Re-establishing Survey Corners and Way Points?

[ultrarunner]

Neighboring parcel is for sale for the first time since 1955 to settle the estate and there appears to be confusion among the prospective buyers and agents as to the location of our shared property line...

I have not been able to find the pins shown on my property's 1989 survey...

The street has been repaved and 5 years back the city dug up and replaced city sewer line running under shared property line taking out the pins.

Realtor suggested a survey of the property for sale and wants me to participate which I declined.

I got to thinking wouldn't it be much less expensive avoiding the cost of a survey calling the original company out to find the pins?

Any tips on how to approach the survey company to find three pins on a straight line?

A new survey here tends to run about 5k.

Is the best shot sticking with the original surveyor to save on cost?

 

[LittleBittyBigJohn]

If the neighbors are selling they will probably have to get a survey to satisfy the new buyers. Around here it's pretty typical unless it is very apparent or in a neighborhood. If I were you I would offer around 1/8 of the total cost of the neighbor's survey at most probably. That would probably be half of your property line. Then you would know and maybe show a little neighborly love for the new people. Or if it is solely your property line in question and you are able to find a better way do it. But let them know and do it quickly.

If the county dug up the markers with the utilities then you will never find them. Maybe get a plat of your general area from the court house? It *could* have measurements from another property line that maybe you can find?

 

[dodge man]

I am a retired licensed land surveyor. Without a doubt it would be cheaper to get the original company back out, probably. I say probably because the surveyor that did it in 1989 may be long gone.

The way I look at it, how do I know the pin I find is good? I find the next pin, and so on until I establish a pattern that fits the previous survey. If I did the previous survey, that takes less work than if someone else did it. If someone else did it I feel obligated to check the corners with adjoining properties.

Surveyors also have reputations. Other surveyors in the area usually know them. Did your previous surveyor have a good one? If he had I good reputation I would spend less time checking then if he had a poor one.

 

[dodge man]

Getting surveys done with a sale is very area dependent. In my area less than 10% of sales require a survey. Some areas lenders will require it. If you read most title insurance policies they won’t insure a problem that a survey would uncover.

 

[newbury]

Without an OFFICIAL survey your screwed. As I posted here years ago, Fairfax County redid a road in front of a house I own in Alexandria, Va. and was rented out. I was probably on travel when they placed the driveway apron on the house to the east. Didn't really notice the 2 foot shift to the west.
Years later the other house sold, new owner wanted to pave several feet onto my lot, he thought he owned it. Luckily we caught it. I had a "resurvey" done, they placed the pin well inside the apron. The new owner got it surveyed again, by a different company, same results.
With lots running a million dollars an acre a few feet can matter.

 

[ultrarunner]

99% of the time no survey unless new construction on a tight lot or steep build site.

I remember when a nearby home was built on 2 acres with no survey required or done.

My home was built by the son of the 105 year old neighbor that passed away last year… at one time both home parcels were owned by the mom and later both by the son and when son passed the home his mom in went back to her and I bought the sons.

Me 2 acres and for sale property 1.2 acres.

On my survey the city manhole cones with covers clearly shown and fully within my property… as is the cluster of 4 oaks again on my property.

The confusion is the 6’ high deer fence for my back garden is 20 to 24’ inside from property line to allow vehicle access/storage on my side yard.

Had I found the pin with my metal detector and shovel the plan was to pound a pipe, pull a line and add T-posts and wire.

I made a very good solicited offer to the estate and we all thought it was a go but a codicil to the will adding a 2 year old Great Great Great grandchild as a remainder beneficiary changed that so now it is a full on sale with drone pictures, staging, inspections, Brokers Open and lots of people traipsing down my access road asking about my trailer, mixer and shed and firewood…

Question for surveyors.

Custom here is NOT to Mark far back Corners in Creek Beds and Gullies on homesite average and I find this odd…

Road frontage, home site, etc. well detailed and then a broken straight line on survey delineating 187’ more into poison oak ravine is common.

I guess using the same scale of the plat would require doubling the drawing size.

 

[oosik]

If it's going to present a problem - get with the original surveyor or survey company. These type of situations seldom resolve by themselves.

 

[old and tired]

When people buy houses around here, you can accept the survey on record or pay yourself to get a new one. The seller doesn't do it, at least around here they don't. Neighbor bought without a survey... previous owner's grandson dug up the back corner iron pipe. We're adding a screen in porch and the city requires a new survey first before anything can be done (new f-ing rule).

Anyway, in town, it cost us $600 to have our place surveyed - I was able to show the surveyors 4 of the 5 corner pipes and that was enough to map out our house and we got the permit to build. We never did find that 5th corner....

Our 27.5 acres in the mountains survey was a paper copy from the early 60's and we "accepted" it. When we built up there, the county was fine using that old paper copy as a "new" survey. Estimates there were $6k since we have 2300 feet of creek front as a boundary.

 

[ultrarunner]

5k is about rock bottom…

boundary dispute on the next road…

new owner started having dump trucks of fill brough in and neighbor said wo…

Neighbor single family on 5.5 acres.

It started to become un-civil so 5.5 acre property is having 6k survey done now and yes… all the plans of new homeowner dashed…

 

[Jstpssng]

I can never understand why somebody would spend 6 figures or more for a house on a small lot... and forgo a few thousand more to make sure they know what they own.

 

[oosik]

When my father bought this 80 acres in 1939 - he accepted the 1892 government meets/bounds survey. Since that time the land around me has changed hands a few times. Three of my four property corners have been re-established by modern day surveys.

Surprisingly - the old government surveys were spot on - plus or minus six inches.

The fourth corner - the SW corner - is out in the middle of a big lake. Nobody, including me, gives much of a hoot about having that corner surveyed.

One step even further, Jstpssng. How can a lending institution lend that kind of money without knowing things are "kosher". That's your and my money and one "sloppy" loan could put those funds in jeopardy for a good long time.

 

[TheMan419]

I don't understand why they would expect you to pay for half the survey. I understand you are getting benefit from kowing where the line truly is, but you are not the one that NEEDS to know at this point. For being a good neighbor I would likely offer to pay a few hundred bucks toward the thing but as a result I would also expect to get a copy of it.

 

[ultrarunner]

I can never understand why somebody would spend 6 figures or more for a house on a small lot... and forgo a few thousand more to make sure they know what they own.

Almost all are subdivisions in cities with established fences... Curb markings etc.

Lead time for official survey typically 8-12 weeks dominated by construction permits pending.

In today's fast market with days on market 5 to 12 days with overbids standard it is doubtful in today's market offer would stand a chance.

Strategy used is offer will best highest bonafide offer by 10k...

Of course when it will all crash is anyone's guess.

 

[bdhsfz6]

I know this likely won't help the OP but this is how I handled a boundary problem.

In 1986, the 2 acre parcel next to my 23 acre plot came up for sale. The potential buyer paid for a survey that showed the property line almost 50' off of the one I had done when I bought my land. Under the new survey, I would have lost almost 1/3 of an acre! I contacted my original surveyor who said the boundary had been disputed several times in the past. It involved a meander line associated with a dried up stream bed. He said he did my survey as best he could under the circumstances.

When I told the potential buyer I was going to dispute the new survey, he backed out of the sale. The seller was asking $6K for the land so I bought it myself. I figure I would have spent that much and more in survey & legal costs to settle the dispute. To avoid any future boundary issues, I had my surveyor remove the property line and merge the 2 acre lot with my 23 acre parcel.

 

[EddieWalker]

When my parents sold their home in Hayward and moved to Jackson, they did not get a survey. They paid cash and they never thought they needed it. Then the deer started eating my moms garden and she wanted a fence around their 3 acres. The hired a fence contractor and he found some of the corners, but not all of them. It started to look like the neighbor had removed them and built their house outside of their property, and on my parents property. They paid for a survey and found out that ten feed of the neighbors house was on their land. The neighbor claimed to not know and volunteered to pay for everything to change the property line. In the end, my parents got a free survey, and the same amount of land, just a different property line. This took over a year to deal with, but fortunately, nobody had an attitude and it was relatively painless.

Since you do not have anything to do with the property being sold, all you can do is hope that the buyers insist on a survey. If not, then it's a guessing game on where the line is, which always ends up with one side feeling ripped off.

 

[ultrarunner]

When my father bought this 80 acres in 1939 - he accepted the 1892 government meets/bounds survey. Since that time the land around me has changed hands a few times. Three of my four property corners have been re-established by modern day surveys.

Surprisingly - the old government surveys were spot on - plus or minus six inches.

The fourth corner - the SW corner - is out in the middle of a big lake. Nobody, including me, gives much of a hoot about having that corner surveyed.

One step even further, Jstpssng. How can a lending institution lend that kind of money without knowing things are "kosher". That's your and my money and one "sloppy" loan could put those funds in jeopardy for a good long time.

Title insurance has paid out more than a few times in cases I know...

 

[oosik]

Perhaps in an area where "lot size" is smaller - ultra runner. Here where I live - lot size is measured in hundreds - even thousands - of acres. My 80 acres is a mere pimple on the landscape.

In my 40+ years out here I've never been approached to share in the costs of any surveys. Even though these surveys established three of my four corners by modern survey methods.

The 1892 government survey was/is just fine by me. For that matter - most all the larger plots were the result of long past government surveys. Homesteads ...........

 

[dodge man]

Surveys and how they are done vary by area. There are also state regulations that can affect that also. There are usually two title insurance policies issued when a mortgage is taken on a property. Like I said earlier there is almost always an exclusion they won’t cover a problem a current survey would uncover. This exclusion would show up in the home owners policy. There is also a lenders policy(the bank) and sometimes this exclusion will be waved.

A short story. Before I retired I did a survey where a house was over the line. It was a rural area and the property was about 5 acres. 90% of the house was on the adjoiners property. When I was on the property I saw a person walking a dog. He had lived in the area for years. I’ve learned you can find a lot of info by talking to people and listening. He explained a buddy bought the property to build the house, they probably surveyed it themselves and got it wrong. It had since changed hands a couple of times, both the house and the surrounding property.

The current owner had the house sold but was desperate to fix the problem. I was on the property talking to the adjoining owner and he was agreeable to fixing the problem as long as the acreage was the same. When the current owner of the house showed up I said rather loudly and jokingly to the adjoining owner “I bet you never even knew you owned this house”. The owner of the house didn’t think it was funny. I explained it was all good and they had a corrected deed made that cleared up the mess. I realized my sense of humor wasn’t appreciated that day but me fixing the problem was.

 

[ultrarunner]

I know this likely won't help the OP but this is how I handled a boundary problem.

In 1986, the 2 acre parcel next to my 23 acre plot came up for sale. The potential buyer paid for a survey that showed the property line almost 50' off of the one I had done when I bought my land. Under the new survey, I would have lost almost 1/3 of an acre! I contacted my original surveyor who said the boundary had been disputed several times in the past. It involved a meander line associated with a dried up stream bed. He said he did my survey as best he could under the circumstances.

When I told the potential buyer I was going to dispute the new survey, he backed out of the sale. The seller was asking $6K for the land so I bought it myself. I figure I would have spent that much and more in survey & legal costs to settle the dispute. To avoid any future boundary issues, I had my surveyor remove the property line and merge the 2 acre lot with my 23 acre parcel.

I was thinking buying would be expedeiant and the 91 year old brother could remain in the home where he lived the last 43 years plus he has dogs and has not found a place out of dozens and dozens because two dogs a non starter looking to rent.

Everyone thought the brother would inherit but due to a reverse mortgage wouldn't be able to stay...

My offer included paying off the mortgage with brother carrying 10 year note for the balance with the option if staying and if he stayed I would still pay 1,000 per month and if he moved he would get 4,000 month. The taxes would be 16,500 from the moment it transferred...

Everyone was relieved until the will was read and the Great Great Grandchild came to light as the only descendent and one never met by Great Great Grandma...

 

[ultrarunner]

Perhaps in an area where "lot size" is smaller - ultra runner. Here where I live - lot size is measured in hundreds - even thousands - of acres. My 80 acres is a mere pimple on the landscape.

In my 40+ years out here I've never been approached to share in the costs of any surveys. Even though these surveys established three of my four corners by modern survey methods.

The 1892 government survey was/is just fine by me. For that matter - most all the larger plots were the result of long past government surveys. Homesteads ...........

Most lots in the 4,000 to 4,500 size... this little corner is very unusual with 1 to 2 acres typical...

Maybe I should just put in T-posts knowing I could be off a foot using the manhole covers as reference and scaling my survey map?