With the car fire I posted previously, I've been wondering if it would have been worthwhile to direct both extingushers UNDER the car, hoping that the draft would pick up the material and snuff it out like putting out a chimney fire. It's too late now.
Parking EVs indoors
- Thread starter 3930dave
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bdhsfz6
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No loss of human life but the fire took 2 cats and a parrot. It happened mid day when most were at work, otherwise, it could have been much worse.
MAX-24-Dean
Veteran Member
That's the same information I just got out of a continueing education class.
INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS says that fully electric vehicles are 10x LESS likely to catch fire than conventional vehicles.
this makes me feel good.
Mathematically, X times less than something without hard data always makes me wonder if someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes.
So lets say that of the approx. 170,000 vehicle fire per year EV's are 10 times less likely to catch fire.
An average ICE vehicle fire takes about 30 minutes to extinguish and uses the resources of one company engine with a 700 to 1000 gallon tank. A back up engine usually arrives and is not typically utilized in putting out the fire. So lets say it takes 2 units to work this call.
An EV fire takes a up to 4 units and 3 hours or a little more to extingish the fire. Most of the water is being directed to cool the batteries so there is less thermal run away. The trucks have to go to hydrants to refill, this is why they need more units to respond.
Then someone has to hang around and watch in the case that "stranded energy" in the batteries does not restart the fire when the tow vehicle moves the EV. Then some EV's need the firetruck to follow the Tow vehicle in case the fire restarts. Once the EV is on the ground the fire unit can return to station. So a fire unit can be considered "on site" or in "mop up" for 5 hours or more depending on the make of the EV and the manufacturers written guidance.
Why do you think a major EV manufacturer is switching to a safer Lithium chemistry for thier cars?
ponytug
Super Member
Once you have hot metal that exceeds the flash point of the fuel, directing fire extinguishers under the car won't do anything much, especially if the extinguisher is a dry powder type.
A few years back, we were standing around a small flammable liquid fire (unplanned) that we had managed to gently puff out with a CO2 extinguisher (it was a couple of quarts burning in a container on a hot plate,
...don't ask). The rather full of himself boss ran in, said something like "WTF? Why haven't you idiots grabbed the container off the hot plate?" and then proceeded to reach out to do so before anyone could say anything. As I said, he had a strong, and, I think, unwarranted belief in his abilities. At which point his movements wafted some fumes down toward the hot plate and "poof!" the fumes reignited, sending a Hollywood worthy flamethrower back up toward the ceiling, nearly taking his eyebrows off. None of us actually laughed, but the general smirks were definitely along the lines of "Oh, yeah? Just who exactly is the idiot here?" He was the author of the SOP that had enabled the fire... He retired a year or two later, but I swear that I had nothing to do with it. As Sgt. Schultz used to say, "I know nothing. I didn't even get up this morning..."The point being with a flammable liquid fire you have to either cool it below the flash point, or completely cover the surface with foam or powder. With an under hood fire, there isn't a great way to do either.
@Jstpssng I think that there was never any hope for the car with tools at your disposal. With a closed hood, I think that fighting a fuel fire is next to impossible with a handheld extinguisher.
All the best,
Peter
MAX-24-Dean
Veteran Member
Once some lithium chemistry batteries over heat and catch fire (and thermal runaway happens), they can create there own oxygen and the fire can get much hotter very fast. That's why the manufacturers direct firefighters to cool the batteries with water.
Used to work with Lithium additions to Aluminum smelting cells, some of the guys would "play" with it mixing it with other chemicals that were available just to see what would happen.
It wasn't pretty, I can rememeber driving the ambulance and a guy literally screaming for the whole 30 minute ride to the hospital. Chemical burns are horrible.
Used to work with Lithium additions to Aluminum smelting cells, some of the guys would "play" with it mixing it with other chemicals that were available just to see what would happen.
It wasn't pretty, I can rememeber driving the ambulance and a guy literally screaming for the whole 30 minute ride to the hospital. Chemical burns are horrible.
Grumpycat
Super Member
The problem with lithium fires is the cells provide their own oxygen for combustion. You can't "snuff it out". Massive volumes of water consume heat util hopefully below the combustion temperature.
Grumpycat
Super Member
If you think lithium fires are bad just wait until "the hydrogen revolution".
TheMan419
Veteran Member
They make fire alarms you can put up in garage like conditions. They also make them connected to each other meaning if one alarm goes off they all do. They even make specific ones for dusty environments like a horse barn. So I think pretty easy to put one in the unheated garage and have it connected to another one in the house so they both go off at the same time.
ponytug
Super Member
I think that there are some specific issues with garages and the upper limits on temperature alarms. Many household versions will trip at temperaturs encountered in an unconditioned garage.
@3930dave You might also look over at Mike Holts forum;
e.g.
All the best,
Peter
@3930dave You might also look over at Mike Holts forum;
e.g.
Heat Detection for Energy Storage Systems
I have been volunteered to canvas and (hopefully) find out how other California jurisdictions are handling this wide-open-to-interpretation “reasonable alternatives”. Storage System operating conditions for ambient temperature are usually well above the 100-degree F mentioned in the bulletin...
xenforo.mikeholt.com
All the best,
Peter
ning
Elite Member
Hydrogen fires are overblown
(bad pun, but really)
Hydrogen does ignite very easily, but it also disperses very readily because it's so light. It's so small that it will readily leak out of the slightest cracks in a tank that you'd never notice when holding other fuels.
In addition, it requires a more substantial concentration in air before it becomes flammable (petrol is flammable in air concentrations of 1.4% to 7.6%; hydrogen/air doesn't become flammable until there's more than 4% hydrogen - and remember how easily it disperses! ... caveat: it remains flammable up to 75% concentration...)
Remember, the Hindenburg burned as it did because the ship was made of cotton that was sealed with a mixture that was actually pretty flammable. Had it been made out of some hypothetical non-flammable material, the H2 would've gone *boom-poof* (sound effect for the initial detonation of the H2 that the airship experienced) and then... no more burn as most of the hydrogen would've gone up into the atmosphere before even catching fire. It's even possible that the ship wouldn't've hit the ground, or not that hard, because without the covering being flammable, not as many of the hydrogen compartments would've blown up without the subsidiary fire opening them up and successively catching them on fire too.
I'd take a hydrogen fire over a Li-ion fire any day.
ponytug
Super Member
Gosh, I guess I have a different view on hydrogen. I can see a future for it industrially, but making it safe for the average homeowner is a ways out I think, and likely to stay that way. I think that the energy costs in storage and the complexity of transporting it reduces its viability as a general alternative energy source. For doing chemistry, like making green steel, or chemicals, 
.
To me...a choice between a gas that diffuses quickly, burns without a visible flame, goes through cracks that other gases can't penetrate, and has a wide ignition concentration versus a battery that I know where it is...
I would take the Li-ion battery any day and twice on Sunday.
Then again I have done the old soap bubbles filled with hydrogen and oxygen demonstrations a few times, so I have some experience with the detonation energy. When you get the mix right, it sounds like a .22 going off. Check out thermobaric weapons;
en.wikipedia.org
Would I put a large li-ion battery in, or adjacent to, a sleeping space, or under it? Not an icicles chance. Then again, I don't keep propane or gasoline tanks in the house either...
Some Li-ion battery units have UL approval, which means that they are pretty resistant to ignition from a cell or a pack failure.
Yes, I own a number of large Li-ion batteries, all located where meltdowns won't be a huge deal. (5 for 85kWh-ish) No, I don't own any hydrogen stores...
All the best,
Peter
.To me...a choice between a gas that diffuses quickly, burns without a visible flame, goes through cracks that other gases can't penetrate, and has a wide ignition concentration versus a battery that I know where it is...
I would take the Li-ion battery any day and twice on Sunday.
Then again I have done the old soap bubbles filled with hydrogen and oxygen demonstrations a few times, so I have some experience with the detonation energy. When you get the mix right, it sounds like a .22 going off. Check out thermobaric weapons;
Thermobaric weapon - Wikipedia
Would I put a large li-ion battery in, or adjacent to, a sleeping space, or under it? Not an icicles chance. Then again, I don't keep propane or gasoline tanks in the house either...
Some Li-ion battery units have UL approval, which means that they are pretty resistant to ignition from a cell or a pack failure.
Yes, I own a number of large Li-ion batteries, all located where meltdowns won't be a huge deal. (5 for 85kWh-ish) No, I don't own any hydrogen stores...
All the best,
Peter
Thanks for that, I'll poke around there.....
Canada (folks proximate to Osoyoos not withstanding) usually won't see High temp like your SW deserts, but the Summers here usually can be counted on to melt the igloos
.Industrial temp electronics used to be rated to -40, and plenty of Canuckland can see those temperatures, and that's often when people are using auxiliary heat in a garage - when the cheapo electronics are out of spec.....
Rgds, D.
Ya Pay Yer Money, and Ya Pick Yer Poison..... said in my best imitation of The Duke....
My concern @ work is Lithium, Indoors. That's not a Stay in the (thread) Lane comment BTW..... so long as someone is contributing meaningful info, or at least has a funny post, I have no interest in playing thread-policenongenderspecificperson
.Hydrogen used in IC engines interests me, and in terms of outdoor leaks, I like the general safety of anything lighter than air..... one of the reasons propane is relatively dangerous.
No energy source is w/o risk..... wandering quickly through different energy-source comments here, illustrates the Process I'm trying to initiate @ work.
Understand the Threats and Scale of Impact when Things Go Wrong, and prepare to defend accordingly. Or, site the charge-stations Outdoors in my case.
If you've lived in a rural area long enough to see traffic lights added-in to crossroads (esp. with poor sight-lines), and have even a casual remembrance of a decade+ of local-news, that addition often correlates with xy deaths occurring @ same intersection.
Aside from the massive scale of a Lithium fire, what really concerns me is the speed of ignition and expansion. I'm trying to compile enough compelling evidence to ensure that charging stations for these large EVs are sited Outdoors, so we are not "adding the traffic-lights" after a high human cost.
Rgds, D.
ning
Elite Member
Saw this and thought about this thread: Watch: E-scooter explodes and fire engulfs room
"Video footage shows the moment an e-scooter burst into flames and then exploded while on charge in the kitchen of a north-west London house."
This is what's talked about how lithium ion batteries burn very intensely - this isn't like a typical electrical fire that starts from corrosion or a short and catches other flammables on fire; here we've got what looks like a solid rocket booster burning brightly on its own, and then of course it catches everything else on fire as well.
"Video footage shows the moment an e-scooter burst into flames and then exploded while on charge in the kitchen of a north-west London house."
This is what's talked about how lithium ion batteries burn very intensely - this isn't like a typical electrical fire that starts from corrosion or a short and catches other flammables on fire; here we've got what looks like a solid rocket booster burning brightly on its own, and then of course it catches everything else on fire as well.
Grumpycat
Super Member
How is this any different from the many flammable household chemicals of modern life?
The difference is slapdash Chinese Engineering.
Smart phones and laptops don't go busting into flames. Might be Made in China but not designed there.
Exploding Phones: Why It Happens, How to Prevent It
The average smartphone is unlikely to explode, but it happens. There's not much you can do if shoddy hardware is to blame, but these tips may help prevent your phone from going up in smoke.
Why Do Phones Explode? (And How to Prevent It)
Every few years, exploding phones find a way to dominate the news cycle. And while these accidents are incredibly rare, they’re a bit difficult to understand. Why do phones explode? And how do I know that my phone won’t explode?
www.howtogeek.com
7 warning signs that your smartphone or laptop battery could explode
These are signs you should stop using your device and get it serviced as soon as possible.
www.zdnet.com
Why smart phones catch fire
It spends all day by your side and even sleeps beside you, but all that attention can make your smart phone your worst enemy.
www.ksdk.com
In fairness I could easily find as many instances of fires started because somebody improperly stored or handled their fuel can or gasoline powered device, bur I think you get the point.
There was a case a couple of weeks ago when somebody had a cordless drill in the back of their truck with the sun was beating down and it exploded, burning the truck to a crisp. Pickup truck fire outside Maine governor's mansion blamed on drill battery
This one has me a bit concerned as I normally carry my impact wrench with two batteries; my laptop; and a lithium booster pack. I am a lot more cautious now about how they are stored.
Williy
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I haven't encountered any car/truck fires but experienced some
jet fighter fires and you definitely don't want to get very close
the heat is extremely HOT and you don't have to be very close
to; get a burn!!!!!
willy
jet fighter fires and you definitely don't want to get very close
the heat is extremely HOT and you don't have to be very close
to; get a burn!!!!!
willy
ning
Elite Member
Once again, the difference is that the lithium ion batteries do not require any air for combustion - that's why I compare it to a solid rocket booster, where there's fuel and oxidizer in one unit ready to burn until it's all gone.
That's why you can't put out the battery fires.
ALL flammable household chemicals, once lit, can be put out, given the right extinguisher.
The lithium ion batteries will probably burn in a vacuum.
Do you understand yet?
Master of Destiny..... I have a chance with gasoline or diesel. The fuel stability characteristics don't drastically suddenly change, and if I'm using approved storage containers, then it's up to me to safely transfer the fuel. (Funny, ironic, how the safe storage characteristics of diesel are never mentioned).
Battery failure..... or out of spec or failed Li battery charger < those are wildcards I can do nothing about.
Li charge-control is way more critical than with any other chemistry normal consumers interact with.
Rgds, D.
I also don't know many people who store 5 gallon cans of diesel in their house... unlike the lithium batteries we use to power computers and cordless tools among other things.
