Cattle Crossings, Material ?

[Spike56]

I have a couple of slopes that water, will at times, run across. Unfortunately, the cattle need to get thru these same areas. Been asking around to see what types of material one might use on the ground (if anything) so they will not carve a cattle trail thru this area. Concrete is out of the question. What I really would like to know is there a size / grade of rock/stone one can lay on the area that they would walk across and allow grass to grow thru ?
I have access to some 3-5" rip rock (limestone, jagged edge) for example, but I know that is too sharp of stone. Actually, I would not even want to drive across that stuff - and I need to cross there also. So, has anyone build such a crossing ? What type of aggregate did you use ?
Just trying to keep the erosion down, but have something cattle & I can drive on.

 

[ponytug]

Are you talking about making a "ford" across a swale? If so, I think that you could certainly use the rip rock. If you can, dig down five to ten inches and then put the rip rock in, and compact the rock into the soil with a roller or bucket until you get a solid and flat surface. If the subsoil is really soft, I would dig down and then put a layer of geotextile down, and then put your rip rock.

If you are talking about a stream that has appreciable flood flow, that rip rock is unlikely to stay put, and you would have to go to a larger size rock, but in many areas that much water flow gets you into riparian and navigable waterway regulations.

All the best,

Peter

 

[oosik]

A picture or two would sure help .............

 

[newbury]

And we all love pictures!

 

[Hay Dude]

How swift of a current will run through it when it rains? Even a moderate current will roll the rocks downstream. When it’s dry, dig a shallow swale across the trench where the cattle cross at 90* to the water flow, maybe a foot deep and the width of your loader bucket. Fill the swale with rocks. That way the water will have less capability of washing your rocks “downstream”
If you have access to less sharp 5-6” rocks and you can lay them in the cross ditch and drive over them to compact, that would help their hooves.

 

[3Ts]

I know you said no concrete and that stone was ok, what about concrete blocks that are intended to be driven on and allows grass to grow thru them? What size of area are you looking at? BTW, These are not the normal cinder blocks you get at the big box store. You may have to order them - I've no idea as to the cost. Nor have I used them, but have seen them used in the neighborhood.

 

[Spike56]

I know you said no concrete and that stone was ok, what about concrete blocks that are intended to be driven on and allows grass to grow thru them? What size of area are you looking at? BTW, These are not the normal cinder blocks you get at the big box store. You may have to order them - I've no idea as to the cost. Nor have I used them, but have seen them used in the neighborhood.

View attachment 731972

3Ts, I thought about something just like that. Would be quite a job to install, but might work. The "only" issue "could" be driving my tractor / truck across it might mess it up ? The soils here are.... crap when wet. But, using something like that would seem to be the best option. Thanks

 

[ponytug]

The open pore cinder/cement drainage blocks used for driveways are likely going to be unappealing to cattle for crossing. It is going to be hard on their hooves unless it gets fully filled. (Think cattle guard.)

If the blocks are placed correctly, they will hold up to your tractor just fine. I think that if you have clay soil that liquifies, those blocks are also going to be a challenge to place; my guess is that you would need to dig down 18" or so, put in geotextile, then two six inch lifts layers of base rock (0-3/8"), compacting each lift, and then put your blocks in, spread gravel to fill the pores, and then compact that. But they really are meant for flat use, and then where is your water flowing? If you want place the blocks on a slope, you will probably need a flat steel plate on the lower edge to support the sloped blocks to keep them from shifting.(A steel edge guard for lawns, or water tanks should work.)

I have liquid clay soil when wet as well. To make things semipermanent I think that using a base layer of geotextile makes a big difference in keeping whatever material you put on top from not just disappearing into the ooze. Of course, enough material on top of the geotextile and compacted so that the upper layer doesn't shift on the geotextile.

Just my $0.02...

All the best,

Peter

 

[joeyd]

I know you said no concrete and that stone was ok, what about concrete blocks that are intended to be driven on and allows grass to grow thru them? What size of area are you looking at? BTW, These are not the normal cinder blocks you get at the big box store. You may have to order them - I've no idea as to the cost. Nor have I used them, but have seen them used in the neighborhood.

View attachment 731972

With just a quick google search, these are called turf blocks and are about 16"x24"x3" they come 94 sq/ft per bundle/block (2200#s)and are about $250 per bundle or block. They need a compacted sub base, geo fabric and 6" base to let the water seep into then get absorbed by the soil and a sand setting base according to the spec sheet.

 

[JJT]

Is the stream too big for a culvert? My experience - anything less than a culvert washes out in the spring. I'd rather build it right and build it once.

 

[Spike56]

Is the stream too big for a culvert? My experience - anything less than a culvert washes out in the spring. I'd rather build it right and build it once.

Well, it is not a "stream" per say. I have (2) bad spots. One I am working on now. This is an overflow from a 2 acre pond. The pond was built by damming up a ravine. So, when the water overflows, there is a small semi-flat area, then down a slope. The semi-flat area has always been too narrow of an area, and the cattle were walking right there perpendicular to the water flow. My solution initially was to add 6-8" limestone rip-rap to reduce the erosion and still have an area for cattle to cross. This held for a few years, but started to erode mainly due to the cattle trail. I am moving the fence now, such that they cross farther down the slope and adding additional rip-rap close to the overflow area. I could not afford additional 6-8 inch, so using 3-5 inch. Should be able to finish this in 1 week.
The (2nd bad spot) other area is frightening. It is a ravine coming out of a area full of trees that brings a lot (20'wide, 3' deep) of water. I need to cross perpendicular to the water flow on a slope.
In both cases, I do not think a culvert would work ? The water at the top end would always be about 20' wide of an area. So it's not a "stream bed" crossing type situation. I am struggling with this.... cannot even get a concrete truck to either spot even if I could afford it... which I cannot.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

Just call local dirt guys. Ask them for busted concrete. I have some in 2' x 3' to 4' x 4' chunks.

 

[Spike56]

Just call local dirt guys. Ask them for busted concrete. I have some in 2' x 3' to 4' x 4' chunks.

Anywhere close by here, busted concrete is like asking for gold ! EVERYONE wants it, and now they recycle / process it for the county. Just not enough to go around, actually not a lot of concrete anything around here except house slabs - where I live. That would be ideal to get some bigger slabs however.

 

[ponytug]

Wow. In my book, 20'x3' wide water is a it deal, especially water moving at speed. That is an enormous amount of power. That is beyond a simple cattle ford in my book. There is a ford near us for a similar amount of water and it must be over a hundred feet long, and, at least in places, more than five feet deep. The ability of water to move (erode) objects goes up as the velocity to the sixth power. (https://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/0189e/report.pdf)

20'x3' is sixty square feet of water cross section. Three 8' culverts half full is an area of about 75 sq. ft. Having culverts more than half full greatly increases the washout risk, especially as the next decade of weather forecasts are for larger weather events.

Keep us in the loop as you move forward!

All the best,

Peter

 

[Spike56]

Wow. In my book, 20'x3' wide water is a it deal, especially water moving at speed. That is an enormous amount of power. That is beyond a simple cattle ford in my book. There is a ford near us for a similar amount of water and it must be over a hundred feet long, and, at least in places, more than five feet deep. The ability of water to move (erode) objects goes up as the velocity to the sixth power. (https://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/0189e/report.pdf)

20'x3' is sixty square feet of water cross section. Three 8' culverts half full is an area of about 75 sq. ft. Having culverts more than half full greatly increases the washout risk, especially as the next decade of weather forecasts are for larger weather events.

Keep us in the loop as you move forward!

All the best,

Peter

YES ! That it is A LOT of water and is why I wrote in to this forum. Just wanted to check if I was missing out on a solution.
I **think** if I could pour a ground level 10' wide strip of concrete across perpendicular , and be sure to not block the water to cause any further washout, it would work. Of course, I'd have to sell almost everything I own to pay for that

 

[ponytug]

If you do go the route of pouring concrete, I would pour deep footings so that a "gulley washer" doesn't undermine your hard work. (I'm not an engineer, and I don't play one on tv, so this isn't expert advice!) I have seen more than a few fords fail in snap thunderbursts that create a flash flood, almost always by the water getting under the ford...

That sixth power of speed law makes for some enormous earth moving powers as you get more water coming through. Water moving twice as fast has 64 times the sediment eroding and moving power...

If you can borrow material from somewhere else, large culverts might be a lot cheaper than concrete, unless your concrete is a lot cheaper than mine.


All the best,

Peter

 

[Spike56]

If you do go the route of pouring concrete, I would pour deep footings so that a "gulley washer" doesn't undermine your hard work. (I'm not an engineer, and I don't play one on tv, so this isn't expert advice!) I have seen more than a few fords fail in snap thunderbursts that create a flash flood, almost always by the water getting under the ford...

That sixth power of speed law makes for some enormous earth moving powers as you get more water coming through. Water moving twice as fast has 64 times the sediment eroding and moving power...

If you can borrow material from somewhere else, large culverts might be a lot cheaper than concrete, unless your concrete is a lot cheaper than mine.


All the best,

Peter

Thanks Peter. I cannot see any possible solution with Culverts. Just too much water. I am in planning on another area that a culvert would work (so long as we dont get a 10" rain). Just priced a 36"x 16' = 1306.50. Once I add getting rip-rap to guard it, and add price for backhoe install and dirt work.... $$$ Then, I would need to fence so the cattle MUST cross there. Then add fence so to not allow them to run parallel (to far) from the crossing or they will wear trails where it will run water up/down the slope directly to the crossing... ugh. Starting to think I'd be better off selling out and moving.

 

[jyoutz]

For forestry projects we build wet water crossings for vehicles. Basically use a small dozer to dig down and then place large rocks deep in the mud to form a solid base. Then top it with smaller stones about 3” in size. This method does require a vehicle to drive through shallow water, but hardens the ground to make a stable crossing. Culverts have a tendency to blow out following large storm flow, but the hardened crossings stay in good condition.

 

[ponytug]

@Spike56 I hear you on the realities of a budget. If you have rocks and a bulldozer, I think what @jyoutz suggested certainly works; I have driven over more than a few.

All the best,

Peter

 

[jyoutz]

@Spike56 I hear you on the realities of a budget. If you have rocks and a bulldozer, I think what @jyoutz suggested certainly works; I have driven over more than a few.

All the best,

Peter

At an hourly rate, it still may be worth hiring this done. This doesn’t take too many hours for the right equipment.