Ugh!! Water Well contractors...

[ddbackhoe]

I recently saw a newspaper article saying that 51 percent of college grads are making less than $30,00 per year, I'm retired from manufacturing maintenance and haven' made that low amount since the late 70's. Many go and get student loans and can't find a job in their field. All the operators in the plants I worked in are making more than $30,00 a year.

Yes, easy to believe. Higher education has been pushed at what expense? Blue collar jobs have been looked down upon as less than menial labor. The US military now doesnt want to promote enlisted members that dont have undergrad degrees. Cant promote to senior enlisted ranks without a conferred associates.
These same people cant understand why the trades bill as high as they do. The least of which are; A) running a business has expenses (transportation, taxes, insurances, tools) B) government rules and regulations now try to prevent homeowners from doing their own anything. (Insurance industry driven?)

 

[randyjs]

Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs is really pushing people to get into the trades rather than college and massive student loans. He has a web site about it but I have never checked it put.

 

[Oaktree]

Wasn’t that long ago company benefits included some kind of retirement/pension package. Now its a 401K and how many “employers” even do profit sharing to the employees account?

I started my first full time job in 1969. No employer I ever worked for offered a retirement/pension until 401K's came along, so those have been on the way out for over half a century now.

 

[grsthegreat]

Both my wifes and my union jobs had pensions and 401k. No other companies we worked for offered these.

 

[JM7500]

I contacted a well driller last week to have my well tested. We are building a house and to get a building permit the well must be tested for flow because it does not have a drillers tag. I think it was drill prior to the state requiring permitting and documentation for wells. The driller told me he may have records for it and I'm waiting to hear from him. Looking at the state well map, his number is on all the wells in the area, so I hope he has records or can flow test the well.

I've always been a diy type. Yesterday, I pulled the pump and installed a pitless adaptor and began trenching. The old underground pipe is PVC and in poor condition, above the frost line. I found the underground power cable right below the surface and just grass holding it in place. I've got the PEX to run to the house but waiting on a spool of UF-B to power the pump. I'm considering a Grundfos pump to replace the existing pump. It's 10-15 years old, and it will become a spare.

 

[Valveman]

I think as more of the population is now on municipal water systems there are less and less well contractors. I do also agree it is hard to get a younger person to invest in the equipment and be willing to do the hard work.

The incompetence is even more pronounced in municipal water systems. Some of the engineers who oversee these installations are scary. Young engineers, right out of college who think they already know everything, don't realize they have decades of learning to do. But because they have an engineering degree they double down on some really wrong ideas. There are the obvious problems like Flint, MI where they did not maintain water quality as needed. But there are tons of bad designs causing negative pressure, stagnate water, and other things that can cause Legionnaires disease, and other problems. Not to mention the waste of money on pumps and systems that are not designed correctly. Even water towers are obsolete and a waste of taxpayer money, but they keep putting up more and repairing the old ones at our expense.

It is much easier and safer for me to keep up with my own water well than to worry about what one of many, many other hands could be doing to my water. Where I live a lot of people in the city are now drilling wells. The water taste better, costs less, and no one else is in control.

 

[Valveman]

I contacted a well driller last week to have my well tested. We are building a house and to get a building permit the well must be tested for flow because it does not have a drillers tag. I think it was drill prior to the state requiring permitting and documentation for wells. The driller told me he may have records for it and I'm waiting to hear from him. Looking at the state well map, his number is on all the wells in the area, so I hope he has records or can flow test the well.

I've always been a diy type. Yesterday, I pulled the pump and installed a pitless adaptor and began trenching. The old underground pipe is PVC and in poor condition, above the frost line. I found the underground power cable right below the surface and just grass holding it in place. I've got the PEX to run to the house but waiting on a spool of UF-B to power the pump. I'm considering a Grundfos pump to replace the existing pump. It's 10-15 years old, and it will become a spare.

You would be surprised what information you can get from an old well driller. I might not be able to remember people's names. But tell me where you live, and if I worked there before I can tell you how deep the well is and what size pump you have. Those kind of things just stick in my head for some reason. Lol!

It is hard to keep an old pump for a spare unless you figure out how to drain the water from the motor and refill it before installing it next time. Not hard to do, but important.

 

[Valveman]

Greetings,
My well is about twenty years old now. It is fairly shallow at only 62 feet deep. When I connected to it I put in an anti-backflow valve. This valve is about two feet from the pitless adapter. I was told by the well driller as well as several other folks to put this valve in. It seems like maybe I should remove it.
My pump is a Grundfos pump and it has worked flawlessly. But I am thinking about avoiding the rush and having it replaced this coming summer when the weather is warm. When I do so I will also install one of those CSVs. After learning about them from the website per your suggestion I think one would be a really good idea.
Since you are in the business do you know if Grundfos still makes good pumps? Is there a better brand? I'm 65 years old and would love to install a pump that will outlast me. Then my son can deal with it.
Thanks,
Eric

A check valve (backflow preventer) after the pitless will put the pitless under tremendous stress each time the pump comes on. When the water punches the check valve after the pitless, there will be a tremendous pressure spike, especially at the pitless. But really a second check valve anywhere in the line causes the same pressure spikes. Again, the only check valve you want is the one right on the submersible pump. Grundfos as you mentioned, has a really good built in check valve, so you don't need to add another anywhere.

Grundfos still makes a good pump. But they have problems with their motors. Franklin still makes the best motor, but I do not like Franklin pumps. My favorite is still a Grundfos pump with a Franklin motor. But you have to order them separately to get it that way. They are not hard to put together. I have several like this well over 20 years old. One was installed in 1982. Using a Cycle Stop Valve on them has greatly improved the life span as well.

The only thing you need to know to add a CSV is the max pressure of the pump, to make sure it doesn't exceed the limit of the CSV and/or pipe. Glad to help with that if needed.

 

[PILOON]

"I might not be able to remember people's names. But tell me where you live, and if I worked there before I can tell you how deep the well is and what size pump you have. Those kind of things just stick in my head for some reason. Lol!"

You are not alone on NAMES!
I also recall small details of bygone events, jobs etc but names?
Back in time I was a sales rep and often an a call I'd face a client but surprisingly enough at the very last second his name would jump out and I'd save face.

Also phone #'s give me problems, but modern cellphones come to the rescue.

PS, my memory is inherited from my mother's side, hers was almost non existent, LOL.

 

[PILOON]

Daughter's chalet uses lake water for household needs.
Would U not know it but it is a 3 wire pump with the start relay guts down in the lake under the ice.
Everything else checks out OK.
So now a new hole in the ice, pump + controls, heated tracing wire etc.
Only good thing is SIL and his kin will do all the work, I'll supervise! , hey I'm 83!

Off to my pump supplier to load up all the materials this PM.
Since the old installation is 25 yrs old they opt to do a whole new installation that will actually be more efficient.
We will also incorporate heated tracing as burial is impossible due to solid bedrock.
The worst will be making the hole in the ice and the rest can be preassembled.

 

[ddbackhoe]

The incompetence is even more pronounced in municipal water systems. Some of the engineers who oversee these installations are scary. Young engineers, right out of college who think they already know everything, don't realize they have decades of learning to do. But because they have an engineering degree they double down on some really wrong ideas.

This is not isolated to water systems or engineers. Ive run into it with “project managers” also. Seems like very few want to admit something might be there fault,

 

[Valveman]

Since the old installation is 25 yrs old they opt to do a whole new installation that will actually be more efficient.

Don't let them talk you into a variable speed pump or VFD as they call them. They claim to be more efficient, when they actually use more energy. The main purpose of a VFD is so your new pump won't last 25 years. They don't make any money when they last. You will spend 3 to 5 times as much and be out of water several times over the coming years if you fall for the variable speed hype.

 

[PILOON]

Don't let them talk you into a variable speed pump or VFD as they call them. They claim to be more efficient, when they actually use more energy. The main purpose of a VFD is so your new pump won't last 25 years. They don't make any money when they last. You will spend 3 to 5 times as much and be out of water several times over the coming years if you fall for the variable speed hype.

Not to worry, I've done some 30 pump installs in my time mostly involving lake water installations.
In this case we are looking at 50 ft run and 15 ft lift but on solid rock so heated tracing is a must plus some insulation. Worst will be the hole in the ice plus a new hole in the foundation. We'll be able to mostly pre-assemble everything. Actually we can go with the cheapest 110 pump and lowest GPM version made---hey, only 15 ft lift and 30 ft run!

Had the old pump been a 4 wire the possibility was that a new control would have done the trick (had one in stock) but pulling the old pump just to access the control relay is not an option at this time. Besides they want ALL NEW for peace of mind.

Update:
Went to my pump wholesaler* this PM and gathered all needed for that update installation.
Kind of shocked at the current prices, (and I get @ (well) plumber's wholesale).
Inflation, I guess.
My first home was $12,000. and my DIL just purchased a 'starter home' and they had to spend over $50K !

LOL, the only thing that does not inflate is my bank balance.

* Being in cottage country, where most chalets are on wells or lake water, he has a very lucrative business.

 

[marhar]

The incompetence is even more pronounced in municipal water systems. Some of the engineers who oversee these installations are scary. Young engineers, right out of college who think they already know everything, don't realize they have decades of learning to do. But because they have an engineering degree they double down on some really wrong ideas. There are the obvious problems like Flint, MI where they did not maintain water quality as needed. But there are tons of bad designs causing negative pressure, stagnate water, and other things that can cause Legionnaires disease, and other problems. Not to mention the waste of money on pumps and systems that are not designed correctly. Even water towers are obsolete and a waste of taxpayer money, but they keep putting up more and repairing the old ones at our expense.

It is much easier and safer for me to keep up with my own water well than to worry about what one of many, many other hands could be doing to my water. Where I live a lot of people in the city are now drilling wells. The water taste better, costs less, and no one else is in control.

As far as keeping your own well I completely agree. Living in rural areas the wells are deep and the water is good. As suburbs spread to farmland and houses are placed closer and closer together well water quality will degrade for some.

 

[Valveman]

This is not isolated to water systems or engineers. Ive run into it with “project managers” also. Seems like very few want to admit something might be there fault,

Back on my soapbox this morning. Yeah it seems we can't get qualified people to work on anything. Auto mechanics, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and everything else is in need of qualified people to do the work. A lot of these things require government approval and licenses, or at least a permit. Don't mean to offend, but the government people who oversee these jobs are less qualified than the unqualified people they are overseeing. I believe most people get these type government jobs because are not capable of getting a job in the industry. They also know they cannot be fired from a government job for incompetence. Now we have the lest qualified people overseeing unqualified contractors.

Plus you almost have to be born into the business to get a drillers license. You need a couple years apprentice and a letter from a driller to even be able to take the test. A driller is not going to do that for just anybody. But you don't have to be the sharpest knife in the drawer to pass the test. Drillers get their license through nepotism and are overseen by the least qualified people on the planet.

How can we expect contractors to do a good job when they are being overseen by incompetent government officials, from the lowest of inspectors to the commander in chief himself?

 

[grsthegreat]

Sorry, gotta call BS.

I have met some crappy inspectors over the 30 + years in construction industry, but most have been very sharp individuals. Alot of them were highly qualified in their field before becoming injured, or simply broken down from years in the trades. To make a blanket statement that all are unqualified is ridiculous.

there can be idiots in any trade, not just contractors.

 

[Valveman]

Sorry, gotta call BS.

I have met some crappy inspectors over the 30 + years in construction industry, but most have been very sharp individuals. Alot of them were highly qualified in their field before becoming injured, or simply broken down from years in the trades. To make a blanket statement that all are unqualified is ridiculous.

there can be idiots in any trade, not just contractors.

Thirty years ago they were much better. Today, qualified personal in any trade, most especially government employees are as rare as hen's teeth. Lol!

Example! Water operator told me the state inspector came to see him. He had pumps broken down, tanks turned off, injector pumps disabled, and was trying to get some things fixed, which was why he was talking to me. There were tons of things that were obviously wrong and easy to spot. After sweating through the inspector looking everything over he knew he would be written up for many things. The young inspector only wrote him up for the security fence being two inches too short and drove away.

I could go on. That was just a quick one. I have also gone toe to toe with the head of the state water agency, and can tell you that person also would have no clue the motor was not even attached to the pump. One thing they are good at is going after anyone who disagrees with them. Taking my life in my own hands for just saying this but, even the DOE is incredibly incorrect about a lot of things these days.

Getting old and pessimistic I know. But you would have to show me a good one for me to believe it.

 

[Egon]

Okay; getting a well drilled takes some waiting.

Do it yourself. Build a Baptist type rig. Lots of variations and not expensive. Good for up to about three hundred feet. Take three or so days depending on soil conditions. These rigs are more sensitive to finding low flow seams than the normal rotary rig. They are quite simple and easy to operate.

Don’t know about the legal end of drilling a well these days but that’s something that has to be looked into.

 

[JethroB]

I had a well drilled a couple of years ago to get off the nasty town water and to get better pressure & flow. I was the last fellow on a 1000 ft of privately run PVC line. 1.5 HP pump is at 450’. There is only one drilling company within 40 miles and they seem to have a good reputation. It took them 2 days and my $12k. They guaranteed 10+ gallons a minute for a set package price regardless of depth necessary but they know the area very well. They’ve been around for decades.

I had an old farmhouse hand dug (or bored?) 3’ x 30’ open top well nearby that we quietly filled in prior to requesting a well permit. I wish I could have kept it for irrigation but I understand the contamination concern.

 

[Nutcracker]

A check valve (backflow preventer) after the pitless will put the pitless under tremendous stress each time the pump comes on. When the water punches the check valve after the pitless, there will be a tremendous pressure spike, especially at the pitless. But really a second check valve anywhere in the line causes the same pressure spikes. Again, the only check valve you want is the one right on the submersible pump. Grundfos as you mentioned, has a really good built in check valve, so you don't need to add another anywhere.

Grundfos still makes a good pump. But they have problems with their motors. Franklin still makes the best motor, but I do not like Franklin pumps. My favorite is still a Grundfos pump with a Franklin motor. But you have to order them separately to get it that way. They are not hard to put together. I have several like this well over 20 years old. One was installed in 1982. Using a Cycle Stop Valve on them has greatly improved the life span as well.

The only thing you need to know to add a CSV is the max pressure of the pump, to make sure it doesn't exceed the limit of the CSV and/or pipe. Glad to help with that if needed.

Agree with old drillers remembering well info on wells they drilled, but would look for the cigar was that was in their mouth. I also like Franklin motors. Goulds 4 inch sub pumps were great when they used Franklin. The company I used to work for quit using Goulds after about 50 years due to that motor change. They went to Franklin pump & motors. I think these Franklin Pumps are rebranded by a few other companies/names now. I mostly drilled but did help pull & install some pumps and the pumps that seemed to last the longest were Goulds Slimline models with Franklins. A lot of them lasted 40 years. Jacuzzi were another long lasting 4 inch sub, of course they had a Franklin. There was one contractor in our area back then who used Jacuzzi 1/2 hp 5 gpm in 300 ft wells. He hung them on 1inch galv & used 3wire 230 volt Jacuzzi, with a small tank, sometime the inside well bladder, ( do u remember those) we were always amazed how long his Jacuzzis lasted, in our opinion his systems were slightly undersized but no one could argue their longevity I wish Goulds & Grundfos would have continued to use Franklin. But that was a while back and maybe their own motors are fine now.

I agree a good well driller is hard to find but same goes to all trades now. I hate to call anyone for service now, it is painful and most do not even call you back.