International 444, 1968. Progress Thread, Getting Going

[DJ54]

Here are a couple pictures showing the ring gear and starter. They aren't the greatest, but the ring gear doesn't appear to have any "missing teeth" in the area that is exposed. Just the gear on the starter seems like the tips of the teeth are worn down.

View attachment 883768View attachment 883769

I've seen gears a whole lot worse, but being you had to lube the bendix to get it to work somewhat better, wondering if it wasn't fully retracting causing wear on the flywheel teeth. Most have a pretty sharp edge. Some straight, some on a bevel.

Welds on the exhaust pipe aren't pretty, almost looks brazed rather than a weld, but either way rusty pipe is not easy to get a good looking weld on. As my buddy used to say, "Pile it up high enough, there's no way it's going anywhere."

You can find numerous threads on the carb. solenoid from different tractor forums doing a search on Google for fuel solenoid on a C-153, or IH 444. Not to steer you away from here, but the Red Power forum is a great place to find answers, just look for them from there when doing a search for above items, either C-153, or 444.

 

[FlyFishn]

You can find numerous threads on the carb. solenoid from different tractor forums doing a search on Google for fuel solenoid on a C-153, or IH 444. Not to steer you away from here, but the Red Power forum is a great place to find answers, just look for them from there when doing a search for above items, either C-153, or 444.

Thanks for the info. This is quite a learning experience on a lot of levels. All the resources and tidbits here help. I was not aware of the red power forum.

Ive done a lot of mechanical and electrical/electronic work over the years. I wont recap everything here, but electronic down to smt board level repairs and I am getting ready to rebuild a powerstroke 6.7 in the near future (ive done a lot of work on it in past years already, but this time it has to come out and everything taken apart). The tractor at the moment is the priority - we need it (even limping) to do some critical property maintenance.

I am going to try my theory of blocking off the solenoid port with a bolt. I realize that probably will cause some run-on, and possibly running backwards for a moment, on shut-down, but Ill try it and see what I get. I dont want to take the head off and clean the soot out of the combustion chambers if I dont have to. Down the road when I have more time and can leave the machine down maybe. Right now we need to get it usable.

 

[FlyFishn]

Doing the math on the solenoid threads -
10 threads in 1/4" - the caliper points are 1/4" apart:

That means the pitch is 40tpi. That is more fine than "fine thread" 1/4" at 32tpi. That might be next to impossible to find a bolt for.

Next idea - using a ball bearing to close off the ports when the solenoid shaft is in.

That or trying to get the solenoid operational.

 

[FlyFishn]

Found a diagram of a similar Marvel-Shebler carb.

They call out the "power adjusting needle" in the location where the solenoid + needle adjusting screw on the top sit.

Now I realize the whole needle rod is missing on mine = blows my whole theory out of the water.

Maybe it will run the way it is. We'll see. Might get too much fuel.

 

[DJ54]

There "should" be a brass tag somewhere on the carb with a model number. Should be riveted on the side, or on the bottom. Case/IH shows 3 different ones were used. But use that model number on the carb to find parts. Maybe type into Google the model number diagram, or the model number power adjusting needle. May come up with a diagram showing part numbers. Just be sure it is that model number you have. You'll probably get a ton of hits with M-S in the search. Might refine it by putting it in quotation marks. That way you'll get the exact part you need, even if going with the solenoid. Neither seem to be cheap.

 

[FlyFishn]

There "should" be a brass tag somewhere on the carb with a model number. Should be riveted on the side, or on the bottom.

I'm not where the machine is sitting so I can't easily check. I went through my pictures and the only ones I have show the assembled carb from the direction it is mounted on the tractor or the insides. The only indicators I see on it are the "Marvel-Schebler" in the cast flange that bolts to the intake manifold. It may be thursday at the soonest I can get back to it, or if not this weekend. We'll see what I find.

 

[Richard]

Don't know your terrain. We've got a (diesel) 444 here. Though it's now parked in the woods (wife's cousin next door owns it), I'm the primary person who's used it for the last 25 years prior to being banished.

I've always felt whomever designed the brakes on that should be disinterred, biach slapped, then maybe fed to the fish. The brakes on this thing are useless. Not being the owner, I finally went to fix some things on it, brakes being one. I got them improved but never really working like I'd want. Fortunately, we've got hills and to slow down or stop, you can (if needed) steer into the slope to do so.

Long winded way to say, if the brakes on yours are the same ball & ramp style, AND your terrain allows, I'd put the brakes down the list of issues to worry about. Perhaps you've done that. If I were to drag this out of the woods to get it functional again, the brakes would get some attention but they'd probably be the last thing I'd worry about. The machine pretty much stops on a dime when you clutch, unless of course, you're pointed up/down a hill.... I was always able to adjust for that reality.

 

[FlyFishn]

Case/IH shows 3 different ones were used.

For what it is worth, also, the IH-201 shop manual (which covers many machine models, of which the 444 is included in the series) shows 5 different carbs:

Zenith 67x7
Zenith 267x9 assembly # 12685
Zenith 267x9 assembly # 12758
Marvel-Schebler TSX748
Marvel-Schebler TSX857

Based on that I am assuming, at least it is very likely, that what I have is one of the latter 2. However, that may not describe "every" C-153 engine config. I do know from past experience that IH and CNH may show consecutive SN's of equipment, but if you get down to the production level history you find that short SN ranges (sometimes 2-5 units) were held back and parts were swapped in production. We found this with wiring harnesses and valves in some 90's to earlier 2000 machines. The earlier machines had the "new" harnesses/parts.

What I can also say is those SN swaps were generally within about 10-20 from either end of a production run/series. My SN is about 250 above the 1968 model year break, but that does not describe any "production run" break where they may have supposedly implemented any changes.

 

[DJ54]

I've always felt whomever designed the brakes on that should be disinterred, biach slapped, then maybe fed to the fish. The brakes on this thing are useless. Not being the owner, I finally went to fix some things on it, brakes being one. I got them improved but never really working like I'd want.

I have to agree those style brakes can give you fits, but unless the bull pinion shaft seal is leaking, they can be cleaned up well and work like new again. I have 4 IH tractors here with that style brakes on them and also had and old Case 310B backhoe with the same style brakes but got them all working very well.

It seems that at times, pressing on the brake pedal is like stepping on a plum, and you get very little braking action. The brake discs get what appears to be a waxy surface when you get them out. If they are not oil soaked, you can buff the surface with 100/120 sandpaper and rough them up a little. I now use my air angled die grinder with the 2" roloc disc head, and generic medium fiber type roloc gasket removal discs. 10X faster than using sandpaper and leaves a slightly rough surface.

The other problem is when you press on a brake pedal a wheel will lock up and most times stay locked. Putting it in reverse will unlock it. This is due to the large ball bearings getting rusty, along with the ramps. These too can be cleaned up with sandpaper, or as I now use my die grinder with disc. They do sell new ball bearings which I believe are 7/8" in dia. I did replace the ones on the Case hoe because they were really pitted. Everything else just buffed off. The 2" disc will clean up 90% of the ramps, just the very bottom needs finished with fine sandpaper (I use wet & dry 120 grit as it seems to hold up better and more flexible).

I then coat both with a light film of never-seize, using my fingers. Just put a small blob on with the brush, then use my fingers to smear it around. Too much and it could get on the braking surfaces. Reassemble and adjust, you're good to go.

You do have to be careful when removing the little coil springs as the hook will break off and you'll need new ones. But some are rusted so bad in the hook they will break no matter how careful, or just plain worn. With having that many tractors with them on, I have a few spares in the parts cabinet for just in case.

I've found over the years this happens more on my Super C's than any of the others, and normally after 3-4 years and going through the Spring sweats here. When it's been cold, then get a day when it warms up into the 50's-60's and condensation forms on the cold metal setting in an outside unheated building. Normally they will get a little sticky before getting to the full locking stage. When I notice it, I know it's time to take it to the shop and do some cleanup.

I bought my air angle die grinder at Harbor Freight back in the late 80's when they were mail order only, and grinder was made in Japan, not China. I must say, it still works very well and use it quite often. Got the Roloc head at NAPA, but there are many brands now for a lot less. The discs I get at a local Swapper's Day over the Labor Day weekend off a tool guy there. I get 50 in a box for $20, but get a break is I buy 2. They seem to last just as long as the 3M brand which are a lot more expensive. This tool guy also sells them on ebay, but for a little more to cover cost of shipping. I go through a lot here, as it seems I'm always working on something. Great for buffing/cleaning gasket mating surfaces. Sure beats doing it by hand.

Just some food for thought on the grinder/Roloc style head. One of those tools once you use one, you'll wonder how you got along without one. Did a quick check and for around $50-$60 you can get one of the better, not professional grinders, a generic Roloc head, and a box of 50 aftermarket discs. That is if you have a decent compressor to run it.

 

[DJ54]

For what it is worth, also, the IH-201 shop manual (which covers many machine models, of which the 444 is included in the series) shows 5 different carbs:

Zenith 67x7
Zenith 267x9 assembly # 12685
Zenith 267x9 assembly # 12758
Marvel-Schebler TSX748
Marvel-Schebler TSX857

Based on that I am assuming, at least it is very likely, that what I have is one of the latter 2. However, that may not describe "every" C-153 engine config. I do know from past experience that IH and CNH may show consecutive SN's of equipment, but if you get down to the production level history you find that short SN ranges (sometimes 2-5 units) were held back and parts were swapped in production. We found this with wiring harnesses and valves in some 90's to earlier 2000 machines. The earlier machines had the "new" harnesses/parts.

What I can also say is those SN swaps were generally within about 10-20 from either end of a production run/series. My SN is about 250 above the 1968 model year break, but that does not describe any "production run" break where they may have supposedly implemented any changes.

I thought it was strange no pages of the C-153 engine only, showed the solenoid. That's where your hard copy parts book should come in. I don't know if they used the manual adjusting needle on any models before using a solenoid on carbs with the same model number. But using that model number will be the key to finding what you need.

I'm thinking there may be a part number on the other side of the top mounting flange where you can see M-S cast in. Using that number may help you find a parts diagram for it, if only used one that one particular carb model. Could be one cast into the bowl also.

I just picked one out of the three listed in the parts catalog and did a search using the model number. That particular carb. was used on a lot of different brands and models. Too much for me to go through just being a spectator.

 

[FlyFishn]

Ive been back at it this weekend. I got the start and ignition circuits re-wired.

The ignition coil has power to it.

I wired the ballast resistor in the circuit as described in the schematics.

The spark plug wires and coil to distributor wire needed replaced. So I went to a parts place and picked up a set. It says "points compatible", however thr wires have between 5-20k ohms resistance. They are not copper - they are some kind of composite.

I will do some more work today - like cleaning the spark plugs a bit and firming up the plug wire connections to see if that will get things to "go". However, I am not too sure on the composite "wires".

I did polish up the points etc a bit too.

Thoughts?

 

[DJ54]

I'm not fond of composite wires but that's me. NAPA has a kit you can make your own, cut to fit, and put ends on. Just remember to slide boots on first. Some silicone spray helps them slip right on. Since you already have them, might as well run them and see how long they last. If they ever give up the ghost, find a set of copper core. I have a couple tractors here with copper core wires that have been on for 40 & 50 years. Still going strong.

 

[FlyFishn]

Here are some more pictures from this weekend.

This weekend's progress:
Ran new wires to new key switch - starter and ignition
Ran new spark plug wires between distributor, ignition coil, and spark plugs
Cleaned all contacts/points in the ignition circuit

I put a resettable 10a fuse on the battery side of the key switch so all the new wiring is protected with it.

I did not mess with the alternator. At some point I will need to wire that, and the voltage regulator, back up to the battery but I didn't mess with it at this phase.

Ignore the wire colors. I used what I had. I did label things as I went, but the colors aren't of much meaning.

Where I am with it is I am not getting power to the spark plugs. The breaker contact sparks when we crank it. I had an indicator light that I put in line with one of the plugs and it only faintly dimmed when I blocked the light and got it as dark as I could see it. When I grounded out a spark plug outside of the cylinder (without the indicator light - straight plug wire only) there was no spark.

So at this point we are down to replacing the distributor guts.

After striking out at 2 auto parts places in town we got a lead on an old equipment shop further out that might be able to help us.

We did swap the 12v ignition coil to see if that would help, but nope. The place where the machine is right now had several of them around (they work on old cars). I still think the original one we had off the machine is still good - just the condenser and breaker contact/lifter are what need replaced.

Thoughts?

Also - a bit of a bone head move - I took pictures of all the stages of the distributor coming off. That saved me initially with clocking it after cleaning the contacts. However, when I pulled it off later to take it with us (after cranking it to try it) I did not do the same - I just took it off. So now I don't have a visual way to clock it back to how it came off. I'll have to find some other method. Hopefully one that doesn't require taking the rest of the tractor apart to get to see marks on a gear I can't see unless I take it apart?

 

[DJ54]

Pretty easy to do, but you may have to remove the white side panel on the left side to see them. There should be 2 timing marks on the crankshaft pulley. First mark should be the advance mark, second one should be TDC. From the front, engine should turn clockwise. If you can find those marks, it'd be an idea to mark that second one with a white mark, either chalk, or paint pen to make it permanent. There should also be some sort of pointer mounted on the timing gear cover.

Remove #1 plug (plug closest to the front) with a finger over the hole bump starter until you feel compression. You may be able to bump the starter a couple times to get it closer to TDC or turn by hand to get the second mark aligned with the pointer.

Might be an idea to pull the dist. cap before doing so and note rotor button rotation. Some turn CW, others CCW. This is important when installing plug wires.

Pull distributor (I'm assuming this has a 2 lug connection into the timing gears) and engage distributor with rotor button pointing to #1 cyl. on the cap. On a 4 cyl. #1 is top right looking from the back. A mark on the outside of the distributor lining up with #1 hole on cap. A felt pen is quickest/easiest. On most 4 cyl. distributors the top 2 holes should be pretty close to being level/straight across. Distributor should engage lugs pretty close to this location. Snug bolts just tight enough to secure, but still rotate the distributor.

At this point, turn ignition switch on. With #1 plug grounded out on block, rotate distributor slowly until you see a spark, or hear it snap. Snug distributor down and turn off ignition switch. You should be at dead nut TDC.

Noting rotor button rotation, check plug wire installation by rotation 1-3-4-2. It should be close enough to start/run. From that point, you'll need a timing light to set the advance, have no idea what that is, but should be in your service manual.

Looking at the picture showing the cap & wires, it looks to be 30º to 45º out of time. Stud from coil should be sticking nearly straight out. You may want to try dressing the points, re-gap, dress the rotor button, and definitely check the lugs inside the cap. They can get a buildup from ionization and cause a weak spark or miss-fire. You can scrape that off with your knife to get by for now.

As for points & condenser I'd highly suggest either OEM, or a set from NAPA (Echlin). I've seen numerous threads and experienced it myself on a Ferguson 35 I recently acquired. The rub blocks have a tendency to bend/wear after a while changing the points gap. It was so bad on this Ferguson you had to really look close to even see them moving.

One other thing, a short screw starter w/magnet is a very handy tool for installing points & condenser to get all of the screws started. Once started you can snug with a stubby screwdriver. On some models the oil filter canister is pretty close to the distributor and a long screw starter won't quite fit. One with a magnet on the other end comes in handy when a screw comes off and if you're lucky drops to the bottom inside the distributor. It does happen.

 

[FlyFishn]

I got a tip from a friend that has been bouncing some ideas off another guy he knows that works on old tractors also that Tractor Supply may have some "tune up" or "refresh" kits for various ignition systems.

It appears they have one for some early IH machines. See link. From the parts I have - it does appear this will work. The cap and the points look very very close, if not identical. However, the kit shows it goes to 1962 model years - our machine is a 1968.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/tisco-master-tune-up-kit-1238096

 

[DJ54]

I believe this is one of the brands I mentioned where the quality may be questionable. Not sure if TSC sells any other brands though. I have read in numerous threads where the rub blocks get soft and bend after running a while, but not sure how long. I did have that experience on the M-F TO-35 I acquired last Spring. The rub block appeared to be softened by the grease you get in the small capsule to lube it.

For giggles I ran the part numbers using the Case/IH online parts store and actually other than the spark plugs, the OEM set is less expensive, being you get the spark plugs (Autolite 386's) through and auto parts stores. Advance, or Auto Zone has them for $2.49 ea. Good ole' Wally World has them for $1.98. A set of 4 at TSC alone is $34.99 which is ridiculous. I also checked Rock Auto and they have a really good price on the 386's for $1.01. ea, but shipping would bite you there for one set. Being I have 10 tractors that use that plug, I'm tempted to buy a couple boxes myself.

Bane Welker at Plain City shows having tune-up parts in stock, although they have superseded part numbers. Case IH | BREAKER | 407018R91 | MyCNH US Store

As mentioned, you can call them and set up a credit card account, and they will ship to you. Here they ship UPS and usually have it in a day or two depending on what time of day you call. With gas prices bouncing around you can't hardly drive to get parts for what they can ship for, unless you need them asap. If I'm in a pinch like with hay down, and rain in the forecast yeah, I'll make the trip.

It's not so much on the price, but quality. Tough to beat OEM parts, at least from what I've gotten in the past, but it's been years since I've bought a tune-up kit. Last set I put in one of the Super C's has been 8-10 years ago. But had a new set in the parts cabinet for in case something happened when making hay, which is what happened. I did get a new set to replace them, but costs have gone up since then like everything else.

But get what feels right for you, I'm just speaking from past experience.

 

[FlyFishn]

Well I ordered all the parts for the distributor (cap, condenser, rotor, points). The dealer had 2 of them and 2 had to be ordered. We should have them by the end of the week. Overall they are about $105 minus plugs. The kit from TSC with plugs is $70. So they are a good bit more expensive for OEM's, but we need the machine as reliable as we can get it so I think the extra is worth it here.

 

[FlyFishn]

being you get the spark plugs (Autolite 386's) through and auto parts stores. Advance, or Auto Zone has them for $2.49 ea. Good ole' Wally World has them for $1.98. A set of 4 at TSC alone is $34.99 which is ridiculous. I also checked Rock Auto and they have a really good price on the 386's for $1.01. ea, but shipping would bite you there for one set.

The plugs I have now are Champion UD16's. Is there any merit to sticking to the same? Switching to the Autolites you mention? Or something else? On my small engines I am converting to NGK ruthenium's as they are supposed to be better for natural gas (generator engines). But other than that, in a gas engine I'd think a plug is a plug for the most part.

 

[DJ54]

Well I ordered all the parts for the distributor (cap, condenser, rotor, points). The dealer had 2 of them and 2 had to be ordered. We should have them by the end of the week. Overall they are about $105 minus plugs. The kit from TSC with plugs is $70. So they are a good bit more expensive for OEM's, but we need the machine as reliable as we can get it so I think the extra is worth it here.

Prices must be different than what is posted on their site.

 

[DJ54]

The plugs I have now are Champion UD16's. Is there any merit to sticking to the same? Switching to the Autolites you mention? Or something else? On my small engines I am converting to NGK ruthenium's as they are supposed to be better for natural gas (generator engines). But other than that, in a gas engine I'd think a plug is a plug for the most part.

The only problem I've had with Champions is they will carbon up after running a while due to a coating they put on at the factory, at least they did. We had a member of the tractor club that was a mechanic for South Central Power, he told us to get a sandblaster style plug cleaner, clean them up and you'll not have any more problems, unless you're burning oil bad. He was right, I've been running the same set of D-15Y's in my one Super C for 20 years and it gets used maybe 50 hours a year, just enough I change oil in the Spring. While I'm at it, I pull the plugs clean, re-gap and reinstall. Just preventive maintenance I do on several here in the Spring when it's too muddy to do anything else. My go to tractors for most chores here. When I go to use one, I'm 99% sure I can get on anyone and go do what I need to do.

I bought my cleaner from TP Tools here in Ohio 40+ years ago, and still use it. I didn't mount it to the wall, although you can. I use then put back in a tool cabinet to keep it clean for the next time. I think I gave $10-$11 for it then, they're around $33 now. Mine had paid for itself many times over.