Parking EVs indoors

[Jchonline]

I dont think we can ignore the fact that we are pumping a boatload of electricity into a very large battery while charging...and that is always going to have risk.

Parked gasoline vehicle fires seem to be mostly related to the electrical system...a short, etc.
There is no comparison to the amount of electricity we are pumping into an EV battery when it is charging.

However the EV still comes with all other electrical hazards as well. If they have brake fluid and it leaks then a short of the same type could happen. EVs just have the added hazard of the charging cycle. Perhaps you could compare it to the hazards of gasoline vehicles while filling up at the gas station.

 

[Jstpssng]

I dont think we can ignore the fact that we are pumping a boatload of electricity into a very large battery while charging...and that is always going to have risk.

Parked gasoline vehicle fires seem to be mostly related to the electrical system...a short, etc.
There is no comparison to the amount of electricity we are pumping into an EV battery when it is charging.

However the EV still comes with all other electrical hazards as well. If they have brake fluid and it leaks then a short of the same type could happen. EVs just have the added hazard of the charging cycle. Perhaps you could compare it to the hazards of gasoline vehicles while filling up at the gas station.

The other consideration with the chart in the above video; the fleet of gasoline powered vehicles is much older, resulting in more things to go wrong.

 

[GeneV]

Wow, that is scary about ice vehicles spontaneously lighting up, dafuq! Honestly, I never knew that was a thing other than a total fluke. I got an attached garage, I park my Sienna in it, usually with a battery tender hooked to it.

My house was a rebuild by the previous owner. He actually had a fire in the garage (unk reason), and that spread out and done the whole house in the middle of the night. He barely got out in time.

 

[ponytug]

I try hard never to leave chargers attached to batteries in any enclosed space ever. There are too many ways for that to go wrong.

With ICE vehicles there have been more than a few years to work out the hazards, but fires still happen. In earlier times, there used to be restrictions on how many gallons of fuel could be stored in the garage with the vehicle for fire reasons. I can remember 5 gallon tins of fuel that were soldered closed. No leakage, but opening them to fuel up was a bit of a challenge. Ever been in a Model T? The amount of gas spilled while in use is amazing, and it is right in front of you.

If your vehicle has hundreds of mile of range, either EV or ICE, that is a lot of energy. Treat accordingly would be my advice.

Then again, I have never been wild about 300 gallons of diesel, aka fuel oil, in the basement, next to open flames (the furnace), but I recognize that is a minority view.

All the best,

Peter

 

[newbury]

A can on a roll-off would outlast 90% of the RV by huge margin, if you do your cutouts right. I have seen some RV ice fishing rigs that look like they would last. Drive in and they drop to the ground.

Don't you mean drop to the ice?

 

[Jstpssng]

I try hard never to leave chargers attached to batteries in any enclosed space ever. There are too many ways for that to go wrong.

With ICE vehicles there have been more than a few years to work out the hazards, but fires still happen. In earlier times, there used to be restrictions on how many gallons of fuel could be stored in the garage with the vehicle for fire reasons. I can remember 5 gallon tins of fuel that were soldered closed. No leakage, but opening them to fuel up was a bit of a challenge. Ever been in a Model T? The amount of gas spilled while in use is amazing, and it is right in front of you.

If your vehicle has hundreds of mile of range, either EV or ICE, that is a lot of energy. Treat accordingly would be my advice.

Then again, I have never been wild about 300 gallons of diesel, aka fuel oil, in the basement, next to open flames (the furnace), but I recognize that is a minority view.

All the best,

Peter

At least heating oil isn't quite as volatile. Something has to start it burning. Unlike gas which is fired by a spark plug; or an EV which has it's own energy starter, diesel is relatively docile. I won't even bring LP heat into the conversation.

 

[Eagle1]

Yup but work on the ground as well. Had one here one summer loaded with HDs for riding around here.

Don't you mean drop to the ice?

 

[ponytug]

At least heating oil isn't quite as volatile. Something has to start it burning. Unlike gas which is fired by a spark plug; or an EV which has it's own energy starter, diesel is relatively docile. I won't even bring LP heat into the conversation.

I totally agree that diesel is much less volatile, but I have seen too many fuel oil furnaces with oil soaked surroundings to get the warm and fuzzies about relying on just the low volatility...

Going the other way, I can remember camping up your way on a cold, snowy morning and the gasoline stove had a little trouble lighting. Ok, a lot of problems. As in the matches were quenched by the gasoline due to the cold. Funny in hindsight, but at the time a bit of an OMG moment. I had to build a mini wood fire with shavings to light the gasoline. Not life threatening, but definitely "WTH is going on?"...

Then there were some former neighbors. Mom called the gas company three times over the course of a week, complaining of gas smells, and the company didn't find anything in the house. On the fourth visit, the gasman checked out the neighboring homes. Two houses over had a wide open gas valve in the basement. Mom was smelling the vapors that were seeping out...it shutdown the gas to the whole block so that they could safely turn it off.

Our current place had a gas valve to an open pipe with no cap at the back of a storage area where it could easily have gotten knocked open. People can be funny some times about risk. I fixed that the moment that I found it. "Do not pass Go, do not collect $200..."

All the best,

Peter

 

[Jstpssng]

I totally agree that diesel is much less volatile, but I have seen too many fuel oil furnaces with oil soaked surroundings to get the warm and fuzzies about relying on just the low volatility...

Going the other way, I can remember camping up your way on a cold, snowy morning and the gasoline stove had a little trouble lighting. Ok, a lot of problems. As in the matches were quenched by the gasoline due to the cold. Funny in hindsight, but at the time a bit of an OMG moment. I had to build a mini wood fire with shavings to light the gasoline. Not life threatening, but definitely "WTH is going on?"...

Then there were some former neighbors. Mom called the gas company three times over the course of a week, complaining of gas smells, and the company didn't find anything in the house. On the fourth visit, the gasman checked out the neighboring homes. Two houses over had a wide open gas valve in the basement. Mom was smelling the vapors that were seeping out...it shutdown the gas to the whole block so that they could safely turn it off.

Our current place had a gas valve to an open pipe with no cap at the back of a storage area where it could easily have gotten knocked open. People can be funny some times about risk. I fixed that the moment that I found it. "Do not pass Go, do not collect $200..."

All the best,

Peter

Years ago I rented a 2nd floor apartment which had a gas stove, water heater and a brand new propane vented wall heater. The landlord was an acquaintance and he gave me a good rate because he knew I would take care of any minor problems. I had a 100 gallon and 250 gallon tank, connected together. I came home one day and the water heater was leaking propane. I went down to shut the valve off... and it didn't work. I quickly called the propane company but was told "We only go to your area every other Wednesday, and we were there yesterday." In hindsight I should have called the fire department but instead I called my landlord. He referred me to somebody else who had a technician there in 10 minutes... I swear that I didn't have time to put the phone down before he knocked on the door.

 

[ning]

So No, I don't view it as an "EV" problem exclusively......

The "catching fire" part certainly isn't an EV problem exclusively.

What is, however, is that when an Li-ion battery catches fire, you literally can't put the fire out. It's similar to a solid rocket booster, in which it's got the fuel plus oxidizer all in there together, and all you can do is try to keep the fire from spreading until it's burned entirely. Li-ion battery fires also escalate extremely quickly, unlike a fuel leak in the engine compartment which is initially a small fire before it spreads sufficiently to involve the fuel tank. The EV's Li-ion battery is basically all burning at once.

Contrast this with a gasoline fire, which is seriously dangerous but can be snuffed out fairly quickly by the FD.
FD with an EV fire? Literally many hours, and then they have to continue monitoring it until temperatures have dropped to the point where there's less concern of re-ignition.

So while it's not exclusive to EVs, the EVs present very specific problems.

The preceding discusses Li-ion EV batteries. Initially all recent EVs used Li-ion batteries, but primarily because of the thermal runaway problems, LiFePo4 batteries (still Lithium, just a different chemistry) have started to replace Li-ion, though I'm not sure how common they are yet. LiFePo4 batteries do not have thermal runaway and *if* they catch fire it's simple to put out (I've seen demonstrations; they don't burn easily). I also don't think you can dump power from them quite as quickly (probably not a "plaid" application) and they're not quite as power-dense as Li-ion. The backup batteries in my shop are LiFePo4. More pricey than Li-ion, but safer.

 

[3930dave]

No form of energy is w/o hazard...... good discussion and examples in this thread.

As I've said @ work (and old guy memory... maybe on here already....) "Ever see a diesel explosion ? .... It's not exactly easy to get it to explode INSIDE an engine.....". That super-stablity/low risk of diesel is conveniently being ignored today (I refer to broad-society, not taking a poke at anybody on here....).

I'm not unaware of diesel fuel downsides (see first sentence, this post.....). The issue I'm preparing for, is the Powers That Be, who are in a rush to virtue-signal about Electric Vehicles either reside at the extreme other end of the building from where I suspect the Inside-The-Building EV Charging will take place, or are totally off-site.

In other words.... "They" won't be the ones choking on toxic fumes if/when a massive Lithium pack suddenly goes up.... I and my co-workers will though.

I'm in my data-collection mode @ the moment..... I've often been surprised and impressed by who hangs-out on TBN, and value the experience, knowledge, and perspective they share...... hence, my post on this emerging and significant topic.

I've reached out to a retired professional fire-fighter I know locally, and hope to have some information flowing to me from that channel...... One of his initial comments re. EV Lithium fires...... "Standards are still being written". That said, the threat still stands.

If I can build a solid enough technical case, I will be pushing very hard for firefighter-level respirators to be supplied and maintained at work, for the peasants like me that work @ the dungeon-end of the building.....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

The other consideration with the chart in the above video; the fleet of gasoline powered vehicles is much older, resulting in more things to go wrong.

Lies, Darn Lies, Statistics...... is now a pretty old saying.....

From a top level, it's often easy to Spin Various Directions........ often you need to spend time digging down to dissect the data in a meaningful way.....

Rust destroys pretty much everything on the road here in not a whole lot more than 10 years. On this continent, you only have to go to Cali, or American SW, or even BeSea Canada to come across quite a few 25+ y/o ICE vehicles on the road.

We haven't got any "Aged" data for Lithium powered EV fleets yet....

Rgds, D.

 

[ning]

Lies, Darn Lies, Statistics...... is now a pretty old saying.....

From a top level, it's often easy to Spin Various Directions........ often you need to spend time digging down to dissect the data in a meaningful way.....

Rust destroys pretty much everything on the road here in not a whole lot more than 10 years. On this continent, you only have to go to Cali, or American SW, or even BeSea Canada to come across quite a few 25+ y/o ICE vehicles on the road.

We haven't got any "Aged" data for EV fleets yet....

Rgds, D.

86.7% of statistics are made up

 

[ruffdog]

EVs have been used for years inside of large manufacturing facilities. Battery powered forklifts, maintenance crash trucks, scooters, and flatbeds by the hundreds inside a facility is common. The batteries were lead/acid and could be changed out quickly in the battery room.

 

[Jstpssng]

This isn’t quite the same as what’s being discussed, yet is still timely ;

Vehicle-hauling tractor trailer catches fire on Route 9 in Aurora, totals half dozen new cars

A stretch of Route 9 near 353 Old Airline Road has been closed since around 8 a.m. to clear the wreckage.

www.bangordailynews.com

Thankfully nobody was injured but I pity the driver who now has to try to explain what happened to his boss.

 

[dodge man]

I didn’t read all the posts but I own an electric bike. On an e bike forum a saw a letter from a place, I think it was condos, that said no e bikes allowed. Not in your unit, storage, garage, no where no how never. There have been a few high profile fires from e bike batteries. Mine is UL rated but a lot of them aren’t.

Gasoline cars catch on fire also. Is the risk higher with an electric car? I don’t know.

 

[3930dave]

EVs have been used for years inside of large manufacturing facilities. Battery powered forklifts, maintenance crash trucks, scooters, and flatbeds by the hundreds inside a facility is common. The batteries were lead/acid and could be changed out quickly in the battery room.

True. Since lead-acid predates, well, pretty much anyone alive today.... hazards are well understood.

In a crowded Pb battery room (at least in a first world country), if you had high-speed charging going on w/o adequate ventilation (or alarms for failure of a high volume venting system), then your insurance company might understandably get ornery.

Early days yet, on the Big LI Chging game, indoors...

Rgds, D.

(P.S - I went back to my earlier post, and updated what my mind was thinking, but fingers didn't get to at the time.... "We haven't got any "Aged" data for Lithium powered EV fleets yet...." )

 

[3930dave]

I didn’t read all the posts but I own an electric bike. On an e bike forum a saw a letter from a place, I think it was condos, that said no e bikes allowed. Not in your unit, storage, garage, no where no how never. There have been a few high profile fires from e bike batteries. Mine is UL rated but a lot of them aren’t.

Gasoline cars catch on fire also. Is the risk higher with an electric car? I don’t know.

Fake batteries/certifications, knock-off power supplies..... I can understand the ban you posted.

Rgds, D.

 

[ponytug]

No form of energy is w/o hazard...... good discussion and examples in this thread.

As I've said @ work (and old guy memory... maybe on here already....) "Ever see a diesel explosion ? .... It's not exactly easy to get it to explode INSIDE an engine.....". That super-stablity/low risk of diesel is conveniently being ignored today (I refer to broad-society, not taking a poke at anybody on here....).

I'm not unaware of diesel fuel downsides (see first sentence, this post.....). The issue I'm preparing for, is the Powers That Be, who are in a rush to virtue-signal about Electric Vehicles either reside at the extreme other end of the building from where I suspect the Inside-The-Building EV Charging will take place, or are totally off-site.

In other words.... "They" won't be the ones choking on toxic fumes if/when a massive Lithium pack suddenly goes up.... I and my co-workers will though.

I'm in my data-collection mode @ the moment..... I've often been surprised and impressed by who hangs-out on TBN, and value the experience, knowledge, and perspective they share...... hence, my post on this emerging and significant topic.

I've reached out to a retired professional fire-fighter I know locally, and hope to have some information flowing to me from that channel...... One of his initial comments re. EV Lithium fires...... "Standards are still being written". That said, the threat still stands.

If I can build a solid enough technical case, I will be pushing very hard for firefighter-level respirators to be supplied and maintained at work, for the peasants like me that work @ the dungeon-end of the building.....

Rgds, D.

You might look at some other sites dealing with EVs; e.g.
mikeholt.com
teslamotorsclub.com

There are numerous discussions on both about EV regulations, fires, the evolving nature of the regulations. Some data scattered through it.

You might also look at UL 9540A Test Method, and the associated test results.

My bottom line would be ensuring a good fire alarm and exits for fires, regardless of cause, but I can relate to your concerns.

All the best,

Peter

 

[3930dave]

Thanks PT, I will go through that material. It will benefit the TBN EV owners who pass by here too .

In my upcoming work situation, I don't stand to benefit (gold-stars on forehead, bonuses etc...) from virtue-signalling with these new EVs, but as one of the peasants working in the trenches, if/when this bandwagon many people want to jump on turns into a burn-wagon......

Si Vis Pacem.....

Rgds, D.