Re-establishing Survey Corners and Way Points?

[newbury]

I can never understand why somebody would spend 6 figures or more for a house on a small lot... and forgo a few thousand more to make sure they know what they own.

In my case in Alexandria I'm pretty sure the guy that bought the other house had a good idea he didn't own the extra 2 feet and figured if he got it put in concrete drive I'd be the loser.

Another couple of survey things that have happened to me -
Back about 1962 my Dad and Grandad bought "20 acres, more or less" in Essex Center, Vermont. We built a duplex on it, several sheds etc. Wonderful place.
Lot ran from the road to about 10 feet on top of a cliff.
When he went to sell it in about 1984 he got it surveyed, turned out to be over 30 acres. Price increased significantly

When we went to buy our house in Mississippi it was being sold as on a 2.5 acre lot. Turned out to be a 3.5 acre lot for the same price.

 

[oosik]

In the land of mortals ( 4500 sq ft ) - the man with a one or two acre lot is king. I would participate in the survey - couple hundred dollars - AND expect to receive a CC of the completed survey.

 

[Diggin It]

I have not been able to find the pins shown on my property's 1989 survey...

The street has been repaved and 5 years back the city dug up and replaced city sewer line running under shared property line taking out the pins.

Sounds like the City needs to be paying for this new survey.

With lots running a million dollars an acre ...

... people move to the country.

I can never understand why somebody would spend 6 figures or more for a house on a small lot...

Me neither.

$5-6K or more for a survey is why I maintain that whole process needs to be simplified, or done away with and have county surveyors do it all.

 

[Jstpssng]

I spent a year doing mortgage loan inspections and saw some funky things. One in town lot seemed considerably wider than the deed described... there was a phantom street in the plat which was never built. I attempted another on a lakefront home which had to be refinanced before they lost it to the bank; the survey they included with the request showed that the house was over the line by several feet. There was a million dollar home built on a small lot; in 1987, that was a lot of money to spend on a house. It wasn't until time to apply for the final loan that they discovered it was built 11 inches too close to the property line to pass local zoning ordinances; one abutter refused to sign off on a variance, so they had to move the house.
Talk about "Welcome to the neighborhood..."

 

[Jstpssng]

$5-6K or more for a survey is why I maintain that whole process needs to be simplified,

There's more to it than going out and slapping pins in the ground; if that was the case, even I could be a surveyor. There's a fair amount of research involved, not just of your deed but others as well. Often descriptions don't match what's on the ground, and he has to interpolate what's there. They are professionals and deserve professional wages, just as you expected when you were in the work force.

or done away with and have county surveyors do it all.

Why should the rest of us pay to have your land surveyed?

 

[Diggin It]

Why should the rest of us pay to have your land surveyed?

Since deeds and the associated mapping, taxing records, permits and zoning/coding rules are essentially government documents and all may affect municipal or county lines in a number of ways, only government employees should be involved in boundaries. The disputes would be eliminated as would the greed.

Lines would be standardized and consistent no matter how many times a plot was bought or sold.


'This is it and that's that.'

 

[LouNY]

Since deeds and the associated mapping, taxing records, permits and zoning/coding rules are essentially government documents and all may affect municipal or county lines in a number of ways, only government employees should be involved in boundaries. The disputes would be eliminated as would the greed.

Lines would be standardized and consistent no matter how many times a plot was bought or sold.


'This is it and that's that.'

So more governmental interference and meddling, unelected bureaucratic twits to put up with.
Yep, just what is needed.
And what do you mean lines would be standardized and consistent.
If your property is surveyed and the corners are pined properly and no one moves the pins,
how do you get more consistent.
If two surveys don't agree then it's time for a third and thats when it's going to get nasty and it
would make no difference who did the surveying.
Are you saying consistent because of the numerous ways of measurement have changed over the years.
From Chains and links or Rods to feet and tenths of a foot, thats just a simple conversion.

 

[LouNY]

I should add that I find almost none of these discussions apply to my property.
As my entire lot is bounded and described as so many feet roughly in all directions by stone walls.
These stone walls are the boundary, no points or other dimensions are labeled, no latitude or longitude,
no mention of monuments or other locating standards.

 

[ddbackhoe]

Getting surveys done with a sale is very area dependent. In my area less than 10% of sales require a survey. Some areas lenders will require it. If you read most title insurance policies they won’t insure a problem that a survey would uncover.

A house location survey is different than a boundary line check or a corner locate or a monument install. In an instance like this the onus is on the buyer to see “proof”. As a neighbor, I would not pay for their ”proof”.

 

[ddbackhoe]

I can never understand why somebody would spend 6 figures or more for a house on a small lot... and forgo a few thousand more to make sure they know what they own.

Another way to look at it, they get a piece of paper and no one explains to them what all the terms mean. Right of ways, conveyances and easements are rarely explained to a homeowner. Most real estate agents I have encountered could not look at a plat and notice any of those designations either.
A guy recently purchased a 7 acre lot. Brought us an outline plan for construction of house, parking and detached garage/workshop. He was upset when we showed him what could be done. Why? Between setbacks, easements and forest conservation, he had less than a 1/3 acre that was actually buildable.

 

[Diggin It]

A guy recently purchased a 7 acre lot. Brought us an outline plan for construction of house, parking and detached garage/workshop. He was upset when we showed him what could be done. Why? Between setbacks, easements and forest conservation, he had less than a 1/3 acre that was actually buildable.

And that's why I said what I said. If it were simplified and standardized and a matter of record on each parcel in a diagrammed format, it could/should be included in each real estate sale listing from the git-go. There would be no surprises like that. There would be no need for interpretations by private companies of what can and can't be done.

If I wanted to cut 10 acres off a 50 acre parcel, I could draw lines on that diagram and be done with it.

 

[ultrarunner]

Surveys have fascinated me as long as I can remember and over the years have been involved resolving and uncovering problems...

In High School I met with the county surveyor in his office and pointed out about an acre of land was included in the legal description of two adjoining parcels and it got corrected.

On my grandparents farm granite corner posts were set back 10' and noted as such on the survey with the reason a shared drainage ditch ran the length at the line and frost heave was moving the markers.

A Doctor bought the adjoining property, undergrounded the ditch and started a concrete wall in line with the granite markers

I was with my grandfather who was 90 at the time as he explained to the foreman the wall was 10' on farmland... the owner was on vacation during the work...

It was not an easy discussion but my grandfather is soft spoken and said boundary location is fact and we'll documented.

When the foreman finally realized he turned white as a ghost...

All the work stopped, a surveyor called, ditch restored, grass planted, etc...

City of Oakland restored monuments after the monumental fire that incinerated 3000 homes...

City screwed up and the error affected 40 lots with rebuilding well underway.

The solution was the city ended up purchasing one lot and the properties forever shifted or offset 5' feet.

One bad monument can cascade and compound affecting many when a burn obliterates everything except foundation...

 

[crashz]

And that's why I said what I said. If it were simplified and standardized and a matter of record on each parcel in a diagrammed format, it could/should be included in each real estate sale listing from the git-go. There would be no surprises like that. There would be no need for interpretations by private companies of what can and can't be done.

If I wanted to cut 10 acres off a 50 acre parcel, I could draw lines on that diagram and be done with it.

I don't think using state, county or city surveyors would simplify anything. Interpretation, lack of documentation and such are already there and are rooted in the documents that the public offices control. Greed, corruption, and favoritism won't go away by any means. Having private licensed surveyors give a better check-and-balance to the whole system. Yes - that puts the cost directly on the land owner. No- its not perfect.

 

[ultrarunner]

Reached out to the company that did the survey I hold and learned they are backlogged to June... don't know about the cost to reset the pins.

Attached is a picture of the boundary in question

The line identified as WALL is where a deer fence stands erected shortly after survey.

Survey shows non existent "Nail and Shiner" in roadway.

Sanitary sewer manhole cover to the upper far right on survey on my property...

Existing deer fence is the visual causing problems as too often assumed fences run with property lines.

Should be simple enough pointing out manhole is on my property and if not buyers can get their own survey...

Always had good neighbors everywhere I have been and with a little luck the new ones will be too...

I have no idea what a 1955 home of 1500 square feet on a city acre will sell for but every recent sale has set a new high...

Really appreciate being able to pose my questions to the TBN brain trust...

 

[California]

Related question: Can you now rent surveyor's GPS gear? When I worked as surveyor's assistant 50 years ago we occasionally rented transits and chains for occasional temporary employees.

I have a known pin at one back corner. Setting a base station there then running bearing and distance, would locate the other back corner that is in near-impassable brush, down in a ravine. There's no line-of-sight through the jungle.

I had a problem with the neighbor in back cutting his own 4-wheeler trail through at least the unmarked corner and I think on my side of most of the line.

The week after another landowner set that corner pin, I nailed an informal monument to my side of the tree next to the corner pin, and a week after that, the no-good back neighbor moved my informal monument to the bottom of the ravine then argued with me that my (moved) monument was now my back boundary. I painted a foot-wide white band around the tree at the known corner, he couldn't move that.

That neighbor has since died (young) but his primitive trail may be attractive to others so I want to make the property line more obvious.

 

[California]

Attached is a picture of the boundary in question due to the impending sale.

You might get a quicker resolution if you send that same photo to all known parties - RE agent, buyer, buyer's lender, buyer's local title insurance company.

 

[ultrarunner]

Outlive is one strategy dealing with problem neighbor.

 

[ultrarunner]

You might get a quicker resolution if you send that same photo to all known parties - RE agent, buyer, buyer's lender, buyer's local title insurance company.

First learned it was even a issue when the Broker having the listing asked the Executor of the Estate for the key to the locked gate to have the firewood and junk hauled away...

The Executor asked me for access and that is when Red Flag went up...

Broker is holding open tomorrow and I plan to drop in...

Good thing I keep my gate locked or I could have come home to find old box trailer, mixer, etc gone... especially being away at moms much of the time.

 

[dodge man]

That quite a survey, it shows topography also.

A couple of points, we don’t want the government involved in surveying. If they hired qualified people they woukd do a good job but the red tape woukd be endless and the wait time would be terrible.

Can you rent survey grade GPS? Yes you can. Would you be able to run it? No. I wouldn’t say it’s incredibly complex but it takes training. I tell people surveyors aren’t the only people that can measure things. We are the only ones who can determine peoples boundaries. Homeowners can attempt to do it themselves on their own property but that doesn‘t always go well.

I will list three very basic kinds of surveys.

1. Town lots, usually a subdivision was done, split into lots and pins installed at the corners.

2. Metes and bounds. Usually the eastern states but not always. Someone above from New York said his description is described along stone walls, pretty typical.

3. Plss. Stands for public land survey system. This is where the government had the ground surveyed into sections of ground, one mile square. While not exactly 100% true from Indiana west this is usually the case, but there are exceptions. Most of the rural areas are described by these sections or parts thereof.

Obviously each of the above 3 types require a different method by the surveyor. Sorry for the long post.

 

[California]

Broker is holding open tomorrow and I plan to drop in...

Please come back and tell us how it went!


I've mentioned before - A broker listed the empty land next door using my postal address. He refused to revise the listing.

Until I told him that everyone who pulls into my driveway will be told my place isn't for sale and the listing in MLS is from a scammer who will take their deposit and disappear.

That got him going. He went back to the county assessor and was issued the next postal address for his vacant land.