have gotten over night, like below freezing. They need to run on a pretty rich fuel mixture until the manifold warms up some to atomize the fuel. As they warm up, you need to reduce the amount the choke is set, this may take a few minutes for this to happen. While it may run smooth at half choke for 30 seconds or so, it will probably start running rough again as it warms up because the mixture is too rich. Ease off the choke and it will smooth out. You may have to do this another time or two until the manifold of warm enough to atomize the fuel. Even then it may have to warm up some before moving the tractor or using hydraulics. Any function you do that may pull the engine down will more than likely cause the governor to activate calling for more fuel and likely flood the engine and die.

Timing could be an issue too. If it's popping, timing could be advanced too much be firing way before TDC, and popping back through an intake valve, on out through the carb. I'd say contact points and timing is more critical in cold weather. Point setting (dwell angle) will slightly change the timing, but timing will not change the dwell setting. Double check your points setting, then set the timing by static timing, or using a timing light. A few degrees off can make a big difference. Some set timing by ear, listening to the engine run. I've been messing with vehicles and tractors for 50 years, and while maybe close using that method, I don't know that it's ever been dead nut on, although may run well enough to get it back to the shop where I can properly set things.

As for the #2 problem, with the age of the tractor I'm sure the pump is worn some. At the low RPM's and oil being cold it's probably not developing enough pressure to begin with. As contaminated as the oil, and oil filter, let alone maybe oil level low. the pump has to try and push the contaminated oil through a contaminated filter. Oil will therefore seek the path of least resistance as with any liquid. It may go around worn gears or even open the bypass valve depending on the temp of the oil, but more than likely going around the gears. Got to remember if it's been in the 20's for a couple days, that oil is still really cold. Just because the air temp is 40º, that oil temp. is probably still in the 30º range.

Once the engine warms up enough to get some higher RPM's, the pump should be able to pump more oil to overcome what is bypassing around worn gears, unless it's completely worn out. It may be able to do basic functions with no load.

I'd have to say purging the contaminated oil & filter will help, but I wouldn't expect to hop on it and go after a cold start, in cold weather. I believe every operator's manual I've read says to let a machine warm up to operating temperature, before doing any work. All oils will circulate and warm up either by engine heat, or friction circulating through the system. If not, it could damage the pump trying to pump a larger volume of oil than the bypass can handle. I've heard of spin on filters being blown completely off for the same reason.

Warmer weather can be a lot more forgiving, but a machine should still be allowed to warm some before performing a task.

 

[dieselscout80]

Concerning the hydraulic issue have you cleaned the suction screen/filter? It’s under your seat by your right calf when sitting on the seat of your tractor?

 

[FlyFishn]

As to the suction filter - the diagram I have in the ops manual isn't very clear on the exact locations of what filters.

That said, I pulled one of them that looked to be about 2 to 2-1/2" long and about 5/16" diameter and cleaned it off a bit. It just had some goo on it, no debris. I can't tell you if it was specifically the suction filter or not.

 

[FlyFishn]

I am trying to find a replacement oil pan gasket. The CNH store online doesn't list it and I can't find it on Ebay, either.

The PN should be 43458D8.

Any ideas on that one?

I also did a more generic search for an "oil pan gasket c-153 engine" with no luck. Juts a lot of unrelated nonsense on Ebay.

The "hydraulic filter" appears to be the can under the seat by the remote valve lever behind the shifter. PN 392532r91. That one does show up on the CNH store, as does the oil filter PN 376374r91.

 

[dieselscout80]

As to the suction filter - the diagram I have in the ops manual isn't very clear on the exact locations of what filters.

That said, I pulled one of them that looked to be about 2 to 2-1/2" long and about 5/16" diameter and cleaned it off a bit. It just had some goo on it, no debris. I can't tell you if it was specifically the suction filter or not.

View attachment 2663680

That one is in the valve assembly.

The suction screen is the larger hose coming straight out of the bottom of the tank which is what your seat is mounted to. There is a bolt with a metal tab that holds the suction screen in place.

Remove the bolt and tab and then disconnect the hose/hose clamps and slide the short piece of hose forward and then suction screen pulls out.

You lose most of your hydraulic oil when you pull it out so be prepared. I have parked my 424 with the front axle up hill so I didn’t lose so much oil when cleaning the suction filter.

There’s a drain on the back below the fill port. I put a 45 degree street elbow in it to make future drains less messy.

 

[DJ54]

I am trying to find a replacement oil pan gasket. The CNH store online doesn't list it and I can't find it on Ebay, either.

The PN should be 43458D8.

Any ideas on that one?

I also did a more generic search for an "oil pan gasket c-153 engine" with no luck. Juts a lot of unrelated nonsense on Ebay.

The "hydraulic filter" appears to be the can under the seat by the remote valve lever behind the shifter. PN 392532r91. That one does show up on the CNH store, as does the oil filter PN 376374r91.

That "8" should be a "B". Try this, 43458DB. Tons of them up there, just have to shop for the right price to suit you. I'm seeing them doing a Google search for around $9 to $19. Don't bother looking at Case/IH, they're $48 there.

 

[FlyFishn]

First, I would have to ask how you do, what is your procedure for doing a cold start.

Interesting question. I dont really have a "process".

When I got the rear blade operational all the times I got the tractor running in all that (early January - first 2 weeks) time I just used full choke and some throttle - about 1/3 maybe - and let it crank. It would pop in a sequence of about 3-4 pops early on, then would stop popping for a bit, and a bit later (still cranking) it would start popping again. At that point I would hold the starter on while it was popping until the popping increased enough to where I thought I could let off of it and have it keep going. Once I stopped "cranking" it would eventually ramp up in RPM to normal. I couldnt back off the throttle much or it would quit.

The last time I plowed the drive and barn lot I got it started in the barn and let it sit running at about 1/2 throttle with a bit of choke - maybe 1/3 or so - to warm up. It was rough and backfiring but kept going.

That was the time it ran just before I hauled the trailer back in the field the third weekend in January.

 

[FlyFishn]

That one is in the valve assembly.

The suction screen is the larger hose coming straight out of the bottom of the tank which is what your seat is mounted to. There is a bolt with a metal tab that holds the suction screen in place.

Remove the bolt and tab and then disconnect the hose/hose clamps and slide the short piece of hose forward and then suction screen pulls out.

You lose most of your hydraulic oil when you pull it out so be prepared. I have parked my 424 with the front axle up hill so I didn’t lose so much oil when cleaning the suction filter.

There’s a drain on the back below the fill port. I put a 45 degree street elbow in it to make future drains less messy.

Based on your descriptions I think I have a solid idea what you are referring to. I am fighting with the rubber hoses on that pipe.

Part of the work I am doing (that I held off on until I got the tractor down like this) is to open up the transmission and see about loosening the gear shift shuttles. In order to get in there that hydraulic line has to come out.

 

[dieselscout80]

This is it. Spray some lube on the front edge of the pipe and work the hose back and forth while twisting and once the lube gets between hose and the tube it will get moving.

 

[FlyFishn]

I was able to work the rear of the 2 rubber hoses loose with channel lock pliers. I got a bite on it on one side and worked it back and forth until it broke free, then went to the other side and did the same thing. No need for any extra lube - the bit of oil still in the line was plenty of lube.

Here is the filter I pulled out of there:

Now the next conundrum. How do I open up the top of the trans? See the picture below. The yellow circled bolt is the last of the ones holding down the trans cover. The valve block behind it is in the way. And to get the valve block off the yellow circled bolt has to come out, but the trans cover is in the way of accessing it. I tried to get various wrenches on the small trans cover bolt and got it to move a little with a crows foot, but I can't get any range of motion on it to spin it back out.

 

[FlyFishn]

What thoughts does everyone have on the aftermarket oil filters - like fleetguard or others? Looks like some on Ebay are under $20, fleetguards $20-30. The OEM is $92 and change at the dealer.

 

[dieselscout80]

What thoughts does everyone have on the aftermarket oil filters - like fleetguard or others? Looks like some on Ebay are under $20, fleetguards $20-30. The OEM is $92 and change at the dealer.

Engine oil or hydraulic and gas or diesel engine?

 

[FlyFishn]

Engine oil or hydraulic and gas or diesel engine?

The specific question was engine oil - gas engine (c153).

More broadly - hydraulic oil also.

 

[dieselscout80]

I don’t know anything about the gas engine.

The hydraulic system only has the two screens in it that are posted above. The suction one is larger and the other is a bit bigger than the diameter of a pencil.

The original poster has posted pictures of them.

 

[DJ54]

Is that a convoluted metal mesh hydraulic filter..?? If it is, I wouldn't be a bit afraid of washing it really well and reusing it, as long as there are no holes in it, and rubber seal isn't torn.

Is that a spin on filter..?? Wix P/N is 51051, O'reilly's has them for $19.99. Napa # is 1051 for $19.49. Fleetguard is a decent filter, I use them on my Farmall 656 gasser.

 

[DJ54]

Which hydraulic system are you looking at for the filter..?? I'm looking at page F19 here: International Diesel Tractor (north America) | Case IH | MyCNH US Store that has the exploded view of the system with aux. outlets. That's a different filter than used on without. Listed under #43 in the parts listing, it comes as a kit. Bane Welker has it for $56. A lot less looking it up for aftermarket kits. Here's the P/N : 392532R91 | Filter Kit | Case IH | MyCNH US Store

 

[dieselscout80]

I was able to work the rear of the 2 rubber hoses loose with channel lock pliers. I got a bite on it on one side and worked it back and forth until it broke free, then went to the other side and did the same thing. No need for any extra lube - the bit of oil still in the line was plenty of lube.

Here is the filter I pulled out of there:
View attachment 2664583

View attachment 2664584

Now the next conundrum. How do I open up the top of the trans? See the picture below. The yellow circled bolt is the last of the ones holding down the trans cover. The valve block behind it is in the way. And to get the valve block off the yellow circled bolt has to come out, but the trans cover is in the way of accessing it. I tried to get various wrenches on the small trans cover bolt and got it to move a little with a crows foot, but I can't get any range of motion on it to spin it back out.

View attachment 2664585

Yeah my suction filter (1st two pictures in the post I quoted) looked like that the first time I took it out to clean it.

I think the hydraulic tank/valve assembly has to come off to take off the transmission cover off, but I am not certain of that. If you have to take off the tank (where seat mounts) will need a hoist to lift it.

 

[FlyFishn]

I think the hydraulic tank/valve assembly has to come off to take off the transmission cover off, but I am not certain of that. If you have to take off the tank (where seat mounts) will need a hoist to lift it.

Well some bad news, but not a total killer - you are correct. According to the service manual IH-201 page 57 paragraph 148A - it describes removing the [transmission] "top cover and hydraulic lift housing" in that the latter has to be removed for access to the former - just as you thought.

Since I have the front and rear remotes, plus loader, I have all the hydraulic options = all of that has to be dismantled as it all mounts to and plumbs to the lift housing, along with the rockshaft for the 3pt lift.

This is going to take a while....

As to a hoist - I have had that on my list of things to add to the shop. That said, I have a janky garage method to do so with a wireless remote controlled electric winch. If that assembly is under 5-600lbs I think we'll be OK. We own a piano and when we moved here we used the same method. I think that is about what the piano is - 5-600lbs.