National loader #16 Hyd control valve problems

[650gSatoh]

Bear in mind that the valve in your photos is not configured for power beyond. That isn't a concern if the oil supply and return don't involve the three point, steering, or any other hydraulic functions. Is that the case?

And yes, the relief valve setting on any new valve you install will need to be set to match your system requirements.

Good to know. Is it best practice to have a pressure gauge plumbed into the system to see exactly what its set at and incase of problems?

If so where would I plumb it?

The 3 pt is involved. In those last photos it shows the 2 hoses coming off a block which is the hydraulic tank. In that same photo you see the linkages for the 3 pt lift lever. This is how the system was setup when the loader was installed. From what I have seen online all Satoh 650G were setup this way.

They did have an option of power assist steering which could be factory or field fitted. It had a priority design valve which was installed prior to the FEL control in the supply line.

Seeing you raised the question of power steering I will bring one up of my own.

I would like to install a 5 port hydrostatic/orbitrol steering valve from a John Deere 420 tractor. I understand this unit was used in many different models and was made by Ross. I have seen this retrofitted to other tractors.

My steering box was not in good shape when I first got the tractor. It has developed some major cracks. I understand this can happen due to an FEL being put on these smaller tractors with armstrong steering.

I will install a ram/cylinder in place of the drag link. From my research I figured I would install an adjustable variable flow control valve in the supply line to the FEL. This will provide the required flow to the steering valve with the excess going to the FEL. Once I stop steering the FEL will get full flow.

Hydraulic Adjustable Variable Flow Control Valve w/ Relief, 0-16 GPM, 1/2" NPT

Hydraulic Adjustable Variable Flow Control Valve w/ Relief, 0-16 GPM, 1/2” NPT

summit-hydraulics.com

Do you know if the above way I plan to install this will work? It is how I have seen it accomplished. Im guessing my tractor with implements weighs around 3300lbs.

My system does only supply 4.1g/min and from my research the JD valve requires around 2g/min. I know my FEL would be really slow if I tried to use it whilst steering, but I don't generally do much steering when using the bucket. I use the bucket for moving compost, wood chips and dirt around my 5 acre property.

I also have a box blade for trail maintenance etc.

When the factory installed power steering they increased the hydraulic pump to 5.82 g/min but if field installed the pump was only increased to 4.5 g/min.

I did consider installing a saginaw engine driven pump purely for the steering but there really isn't the room.

I'm good with fabrication it's the hydraulic system design requirements that I have little knowledge of.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Check your PM inbox.

 

[rScotty]

Good to know. Is it best practice to have a pressure gauge plumbed into the system to see exactly what its set at and incase of problems?

If so where would I plumb it?

The 3 pt is involved. In those last photos it shows the 2 hoses coming off a block which is the hydraulic tank. In that same photo you see the linkages for the 3 pt lift lever. This is how the system was setup when the loader was installed. From what I have seen online all Satoh 650G were setup this way.

They did have an option of power assist steering which could be factory or field fitted. It had a priority design valve which was installed prior to the FEL control in the supply line.

Seeing you raised the question of power steering I will bring one up of my own.

I would like to install a 5 port hydrostatic/orbitrol steering valve from a John Deere 420 tractor. I understand this unit was used in many different models and was made by Ross. I have seen this retrofitted to other tractors.

My steering box was not in good shape when I first got the tractor. It has developed some major cracks. I understand this can happen due to an FEL being put on these smaller tractors with armstrong steering.

I will install a ram/cylinder in place of the drag link. From my research I figured I would install an adjustable variable flow control valve in the supply line to the FEL. This will provide the required flow to the steering valve with the excess going to the FEL. Once I stop steering the FEL will get full flow.

Hydraulic Adjustable Variable Flow Control Valve w/ Relief, 0-16 GPM, 1/2" NPT

Hydraulic Adjustable Variable Flow Control Valve w/ Relief, 0-16 GPM, 1/2” NPT

summit-hydraulics.com

Do you know if the above way I plan to install this will work? It is how I have seen it accomplished. Im guessing my tractor with implements weighs around 3300lbs.

My system does only supply 4.1g/min and from my research the JD valve requires around 2g/min. I know my FEL would be really slow if I tried to use it whilst steering, but I don't generally do much steering when using the bucket. I use the bucket for moving compost, wood chips and dirt around my 5 acre property.

I also have a box blade for trail maintenance etc.

When the factory installed power steering they increased the hydraulic pump to 5.82 g/min but if field installed the pump was only increased to 4.5 g/min.

I did consider installing a saginaw engine driven pump purely for the steering but there really isn't the room.

I'm good with fabrication it's the hydraulic system design requirements that I have little knowledge of.

Those are all good questions, and 20 years ago we used to hear them more than now. But then your Satoh is also from an earlier era, so it all nmakes sense.

First of all, some notes on your replacement loader control valve. You say you have 1/2" NPT fittings on your hoses & I see that Summit has a European made - whatever that means - replacement two spool control valve one for $109 that is rated to 11 GPM and it has SAE O ring ports. It should work.
The port sizes are never a problem. You simply need thread adapters to go from one thread type to another. In fact your old control valve looks in the photo like it has thread adapters already. If they fit, they are reusable. If not, order the right size.
ALWAYS order the PB adapter sleeve and theaded plug with any FEL control valve. They are specific to each model of control valve and if you don't one with the valve you never can. There is no downside to having the PB port & sleeve option. It gives you an additional hydraulic power option for power steering or a grabber.

Then if you go over to surpluscenter.com/hydraulics you will see that they sell a very similar overstock two spoolcontrol valve made by a well known company - Prince - for around $300. Why the difference in price? One reason is that inexpensive control valves tend to have O rings in some places where the more expensive ones have lapped metal sealing surfaces. Lapped sealing surfaces last far longer. Another is that the more expensive valves tend to be more precise about metering. The Prince is 8 GPM and most of their valves have small GPM steps than cheaper valves.

But either will work. Get the right thread adapters and the PB option. I don't use a detent myself.
Oh, on the relief valve. Ask about the setting. Most of these valves are standard 3000 psi max working pressure, so the relief valve will come set ten to twenty % below that. If so, no change is required.

I'll hit some of your other questions later. Good to know that you can fabricate.
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

Good to know. Is it best practice to have a pressure gauge plumbed into the system to see exactly what its set at and incase of problems?

If so where would I plumb it?

I do that on most of my tractors. You want the gauge to be a 5000 psi min. glycerin-damped type and use a hydraulic "T" to place it in the line between the hydrauic output and the IN on the FEL control valve.
You can even calibrate it to show you the weight in the bucket.

The 3 pt is involved. In those last photos it shows the 2 hoses coming off a block which is the hydraulic tank. In that same photo you see the linkages for the 3 pt lift lever. This is how the system was setup when the loader was installed. From what I have seen online all Satoh 650G were setup this way.

I do not see two lines coming off the control and going to a tank??

The setup with the tractor's own hydraulic pump working the 3pt and an optional power steering through a priority valve (not a diverter valve, a priority+diverter) was common.
Sometimes that same pump also powered a FEL, and those - hopefully - had larger GPM pumps.
BTW, a pump with low GPM flow rate still has the same pressure as a larger one. It does the same work, just slower.

A better option offered by some dealers on some loaders was an option to use a front crankshaft driven pump for the FEL only. It was an expensive option at the time. I know because I ordered that on our Yanmar about 1982. Some of those that used that system also used one or both of the loader uprights as the sump for the front-mounted FEL pump.

They did have an option of power assist steering which could be factory or field fitted. It had a priority design valve which was installed prior to the FEL control in the supply line.

Seeing you raised the question of power steering I will bring one up of my own.

I would like to install a 5 port hydrostatic/orbitrol steering valve from a John Deere 420 tractor. I understand this unit was used in many different models and was made by Ross. I have seen this retrofitted to other tractors.

My steering box was not in good shape when I first got the tractor. It has developed some major cracks. I understand this can happen due to an FEL being put on these smaller tractors with armstrong steering.

I will install a ram/cylinder in place of the drag link. From my research I figured I would install an adjustable variable flow control valve in the supply line to the FEL. This will provide the required flow to the steering valve with the excess going to the FEL. Once I stop steering the FEL will get full flow.

Hydraulic Adjustable Variable Flow Control Valve w/ Relief, 0-16 GPM, 1/2" NPT

Hydraulic Adjustable Variable Flow Control Valve w/ Relief, 0-16 GPM, 1/2” NPT

summit-hydraulics.com

Do you know if the above way I plan to install this will work? It is how I have seen it accomplished. Im guessing my tractor with implements weighs around 3300lbs.

Good luck with the power steering. Rather than orbital/HST, most of the small tractors originally had a powered drag link. I was always going to do that using the complete drag link kit (an option) for a JD 650...but never did. If doing it today I'd probably use a hydrostatic kit like the model A Ford hotrodders do & power it from a priority diverter valve off the tractor 3pt hydraulics.

Power Steering, grappling, and rear remotes are all reasons to get the PB option on your replacement Loader Control Valve.
rScotty

rScotty

 

[650gSatoh]

Those are all good questions, and 20 years ago we used to hear them more than now. But then your Satoh is also from an earlier era, so it all nmakes sense.

First of all, some notes on your replacement loader control valve. You say you have 1/2" NPT fittings on your hoses & I see that Summit has a European made - whatever that means - replacement two spool control valve one for $109 that is rated to 11 GPM and it has SAE O ring ports. It should work.
The port sizes are never a problem. You simply need thread adapters to go from one thread type to another. In fact your old control valve looks in the photo like it has thread adapters already. If they fit, they are reusable. If not, order the right size.
ALWAYS order the PB adapter sleeve and theaded plug with any FEL control valve. They are specific to each model of control valve and if you don't one with the valve you never can. There is no downside to having the PB port & sleeve option. It gives you an additional hydraulic power option for power steering or a grabber.

Then if you go over to surpluscenter.com/hydraulics you will see that they sell a very similar overstock two spoolcontrol valve made by a well known company - Prince - for around $300. Why the difference in price? One reason is that inexpensive control valves tend to have O rings in some places where the more expensive ones have lapped metal sealing surfaces. Lapped sealing surfaces last far longer. Another is that the more expensive valves tend to be more precise about metering. The Prince is 8 GPM and most of their valves have small GPM steps than cheaper valves.

But either will work. Get the right thread adapters and the PB option. I don't use a detent myself.
Oh, on the relief valve. Ask about the setting. Most of these valves are standard 3000 psi max working pressure, so the relief valve will come set ten to twenty % below that. If so, no change is required.

I'll hit some of your other questions later. Good to know that you can fabricate.
rScotty

Those are all good questions, and 20 years ago we used to hear them more than now. But then your Satoh is also from an earlier era, so it all nmakes sense.

First of all, some notes on your replacement loader control valve. You say you have 1/2" NPT fittings on your hoses & I see that Summit has a European made - whatever that means - replacement two spool control valve one for $109 that is rated to 11 GPM and it has SAE O ring ports. It should work.
The port sizes are never a problem. You simply need thread adapters to go from one thread type to another. In fact your old control valve looks in the photo like it has thread adapters already. If they fit, they are reusable. If not, order the right size.
ALWAYS order the PB adapter sleeve and theaded plug with any FEL control valve. They are specific to each model of control valve and if you don't one with the valve you never can. There is no downside to having the PB port & sleeve option. It gives you an additional hydraulic power option for power steering or a grabber.

Then if you go over to surpluscenter.com/hydraulics you will see that they sell a very similar overstock two spoolcontrol valve made by a well known company - Prince - for around $300. Why the difference in price? One reason is that inexpensive control valves tend to have O rings in some places where the more expensive ones have lapped metal sealing surfaces. Lapped sealing surfaces last far longer. Another is that the more expensive valves tend to be more precise about metering. The Prince is 8 GPM and most of their valves have small GPM steps than cheaper valves.

But either will work. Get the right thread adapters and the PB option. I don't use a detent myself.
Oh, on the relief valve. Ask about the setting. Most of these valves are standard 3000 psi max working pressure, so the relief valve will come set ten to twenty % below that. If so, no change is required.

I'll hit some of your other questions later. Good to know that you can fabricate.
rScotty

I did look at some of the 8gpm valves and they were all considerably more expensive. I know you get what you pay for and if this was a machine I relied on for a living I would spend the money. At my infrequent usage I would hope one of the cheaper valves should last me 10 yrs.

Yes my valve does have adapters for the npt hose connection. I will wait until I have the new valve in hand and see if they fit. When I replaced those hoses I also had to cut the hard lines further down the fel where they T off. They were rusted and one had sprung a leak. So I got all the fittings etc and made up new T's.

I will make sure to order the power beyond fitting with the valve then. "Harry" has been providing me with some valuable info via pm.

Here is the link to the steering retro fit I would like to accomplish.

Power steering conversion on my kubota B8200

I have no idea how I "double quoted" what you wrote or how to get rid of one of them

 

[650gSatoh]

I do that on most of my tractors. You want the gauge to be a 5000 psi min. glycerin-damped type and use a hydraulic "T" to place it in the line between the hydrauic output and the IN on the FEL control valve.
You can even calibrate it to show you the weight in the bucket.

I do not see two lines coming off the control and going to a tank??

The setup with the tractor's own hydraulic pump working the 3pt and an optional power steering through a priority valve (not a diverter valve, a priority+diverter) was common.
Sometimes that same pump also powered a FEL, and those - hopefully - had larger GPM pumps.
BTW, a pump with low GPM flow rate still has the same pressure as a larger one. It does the same work, just slower.

A better option offered by some dealers on some loaders was an option to use a front crankshaft driven pump for the FEL only. It was an expensive option at the time. I know because I ordered that on our Yanmar about 1982. Some of those that used that system also used one or both of the loader uprights as the sump for the front-mounted FEL pump.

Good luck with the power steering. Rather than orbital/HST, most of the small tractors originally had a powered drag link. I was always going to do that using the complete drag link kit (an option) for a JD 650...but never did. If doing it today I'd probably use a hydrostatic kit like the model A Ford hotrodders do & power it from a priority diverter valve off the tractor 3pt hydraulics.

Power Steering, grappling, and rear remotes are all reasons to get the PB option on your replacement Loader Control Valve.
rScotty

rScotty

In my second photo you will see the 2 hoses coming out of an aluminum block.

Ok, on the gauge, that makes sense now to put it there and I can see the benefit.

If my steering box was not so badly damaged I would look to put the power assist on. Funnily enough I am a Ford hot rodder and I have quite a few of those rams I have taken off my cars, as they leak and are vague on the road. But would be great on a tractor.

 

[rScotty]

I see the aluminum block now. Not sure what it is. But I have a similar one in my junk box.

This is just a guess, but I think what you have there may be half of an two-part assembly that was used many years ago nwhen a tractor was expected to maybe be fitted with a loader or power steering and they wanted the option touse the tractor hydraulic pump instead of the add-on front engine crankshaft-driven pump.

If so, the other half of that aluminum plate would have fit beneath it like a sandwich, and contained different diameter drillings. It's function was a poor man's proportional diverter plate in that it used different diameter internal passages instead of adjustable valving.

Like I said, just a guess. If that is what it is, leave it. It may be functioning as nothing more than a connector.

 

[650gSatoh]

Here is an overview of the system. The aluminum block with the 2 hoses is item U.

 

[rScotty]

Here is an overview of the system. The aluminum block with the 2 hoses is item U.View attachment 871055

Well that's an interesting diagram. It seems to show the front crankshaft pulley as the only hydraulic pump in the system. If so, that's completely different from every other compact 4wd tractor of that era.
And if so, that aluminum block probably really is a proportional divider/diverter plate just as discussed.

Does the Satoh engine not have a typical tractor hydraulic pump? What kind of engine does it have?
From the diagram, that whole pump and pto seem to be assembled from parts from something else...
What are G & H on the diagram?

None of that affects the hydraulic valve and PS solutions we've already dscussed. The FEL control valve doesn't care where it gets pressure from, and from the valve anything else can be powered by the PB port.
rScotty

 

[650gSatoh]

Well that's an interesting diagram. It seems to show the front crankshaft pulley as the only hydraulic pump in the system. If so, that's completely different from every other compact 4wd tractor of that era.
And if so, that aluminum block probably really is a proportional divider/diverter plate just as discussed.

Does the Satoh engine not have a typical tractor hydraulic pump? What kind of engine does it have?
From the diagram, that whole pump and pto seem to be assembled from parts from something else...
What are G & H on the diagram?

None of that affects the hydraulic valve and PS solutions we've already dscussed. The FEL control valve doesn't care where it gets pressure from, and from the valve anything else can be powered by the PB port.
rScotty

The engine is a 4cyl gas Mazda PB100. It's rated around 25hp. 3 fwd gears, high and low transmission with a rear diff lock. It is 2wd only. The crank pump is the only one.

The factory power steering flow divider for this tractor was installed on the supply/pressure line "I" just about where it shows the break in the line on the diagram.

G and H. From memory G controls the speed the 3 pt moves up and down. I need to find my small user manual and will get back to you with what it states. I don't remember if it affects the speed of the FEL. I will need to check that out. Edit: it does control the speed, the factory calls it a flow control valve.

H is an allen key plug. I noticed when I found that diagram online it states it's for a pressure gauge. I looked at the tractor and it would need to be a small gauge as there are linkages above it which control the 3 pt.

The 1st photo of the hydraulic tank area shows this. It is a red V shaped valve. It has a large pipe plug on the right hand side. The repair manual doesn't mention the reason for the large plug or what you could use it for.