Shipping Tractors

[IndyJay]

 

[Lineman North Florida]

LOL at y'all arguing about pipelines and oil supply. [ puts on flame suit ]

Consider: Oil and energy prices should be higher. Like, way, way higher. Cheap energy prices is perhaps the single worst part of the history of human existence on this planet.

Wah wah wah about your diesel fuel prices. So raise your price quotes if you need to. If your goods or services are essential, people will pay the surcharge. If they aren't, then good riddance to your superfluous consumption of earth's finite resources; find something more productive and necessary to do.

If gas/diesel prices doubled overnight, we would still drive to work, drive to get groceries, pay more for our food and goods, and run our tractors. Yes, it would hurt, and I understand how regressive this is for our impoverished and low income compatriots. But everyone commenting in this forum has such an insanely high standard of living, it's crazy. And clearly unsustainable for the planet. Reducing consumption is our only chance at saving this place.H

This is sickening, you been listening to Al Gore.

 

[deezler]

This is sickening, you been listening to Al Gore.

Lol, no, man. He's just a straw man of the past at this point anyway.

I knew a lot of you guys would hate my thoughts in that post, and that's ok. Whether you think humans are responsible for climate change or not, it seems pretty obvious that we shouldn't be pumping carbon fuels into the atmosphere (among so many other ground-level carcinogens) at this rate. 8-10 billion people on this planet.... not going to work out long term.

We don't have to feel guilty about where we are now, or what you consume in a typical day. Our culture and society fed us right into these lifestyles. But we have the power and capability to choose how much further we push ourselves off the cliff.

I mean, ****, even the current war in Ukraine is about fossil fuels, ultimately. If the majority of our electricity and transportation fuel simply came from the sun, it would put a huge dent in global conflict. We're all addicted to cheap oil and it's clearly hurting the planet, and ourselves.

 

[Reddogs]

LOL at y'all arguing about pipelines and oil supply. [ puts on flame suit ]

Consider: Oil and energy prices should be higher. Like, way, way higher. Cheap energy prices is perhaps the single worst part of the history of human existence on this planet.

Wah wah wah about your diesel fuel prices. So raise your price quotes if you need to. If your goods or services are essential, people will pay the surcharge. If they aren't, then good riddance to your superfluous consumption of earth's finite resources; find something more productive and necessary to do.

If gas/diesel prices doubled overnight, we would still drive to work, drive to get groceries, pay more for our food and goods, and run our tractors. Yes, it would hurt, and I understand how regressive this is for our impoverished and low income compatriots. But everyone commenting in this forum has such an insanely high standard of living, it's crazy. And clearly unsustainable for the planet. Reducing consumption is our only chance at saving this place.

Well looks like they will go down... US energy agency revises up oil price forecast for 2022

 

[deezler]

Well looks like they will go down... US energy agency revises up oil price forecast for 2022

I mean, sure, they might.

the EIA cautioned that the price forecast is "highly uncertain"

 

[LD48750]

Lol, no, man. He's just a straw man of the past at this point anyway.

I knew a lot of you guys would hate my thoughts in that post, and that's ok. Whether you think humans are responsible for climate change or not, it seems pretty obvious that we shouldn't be pumping carbon fuels into the atmosphere (among so many other ground-level carcinogens) at this rate. 8-10 billion people on this planet.... not going to work out long term.

We don't have to feel guilty about where we are now, or what you consume in a typical day. Our culture and society fed us right into these lifestyles. But we have the power and capability to choose how much further we push ourselves off the cliff.

I mean, ****, even the current war in Ukraine is about fossil fuels, ultimately. If the majority of our electricity and transportation fuel simply came from the sun, it would put a huge dent in global conflict. We're all addicted to cheap oil and it's clearly hurting the planet, and ourselves.

You are so right...
Just think a short time ago (in the history of the world) this land we are standing on now was covered in glaciers.
And just a few years ago we had scientific proof we were headed into another ice age.
And it's ALL caused by humans but don't worry, humans can control climate.
We have proven that, Trump caused tornados & hurricanes.

 

[jyoutz]

You are so right...
Just think a short time ago (in the history of the world) this land we are standing on now was covered in glaciers.
And just a few years ago we had scientific proof we were headed into another ice age.
And it's ALL caused by humans but don't worry, humans can control climate.
We have proven that, Trump caused tornados & hurricanes.

Please don’t ever try to teach science.

 

[mred2]

All energy comes from the sun. We have been told that oil was plants and animals that died millions of years ago. Oil is something that stores the energy. We burn it and the energy is released. One of the issues is how to store large amounts of energy for later use. Current batteries are just not good enough. Also is how to pack more energy into a smaller package. If you could only make a battery to drive a car 1,000 miles, only weight 100 pounds, be able to charged/replaced in 15 minutes, only cost $250 and produce no pollution when manufactured or disposed of.
I wish there were enough hydro plants to power everything. But then even those slow down or stop the rivers. Nuclear is an option, if done safely. But a lot of people think, it will never be safe enough.
I think I could have lived in the foot hills years ago. Burned wood, plowed with horses. No cars, but then what would I do without my tractor?

 

[Lineman North Florida]

This probably won't be popular but IMO the good lord created this earth and we can't destroy anything he created, he might but we can't.

 

[CobyRupert]

All energy comes from the sun. We have been told that oil was plants and animals that died millions of years ago. Oil is something that stores the energy. We burn it and the energy is released. One of the issues is how to store large amounts of energy for later use. Current batteries are just not good enough. Also is how to pack more energy into a smaller package. If you could only make a battery to drive a car 1,000 miles, only weight 100 pounds, be able to charged/replaced in 15 minutes, only cost $250 and produce no pollution when manufactured or disposed of.
I wish there were enough hydro plants to power everything. But then even those slow down or stop the rivers. Nuclear is an option, if done safely. But a lot of people think, it will never be safe enough.
I think I could have lived in the foot hills years ago. Burned wood, plowed with horses. No cars, but then what would I do without my tractor?

I don’t think geothermal energy doesn’t come from the sun. Not all nuclear energy is derived from the sun, but the sun’s energy is nuclear. I suppose you could say that gravity is ultimately responsible for geothermal, the sun’s nuclear fusion, and radioactive elements. Like anyone really knows what gravity is.

 

[ddgood]

Back on topic with another data point, I’m having a John Deere 350C dozer hauled about 85 miles in East Texas on Friday. Was quoted $3/mile with a $300 minimum charge. Guy is a DOT hotshot driver and runs a Ram 4500 and 30’ fifth wheel with a hydraulic dovetail.

 

[dirttoys]

This is

LOL at y'all arguing about pipelines and oil supply. [ puts on flame suit ]

Consider: Oil and energy prices should be higher. Like, way, way higher. Cheap energy prices is perhaps the single worst part of the history of human existence on this planet.

Wah wah wah about your diesel fuel prices. So raise your price quotes if you need to. If your goods or services are essential, people will pay the surcharge. If they aren't, then good riddance to your superfluous consumption of earth's finite resources; find something more productive and necessary to do.

If gas/diesel prices doubled overnight, we would still drive to work, drive to get groceries, pay more for our food and goods, and run our tractors. Yes, it would hurt, and I understand how regressive this is for our impoverished and low income compatriots. But everyone commenting in this forum has such an insanely high standard of living, it's crazy. And clearly unsustainable for the planet. Reducing consumption is our only chance at saving this place.

This is precisely the danger of allowing lies to be told over and over again until people believe them, even evangelize them.

You mention history, have you read anything, or studied it at all? Can we agree that historically this planet has changed dramatically? Do we believe the science that has documented ~ 5 ice ages on this planet? Do you believe before the internal combustion engine we had some years with more rain than others? Do you believe before internal combustion engines we had years with longer winters/hotter summers than others?

Our climate, over eons changes (that's what climates do) from one unsurvivable extreme to the other, with a period of hospitable time in between.

Nearly all good Christians have believed Christ would return in their life time, so far as cool as they were, they were all wrong. It would be fun to line up all the school books and see what doom and gloom they predicted. In my time in school, we could see an ice age in our kids lifetimes and we would exhaust fossil fuels by the late 1990's. Oddly we keep finding more oil, so we have to declare oil a sin, to move the money from exxon to tesla.

People tend to see and believe doom and gloom. Smart people use that tendency to gain attention/power/money.

This planet, in it's natural course will exterminate the human race. The folks that believe we, in the natural course of our lives, move the needle on when that happens in a meaningful way, are far less important and less influential than they think.

You are correct, that people will still drive to work if gas goes up.
You are myopic in the following: long term higher energy costs will reduce disposable income. disposable income is the essence of the middle class. the middle class is what makes a representative republic possible.

Please consider the motives of those that tell you, in order for the world to exist you have to make sacrifices. I can be happy even if you are. I can get rich even if you are. You don't need to have a ****ty day for me to have a good one. And you don't have to give up your car, and live in a cave for the world to keep turning.

Best,

ed

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Fly a part to Birmingham AL where a taxi was waiting to run the last hundred miles to the boonies.

You must be in my neck of the woods then.

 

[deezler]

This probably won't be popular but IMO the good lord created this earth and we can't destroy anything he created, he might but we can't.

Sure, the earth will survive, in some form. But humans might not. An incredible mass species extinction event is already well underway, actually. Due to deforestation and yes, a changing climate.

 

[deezler]

This is precisely the danger of allowing lies to be told over and over again until people believe them, even evangelize them.
....
Please consider the motives of those that tell you, in order for the world to exist you have to make sacrifices. I can be happy even if you are. I can get rich even if you are. You don't need to have a ****ty day for me to have a good one. And you don't have to give up your car, and live in a cave for the world to keep turning.

Best,

ed

Thanks for your response, Ed. Hope I didn't push your buttons too hard to make you sit and type all that out.

What's funny is that I agree with you, but from the exact opposite perspective. I certainly agree that human existence is not a zero sum game.

But if you believe our climate scientists and their data when it correctly shows that yes, this planet has had far hotter and cooler times, and wildly varying precipitation and sea levels over its long history - then it shouldn't be that hard for you to also understand that it has never, NEVER changed as rapidly as it is doing right now. We have the data. Climate patterns are going off the rails, and it's simply logical to ask why. It's completely plausible that our human's incredible transformation of land use and atmospheric composition is affecting the climate.

Even so, my post acknowledged right up front that even if you don't agree with this fairly clear set of well correlating data, the other benefits of reducing fossil fuel use are obvious. Pollution sucks. Spewing carcinogens into the local air sucks. Fighting wars, ruining cities, killing thousands of people for control of energy sources, sucks. You didn't touch on this aspect. And so, even if you don't care about any of that! It's time to start thinking about how this clearly changing climate is going to affect humanity in the near future. A sea level rise of just a couple feet, coupled with what appears to be a trend of increasing storm intensity, will cause many millions of people to flee their cities and lands as climate refugees in the coming decades. Where will they go? What will they eat?

Finally when it comes to allowing lies to be told, maybe you should think critically about who is actually pulling the strings and providing you information on a daily basis. Big oil and other fossil fuel industries lobby our politicians more than any other industry - they control our politicians, and media. They sow disinformation. For example, Exxon knew their industry would cause climate change back in the 1970s, and they actively suppressed this information and then paid for a campaign of pseudo-science to create the very skepticism you now seem to harbor.

 

[deezler]

Well anyway my apologies for taking this thread sideways. My career is mechanical engineering, dyno testing internal combustion engines. I love all 12 of my internal combustion engines. The power density of liquid fuel is insane, and batteries are not about to fully displace it for transportation anytime soon, if ever. I try to be a pragmatist.

Sort of back on topic, Here's a spooky quote from an article in today's NY times :

Soaring Cost of Diesel Ripples Through the Global Economy (Published 2022)

Russia’s war in Ukraine has caused a steep rise in a fuel essential to truckers, farmers and industry. Europe is hardest hit.

www.nytimes.com

"U.S. refineries have exported more diesel to Europe from New York and the Gulf Coast in recent months. That’s unusual because those refineries typically sell most of their products domestically during the winter, when demand for diesel tends to be higher than in the summer.

“The Europeans produce as much as they can, but they are still short,” said Debnil Chowdhury, a vice president and head of Americas Refining at IHS Markit, a research firm. “And so the U.S. needs to fill that gap.’’

U.S. diesel exports to Europe have, in turn, helped drive up prices domestically by reducing supplies. That could become a bigger problem. Diesel stockpiles in the United States have been dropping over the last year and a half, and are at their lowest levels in eight years, according to the Energy Department.

“There is some terror” in the diesel market right now, said Linda Salinas, vice president for operations at Texmark Chemicals, a Texas company that converts imported undistilled diesel — made from used cooking oil and waste — into a renewable jet fuel. “How often do we have a major power like Russia invade another country and have a global impact like this? All the fuel streams are connected.”

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Thanks for your response, Ed. Hope I didn't push your buttons too hard to make you sit and type all that out.

What's funny is that I agree with you, but from the exact opposite perspective. I certainly agree that human existence is not a zero sum game.

But if you believe our climate scientists and their data when it correctly shows that yes, this planet has had far hotter and cooler times, and wildly varying precipitation and sea levels over its long history - then it shouldn't be that hard for you to also understand that it has never, NEVER changed as rapidly as it is doing right now. We have the data. Climate patterns are going off the rails, and it's simply logical to ask why. It's completely plausible that our human's incredible transformation of land use and atmospheric composition is affecting the climate.

Even so, my post acknowledged right up front that even if you don't agree with this fairly clear set of well correlating data, the other benefits of reducing fossil fuel use are obvious. Pollution sucks. Spewing carcinogens into the local air sucks. Fighting wars, ruining cities, killing thousands of people for control of energy sources, sucks. You didn't touch on this aspect. And so, even if you don't care about any of that! It's time to start thinking about how this clearly changing climate is going to affect humanity in the near future. A sea level rise of just a couple feet, coupled with what appears to be a trend of increasing storm intensity, will cause many millions of people to flee their cities and lands as climate refugees in the coming decades. Where will they go? What will they eat?

Finally when it comes to allowing lies to be told, maybe you should think critically about who is actually pulling the strings and providing you information on a daily basis. Big oil and other fossil fuel industries lobby our politicians more than any other industry - they control our politicians, and media. They sow disinformation. For example, Exxon knew their industry would cause climate change back in the 1970s, and they actively suppressed this information and then paid for a campaign of pseudo-science to create the very skepticism you now seem to harbor.

Here's what I have to say to this climate change baloney:

 

[dirttoys]

Thanks for your response, Ed. Hope I didn't push your buttons too hard to make you sit and type all that out.

What's funny is that I agree with you, but from the exact opposite perspective. I certainly agree that human existence is not a zero sum game.

But if you believe our climate scientists and their data when it correctly shows that yes, this planet has had far hotter and cooler times, and wildly varying precipitation and sea levels over its long history - then it shouldn't be that hard for you to also understand that it has never, NEVER changed as rapidly as it is doing right now. We have the data. Climate patterns are going off the rails, and it's simply logical to ask why. It's completely plausible that our human's incredible transformation of land use and atmospheric composition is affecting the climate.

Even so, my post acknowledged right up front that even if you don't agree with this fairly clear set of well correlating data, the other benefits of reducing fossil fuel use are obvious. Pollution sucks. Spewing carcinogens into the local air sucks. Fighting wars, ruining cities, killing thousands of people for control of energy sources, sucks. You didn't touch on this aspect. And so, even if you don't care about any of that! It's time to start thinking about how this clearly changing climate is going to affect humanity in the near future. A sea level rise of just a couple feet, coupled with what appears to be a trend of increasing storm intensity, will cause many millions of people to flee their cities and lands as climate refugees in the coming decades. Where will they go? What will they eat?

Finally when it comes to allowing lies to be told, maybe you should think critically about who is actually pulling the strings and providing you information on a daily basis. Big oil and other fossil fuel industries lobby our politicians more than any other industry - they control our politicians, and media. They sow disinformation. For example, Exxon knew their industry would cause climate change back in the 1970s, and they actively suppressed this information and then paid for a campaign of pseudo-science to create the very skepticism you now seem to harbor.

Great reply, thanks for the time it took. Let me answer a few points.

No buttons, I frustrate myself sometimes, it takes a lot of words, and I still fail to make my point way too often.

My beliefs on climate science in as few a words as possible.
We have became pretty good observers (although we find errors in that as well).
Climate models are more complex than most understand, we are still discovering meaningful elements of the planet like global ocean currents and other interesting things to this day. Models are sadly developed by using what we know, making a short term observation, then changing/adding variables to get the output in range of the results. Correlation does not equal cause and effect.

Now you are correct, without regard to the cause, we will have to deal with the impact of rising sea levels (which we have known about for recorded history). If it takes a week to rise to an impactful level we need to deal with it quicker than if it takes a year, but none the less the folks that built there should have had a clear indication it would need to be dealt with. Much like the poor folks in new orleans, maybe a simple sign that says "don't build a house below sea level" would help?

Neither the folks on the coast, or the people in new orleans will be helped by us cutting down on what you call conspicuous consumption. They have an issue of fighting nature, haul in dirt, grow gills, or move. I am not cold hearted, don't mean to trivialize the real suffering, but, at a logical level, these problems are not if, but when.

Life spans over time have largely increase to where I consider they hit the design limit. How long would you like to live? Would you live in a hut and eat only fresh caught fish and seaweed to live an additional year? I agree life is not a zero sum game, but, at an individual level it is full of trade offs. I am past the age where I could have out run the lion in primitive times, I get around ok and can participate in my hobbies, I would not change my lifestyle for another year or three.

Finally, I like my liars as transparent as possible. I would expect a BP exec to extol the virtues of fossil fuel, and how much better our lives are because of them.
What I can't easily tolerate is a politician with a tear in his eye saying we need to change our ways for the good of the children, when his real goals are: to get votes. Now to get votes he wants you to believe he cares, that doesn't sound too bad really, but, he also would like to put you in a position of dependence so you become a more reliable vote, and he doesn't have to work as hard for you. That is the greatest danger that this society faces. And while I understand the scientists that probably want to make the world a better place, I also know they are dependent on grant for relevance.

Humans fight, certainly not always for oil. As long as a man can pick up a stick, there will be war. Oil, lithium, freedom call the motives what ever you want.

Best,

ed

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Now to get votes he wants you to believe he cares, that doesn't sound too bad really, but, he also would like to put you in a position of dependence so you become a more reliable vote, and he doesn't have to work as hard for you. That is the greatest danger that this society faces.

You have said it correctly right here ^^^ That is the greatest threat to society.

 

[deezler]

Humans fight, certainly not always for oil. As long as a man can pick up a stick, there will be war. Oil, lithium, freedom call the motives what ever you want.

Yeah, a great point. The lithium wars will probably be our next century of conflict.