Question about hydraulics performance on different excavators.

[Jchonline]

My M59 with multiple pumps had the worst hydraulics I’ve ever had on a machine.

Yes I will say the M62 backhoe was very different than the KX040. Not nearly as smooth or responsive…but I dont expect it to be. It did have 2 different pumps.

I also looked at some others On the comparison chart below. Crazy enough the KX018-4 has 4 pumps! That is a really small machine!

https://www.kubotausa.com/docs/default-source/product-comparison-pdfs/k-competitive.pdf?sfvrsn=20c40b7c_4

 

[Hersheyfarm]

My M59 with multiple pumps had the worst hydraulics I’ve ever had on a machine.

Yes, my m59 lost both pumps at 75hr. Replaced under warranty. Good power in backhoe but slooow. loader was good but too weak for the big bucket. My m62 was better, but it was still slow digging compared to the 040.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Yes I will say the M62 backhoe was very different than the KX040. Not nearly as smooth or responsive…but I dont expect it to be. It did have 2 different pumps.

I also looked at some others On the comparison chart below. Crazy enough the KX018-4 has 4 pumps! That is a really small machine!

https://www.kubotausa.com/docs/default-source/product-comparison-pdfs/k-competitive.pdf?sfvrsn=20c40b7c_4

I was just about to mention that..lol
seems there are reasons for multiple pumps on some, probably depends on hp and volume of cylinders..
I will say I absolutely no complaints with the speed and smoothness of the kx040, it has pretty good power too. The hydraulic system is not comparable to the m59/m62. No contest. Maybe its like scotty said open vs closed, cause something is different. M62 has more power and 31gpm between 2 pumps vs the the kx040 single pump and 24gpm, the kx is in way higher league as far as the quality of hydraulics.

 

[rScotty]

Regarding 3 pumps.... I don't know. I don't see three pumps listed on other mini-excavators....but our M59 tractor has three pumps and that's not common either. Maybe it's worth a trip to a parts book to make sure.

On the current Kubota Brochure for the U48 online (below) it says it has a 1 pump load sensing system with a pressure accumulator. That sure sounds like a closed hydraulic system with a variable displacement pump. Maybe that is one pump with 3 diffenent settings? Honest mistake or advertising?

Advertising departments spend a lot of time figuring out special ways to stretch things that allows them to to publish exaggerated numbers. Or even confusing ones. That's fair, their goal isn't to make honest comparisons, it's to make their own product look good. The truth doesn't really enter into it. I don't think any of this comes as a surprise to the old hands here on TBN. For us, it is always fun to compare things and the advertising department people know that as well. So we compare for fun, but I think nobody really believes those numbers are significantly different. Or real.

Lets see... how about system pressure? Well, hardly anyone makes their own hydraulic fittings. Even the really big companies leave that to specialists and there is a sweet supply spot at 3000 psi give or take 10% for error. So regardless of what they say, unless the price is really, really higher than the competition then that pressure is what everyone is using.
For advertising, the 3000 psi is static pressure of course, so the moment the fluid begins to move the pressure drops. Now using lhigher dollar hoses and and expensive fittings is where that dynamic pressure drop can be reduced a little. Or vice versa. Nobody measures or advertises that pressure drop, but you can bet they know about it.

The same type of reasoning applies for pins and arms made of steel and riding on bronze bushings. They are all very much the same since designers all now use the same hydraulic fittings, the same finite element design programs for all the geometry, and the same steel alloys.... and even the same Art Int. programs to optimise the variables.
There are few if any secrets there. It's a mature industry.

About the only thing that is left is aesthetics, design, & assembly for reliability. "Good" does cost more to build.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Scotty, kubota is proving to be bad with published information. They get stuff wrong all the time. here’s their competitive comparison pdf you can click on, on the same page where you got that from.

It clearly says 3 pumps. Plus they got the breakout force wrong. Of all places to get something wrong…

 

[rScotty]

I was just about to mention that..lol
seems there are reasons for multiple pumps on some, probably depends on hp and volume of cylinders..
I will say I absolutely no complaints with the speed and smoothness of the kx040, it has pretty good power too. The hydraulic system is not comparable to the m59/m62. No contest. Maybe its like scotty said open vs closed, cause something is different. M62 has more power and 31gpm between 2 pumps vs the the kx040 single pump and 24gpm, the kx is in way higher league as far as the quality of hydraulics.

Ok. There's an example we can use to check the numbers from the advertising dept....and in this case they are going to look very good for Kubota.
HP = (flow (gal/min) * pressure (psi) all divided by 1716 to make the units come out right.

Turn it around with some basic algebra and we find that if we are looking at 24 gal/minute constant flow, the max pressure we can make with a 40 HP Yanmar motor runnng flat out is just under 3000 psi. That's close enough to call it a bullseye in my book.
Anyone saying they are getting higher flow rates with that same engine is exaggerating. Or whatever you want to call it.

BTW, our M59 has some of the sweetest, fast, accurate. and powerful hydraulics one could ever want. They just don't come better and most are not nearly so good. It will lift huge rocks and move a quarter inch controllably when stacking rock walls.
Was that just Luck? It was one of the first M59s built.
rScotty

 

[4570Man]

BTW, our M59 has some of the sweetest, fast, accurate. and powerful hydraulics one could ever want. They just don't come better and most are not nearly so good. It will lift huge rocks and move a quarter inch controllably when stacking rock walls.
Was that just Luck? It was one of the first M59s built.
rScotty

I think if you ran an excavator with joystick controls for an hour you’d quickly become disappointed with the M59 hydraulic. It wasn’t so much the precision of the backhoe that was in question as much as operator comfort and the speed of the hydraulics. I could take at least 2 scoops probably 3 on my excavator to every one the M59 will do. And the M59 front loader was less disappointing than the backhoe but the cable drive loader control wasn’t as good as it could have been. I know a backhoe will never equal a skid loader and mini x no matter how good it is but Kubota left room for improvement on that so called industrial machine. That’s an excellent tool when compared to a tractor backhoe, and I would still recommend that to any homeowner but for construction use it’s lacking.

 

[4570Man]

Yes, my m59 lost both pumps at 75hr. Replaced under warranty. Good power in backhoe but slooow. loader was good but too weak for the big bucket. My m62 was better, but it was still slow digging compared to the 040.

I never had any major failures with the M59 but the power wasn’t equal to my KX 40, the durability wasn’t as good as the 40 and the boom speed is way behind the 40. I’ve been very happy with the 40 excavator. I need a bigger one to supplement it but that’s no fault of it’s and it does great at what a mini x was supposed to do.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

I went from running Deere 310’s in the 90’s, to owning a 580L in 2000, then m59, then m62, and now the 040. No backhoe compares to the 040 speed and smoothness. Of coarse the power is no where near the 310/580..

 

[LD1]

Ok. There's an example we can use to check the numbers from the advertising dept....and in this case they are going to look very good for Kubota.
HP = (flow (gal/min) * pressure (psi) all divided by 1716 to make the units come out right.

Turn it around with some basic algebra and we find that if we are looking at 24 gal/minute constant flow, the max pressure we can make with a 40 HP Yanmar motor runnng flat out is just under 3000 psi. That's close enough to call it a bullseye in my book.
Anyone saying they are getting higher flow rates with that same engine is exaggerating. Or whatever you want to call it.

BTW, our M59 has some of the sweetest, fast, accurate. and powerful hydraulics one could ever want. They just don't come better and most are not nearly so good. It will lift huge rocks and move a quarter inch controllably when stacking rock walls.
Was that just Luck? It was one of the first M59s built.
rScotty

They are probably adding the sum of pump flows that will never operate at the same time to full capacity

IE: let's say the same engine is powering both a 15gmp pump for the drive motors, and a 20gpm pump for the boom, and a 10gpm pump for an auxiliary.

So while the machine does have 45gpm capacity, it can never use that much

Drive the machine while using the boom/bucket one or both will reduce in speed

 

[rScotty]

I think if you ran an excavator with joystick controls for an hour you’d quickly become disappointed with the M59 hydraulic. It wasn’t so much the precision of the backhoe that was in question as much as operator comfort and the speed of the hydraulics. I could take at least 2 scoops probably 3 on my excavator to every one the M59 will do. And the M59 front loader was less disappointing than the backhoe but the cable drive loader control wasn’t as good as it could have been. I know a backhoe will never equal a skid loader and mini x no matter how good it is but Kubota left room for improvement on that so called industrial machine. That’s an excellent tool when compared to a tractor backhoe, and I would still recommend that to any homeowner but for construction use it’s lacking.

You may be right. In fact I'm sure you are for most. It's that lots of scoops/min. and fast operation don't count in my work. If precise means it takes longer to do it that's just fine. Fast might count for more if I used the backhoe for digging, but I rarely use it for digging anyway.
It's local landscaping. And around here, landscaping means placing rocks.

What I like with the M59 is that it doesn't have any slop in the pivots or flex in the system. It's stable & doesn't rock back and forth like an ex does, and has controls sensitive to small movements. I can pick up a multi-hundred pound rock, place it right where I want it, confidently position one tooth against the edge, and use all that power to smoothly and slowly slide it a few inches to the side until it drops into place.

The industrial machines I've used are more set up for large faster movements - where they shine as you say. But they don't seem to do as well slowly easing the bucket a one inch under full power at full extension.

What I do like about min ex is the full rotation and the nice cab. When things settle down and it isn't a seller's market I'll be looking into them more seriously.
Probably look first to see what Cat has to offer. What do you think of their machines?
rScotty

 

[4570Man]

You may be right. In fact I'm sure you are for most. It's that lots of scoops/min. and fast operation don't count in my work. If precise means it takes longer to do it that's just fine. Fast might count for more if I used the backhoe for digging, but I rarely use it for digging anyway.
It's local landscaping. And around here, landscaping means placing rocks.

What I like with the M59 is that it doesn't have any slop in the pivots or flex in the system. It's stable & doesn't rock back and forth like an ex does, and has controls sensitive to small movements. I can pick up a multi-hundred pound rock, place it right where I want it, confidently position one tooth against the edge, and use all that power to smoothly and slowly slide it a few inches to the side until it drops into place.

The industrial machines I've used are more set up for large faster movements - where they shine as you say. But they don't seem to do as well slowly easing the bucket a one inch under full power at full extension.

What I do like about min ex is the full rotation and the nice cab. When things settle down and it isn't a seller's market I'll be looking into them more seriously.
Probably look first to see what Cat has to offer. What do you think of their machines?
rScotty

My mini x is very precise if you want it to be. It’s every bit as precise if not a little better than the M59. Using the blade for a stabilizer mostly eliminates the rocking problem. I’ve never ran a Cat mini. The price was enough to decide for me. I’ve been very happy with my Kubota mini and I wouldn’t hesitate at all to buy a Deere mini either.

 

[rScotty]

They are probably adding the sum of pump flows that will never operate at the same time to full capacity

IE: let's say the same engine is powering both a 15gmp pump for the drive motors, and a 20gpm pump for the boom, and a 10gpm pump for an auxiliary.

So while the machine does have 45gpm capacity, it can never use that much

Drive the machine while using the boom/bucket one or both will reduce in speed

I agree, and wonder if that's an example of how advertising can mislead us with specifications? Or is it just obvious to everyone but me?

Although if it is a closed hydraulic system I suppose it could have enough accumulators to regeneratively store pressure during the moments when the operator isn't using full flow. Then it really could store enough extra to have 45gpm flow out of a 40 HP engine - at least for as long as the accumulator has pressure.
rScotty

 

[4570Man]

I went from running Deere 310’s in the 90’s, to owning a 580L in 2000, then m59, then m62, and now the 040. No backhoe compares to the 040 speed and smoothness. Of coarse the power is no where near the 310/580..

I started out with a tractor backhoe, it worked pretty good at the time but it became apparent I needed something stronger. I sold it and bought a Deere 310. The Deere 310 gained the strength I wanted but the versatility sucked. I didn’t have the ability to use pallet forks or a grapple both of which I needed, and the lack of a quick change rear bucket or hydraulic thumb wasn’t great either. So I sold that and got the M59. The M59 did pretty good at solving the versatility problem but the backhoe didn’t perform as well as I’d like. It was enough to work but I wasn’t as happy as I could be. Then I bought the mini x while I still had the M59. It became immediately apparent that I would never use the M59 hoe again so I’d be better off to just sell it and buy a CTL so that’s what I did. Then I bought another Deere 410 while I still have the mini and skid steer. It’s not seen as much use as I thought it would. I’ll probably sell it and reinvest the funds into either a dozer or larger trackhoe.

 

[4570Man]

I agree, and wonder if that's an example of how advertising can mislead us with specifications? Or is it just obvious to everyone but me?

Although if it is a closed hydraulic system I suppose it could have enough accumulators to regeneratively store pressure during the moments when the operator isn't using full flow. Then it really could store enough extra to have 45gpm flow out of a 40 HP engine - at least for as long as the accumulator has pressure.
rScotty

The accumulator on the 40 is only 8 oz or so in volume. I was under the impression it was more like a shock absorber vs a storage device.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

You may be right. In fact I'm sure you are for most. It's that lots of scoops/min. and fast operation don't count in my work. If precise means it takes longer to do it that's just fine. Fast might count for more if I used the backhoe for digging, but I rarely use it for digging anyway.
It's local landscaping. And around here, landscaping means placing rocks.

What I like with the M59 is that it doesn't have any slop in the pivots or flex in the system. It's stable & doesn't rock back and forth like an ex does, and has controls sensitive to small movements. I can pick up a multi-hundred pound rock, place it right where I want it, confidently position one tooth against the edge, and use all that power to smoothly and slowly slide it a few inches to the side until it drops into place.

The industrial machines I've used are more set up for large faster movements - where they shine as you say. But they don't seem to do as well slowly easing the bucket a one inch under full power at full extension.

What I do like about min ex is the full rotation and the nice cab. When things settle down and it isn't a seller's market I'll be looking into them more seriously.
Probably look first to see what Cat has to offer. What do you think of their machines?
rScotty

One thing that pushed me at the the time to go mini ex was kubotas lack of cab for the m62. I was hesitant at first to get away from the backhoe platform, mainly because of handling of gravel, but its worked out by fabing a 5’ gravel bucket. If kubota was to put a nice designed cab on the m62 I would probably het rid of my svl75 to get one, but I doubt at this point i would give the mini ex up. Downside to mini ex is travel speed and ability to move large amounts of gravel fast. Upside to mini is digging speed and spoil placement..and cab.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

You may be right. In fact I'm sure you are for most. It's that lots of scoops/min. and fast operation don't count in my work. If precise means it takes longer to do it that's just fine. Fast might count for more if I used the backhoe for digging, but I rarely use it for digging anyway.
It's local landscaping. And around here, landscaping means placing rocks.

What I like with the M59 is that it doesn't have any slop in the pivots or flex in the system. It's stable & doesn't rock back and forth like an ex does, and has controls sensitive to small movements. I can pick up a multi-hundred pound rock, place it right where I want it, confidently position one tooth against the edge, and use all that power to smoothly and slowly slide it a few inches to the side until it drops into place.

The industrial machines I've used are more set up for large faster movements - where they shine as you say. But they don't seem to do as well slowly easing the bucket a one inch under full power at full extension.

What I do like about min ex is the full rotation and the nice cab. When things settle down and it isn't a seller's market I'll be looking into them more seriously.
Probably look first to see what Cat has to offer. What do you think of their machines?
rScotty

I glanced at a cat 505. Its like the Takeuchi in that it has longer reach and more dig depth in an equal size weight as kubota. Kubota seems to be conservative with performance. Maybe they design them to not get wore out with the extra leverage vs amount of steel to stay in a weight range.
This is superficial, but the first thing I noticed about the cat was cheap hard plastic joysticks. Like something that comes with a cheap gambling console. Other than that it was nice. I didnt bother pricing it.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

I started out with a tractor backhoe, it worked pretty good at the time but it became apparent I needed something stronger. I sold it and bought a Deere 310. The Deere 310 gained the strength I wanted but the versatility sucked. I didn’t have the ability to use pallet forks or a grapple both of which I needed, and the lack of a quick change rear bucket or hydraulic thumb wasn’t great either. So I sold that and got the M59. The M59 did pretty good at solving the versatility problem but the backhoe didn’t perform as well as I’d like. It was enough to work but I wasn’t as happy as I could be. Then I bought the mini x while I still had the M59. It became immediately apparent that I would never use the M59 hoe again so I’d be better off to just sell it and buy a CTL so that’s what I did. Then I bought another Deere 410 while I still have the mini and skid steer. It’s not seen as much use as I thought it would. I’ll probably sell it and reinvest the funds into either a dozer or larger trackhoe.

I bought the svl75 to replace the loss of the m62’s front loader here on the farm. Its a way more capable thing as far as grading but every time I go to do something simple like move something with forks or take it to my wife’s flower garden for her to fill bucket up or dump dirt it rips up the yard and gravel. But its supposed to, its a tracked machine.
Great on job sites, bad for yard maintenance.

 

[4570Man]

I bought the svl75 to replace the loss of the m62’s front loader here on the farm. Its a way more capable thing as far as grading but every time I go to do something simple like move something with forks or take it to my wife’s flower garden for her to fill bucket up or dump dirt it rips up the yard and gravel. But its supposed to, its a tracked machine.
Great on job sites, bad for yard maintenance.

I do occasionally miss my M59s low impact on the ground. That’s pretty much the only thing I miss about it. I’ve solved a lot of that problem with my mini x. It’s a lot better on grass than the skid steer is since it can pretty much drive straight in and straight out where the skid steer requires a lot more moving to do anything.

 

[Jchonline]

I bought the svl75 to replace the loss of the m62’s front loader here on the farm. Its a way more capable thing as far as grading but every time I go to do something simple like move something with forks or take it to my wife’s flower garden for her to fill bucket up or dump dirt it rips up the yard and gravel. But its supposed to, its a tracked machine.
Great on job sites, bad for yard maintenance.

Uh oh. Sounds like you need a BX2580 for yard maintenance now!