Summit Monoblock Directional Control Valve

[mechtheist]

The flow goes through all the valves in series. Pump -> loader -> 3pt. On each valve the flow goes out the tank port or PB port if the valve has PB, and on to the next valve. Unless the valve is actuated, then flow goes out the work ports. When you operate the 3pt, the pressure to run that comes from the pump, through the loader valve.

Now add an additional valve: Pump -> loader -> new valve -> 3pt. The pressure to lift the 3pt goes through the new valve. If you plumb it without using PB the tank port will see that pressure, which maxes out at about 2500 psi.

There are valves with tank ports that can handle full pressure. The dealer installed additional remote on my 3725 is one. But they are not that common.

BTW the last time I heard the factory remote kit was a lot less than other manufacturer's remote kits. With all the stuff you'll need to buy to DIY, easily another $150, plus fabbing brackets, it might make sense to price the factory kit. It does integrate nicely in the cabin.

I'm slowly getting the picture, I think, there is still confusion as to which tank port sees what pressure. From what you're saying, the new valve's tank port would be subjected to the full pressure and it's not rated for that. The one that must be rated for the high pressure would then be the one on the backhoe. It's here that I think is confusing me, the backhoe has only one port or outlet used since there's only two lines to/from it. In your case, you don't have a backhoe, but you have the added valves and it's their tank port that can handle the pressure?

What I would need to do then is to find a way to connect the tank port to the tank? I just did a request for the kit, might be a viable option

 

[Aquamoose]

BTW the last time I heard the factory remote kit was a lot less than other manufacturer's remote kits. With all the stuff you'll need to buy to DIY, easily another $150, plus fabbing brackets, it might make sense to price the factory kit. It does integrate nicely in the cabin.

I completely agree! I don’t recall how much it was to have the dealer add 2 rear remotes when I bought my new 2016 Branson with BH but I didn’t hesitate with that option. It was a factory fit with two levers on the right. Y’all know how space is a premium.

I didn’t like the excess hoses for the BH so I redid the plumbing on the tractor to eliminate the hose and installed a bypass valve, which still mimic the original design.

Hope the OP will see the benefit of getting the factory remote. It just makes sense to do so.

 

[mechtheist]

Fluid flow is not blocked most of the time. It is redirected to perform some type of work. This is why they call the valve a directional control valve. Fluid is always flowing somewhere as long as the pump is pumping.

I guess I do not understand what your main thing you don't understand is.

It's the powerbeyond and tank operation and how the backhoe lines are different somehow I think?. Say you only have one valve, the FEL we'll say, if you refer to the updated diagram, it shows a tank return and a powerbeyond, but since this is only one valve, it won't be connected. So, when you're not operating the FEL, there won't be flow, right? Or, is it the case that the PB will always be connected to something? The diagram seems very incomplete, the FEL valve is the only one showing a tank connection. If fluid has to flow, then the 3pt valve must have it's PB connected since if you're not FEL'ing or 3pt hitching, or backhoeing, that's the only way for it to go. But connected to what?

As to the backhoe, it has either no tank line or no PB line, there is only one hose in and one out. Was that just cost reduction and the fact that the 3pt can't be used when the backhoe is on? The necessity for flow would seem to mean its PB is connected to the out line for the case that the backhoe is on but you're not using it, but that really begs the question of what happens with the fluid used when you're operating it?

I appreciate your input and patience.

Forgot the drawing

 

[mechtheist]

I completely agree! I don’t recall how much it was to have the dealer add 2 rear remotes when I bought my new 2016 Branson with BH but I didn’t hesitate with that option. It was a factory fit with two levers on the right. Y’all know how space is a premium.

I didn’t like the excess hoses for the BH so I redid the plumbing on the tractor to eliminate the hose and installed a bypass valve, which still mimic the original design.

View attachment 724478

View attachment 724479

Hope the OP will see the benefit of getting the factory remote. It just makes sense to do so.

The OP sees the benefit and awaits the cost so the ratio can be pondered.

 

[JM7500]

My rear remotes were $872 installed by my dealer before I picked up my tractor last March. I do not think installation is difficult.

The hydraulic fluid flow is continuous at the set pressure. Changing the engine speed changes the flow rate (GPM), not the pressure. The pump is positive displacement and hydraulic fluid is incompressible. When the fluid reaches the first valve block (loader), it goes out the PB if the loader valves are not operated. If a loader valve is operated, one side opens and send fluid to the cylinder and the other side opens to send the fluid from the cylinder to the tank. If the move the joystick in the opposite direction, the valves reverse. The next set of valves (rear remotes) works the same way receiving the fluid from the previous PB. The 3pt arms are slightly different since they only act in one direction. If no valves are operated to use the fluid, it just returns to the tank. Ultimately, fluid is always leaving the pump and going to the tank. The "return to tank" tube will not maintain pressure because it is open to the atmosphere in the tank.

 

[mechtheist]

My rear remotes were $872 installed by my dealer before I picked up my tractor last March. I do not think installation is difficult.

The hydraulic fluid flow is continuous at the set pressure. Changing the engine speed changes the flow rate (GPM), not the pressure. The pump is positive displacement and hydraulic fluid is incompressible. When the fluid reaches the first valve block (loader), it goes out the PB if the loader valves are not operated. If a loader valve is operated, one side opens and send fluid to the cylinder and the other side opens to send the fluid from the cylinder to the tank. If the move the joystick in the opposite direction, the valves reverse. The next set of valves (rear remotes) works the same way receiving the fluid from the previous PB. The 3pt arms are slightly different since they only act in one direction. If no valves are operated to use the fluid, it just returns to the tank. Ultimately, fluid is always leaving the pump and going to the tank. The "return to tank" tube will not maintain pressure because it is open to the atmosphere in the tank.

It's that stuff in red that is confusing. How does that work? If the 3pt is raised, the fluid used to raise it goes out to the tank. What's happening with the fluid when it's not getting used and returns to the tank? At that point, assuming nothing is being used, don't you have a continuous route from the pump to the tank through the various PB connections that would expose the line to atmospheric pressure?

 

[ericm979]

It's that stuff in red that is confusing. How does that work? If the 3pt is raised, the fluid used to raise it goes out to the tank. What's happening with the fluid when it's not getting used and returns to the tank? At that point, assuming nothing is being used, don't you have a continuous route from the pump to the tank through the various PB connections that would expose the line to atmospheric pressure?

When you raise the 3pt the valve diverts flow to the cylinders inside the transmission case. The fluid fills them and pushes a piston which turns a shaft that exist the transmission case and rotates the arms to pull up the 3pt linkage. When the 3pt is not moving, all the flow from it goes out it's tank port, which dumps directly into the transmission case/tank.

When no valves are being operated the fluid just flows from valve to valve. It's not doing any work so the pressure is just from resistance in the hoses and valves, i.e. pretty low.

I have a BH and the two factory remotes and an additional dealer added remote. The BH's valve stack has only a tank port, no PB. And if you use the 3pt with the BH connected and get the pressure too high you can damage the expensive BH valve stack. Normally that's not an issue since the 3pt arms are off and there's no room for an implement, and the position control does not let you dead head the 3pt at the end of its travel like the simpler spool valves for the loader or more basic types of 3pt controls.

 

[JM7500]

When no valve is operated, all the fluid flows back the tank. When a valve is operated, it diverts the flow to the function, like a hydraulic cylinder. Imagine a tee with fluid coming on one opening. The other two openings have valves. The valves operate so that if one is open the other is closed. The open end goes to the tank. When the operator moves the lever or joystick, the valves change position so the previously closed valve is open and the previously open valve is closed. The now open side pushes the cylinder under pressure until the operator stops or the cylinder can no longer move. If the cylinder stops moving, the pressure relief opens now until the operator stops the function. The pressure relief also returns to tank.

At the end of the circuit, there is not a PB and the fluid returns to the tank. If no function is in use, the fluid goes from the PB port to the next valve stack until it reaches the last one.

To be simpler, if the operator isn't using the loader, etc., the fluid continuous moves from the pump to the tank. When the operator uses a function, the fluid is directed, now under pressure, to the function. If it's a cylinder, the the fluid from the pump moves the cylinder on the pressurized side of the cylinder. The fluid on the other side of the cylinder piston returns to the tank.

Sorry for the long response. I have trouble explaining things.

 

[npalen]

Slightly off topic question regarding the Summit valves (made by Badestnost):

I don't see, in the Summit online catalog, any options for detented valve spools. I'm looking at adding a four spool Summit for rear remotes and would like to have at least one of the spools detented (without pressure release).
Does anyone know if that option is available thru Summit or any other supplier in the U.S.? Thanks in advance.

https://summit-hydraulics.com/product/monoblock-hydraulic-directional-control-valve-4-spool-11-gpm/

 

[ptsg]

Slightly off topic question regarding the Summit valves (made by Badestnost):

I don't see, in the Summit online catalog, any options for detented valve spools. I'm looking at adding a four spool Summit for rear remotes and would like to have at least one of the spools detented (without pressure release).
Does anyone know if that option is available thru Summit or any other supplier in the U.S.? Thanks in advance.

https://summit-hydraulics.com/product/monoblock-hydraulic-directional-control-valve-4-spool-11-gpm/

Here is the kit for that valve:

https://summit-hydraulics.com/product/detents-for-p40-p80-monoblock-hydraulic-control-valves/

 

[npalen]

Here is the kit for that valve:

https://summit-hydraulics.com/product/detents-for-p40-p80-monoblock-hydraulic-control-valves/

Thanks! I could not find it but was guessing you could and did.

 

[ptsg]

Thanks! I could not find it but was guessing you could and did.

No worries. It was under accessories for P40/P80 valves or something like that.

 

[LouNY]

Lets see if I can help or hinder questions on hydraulic systems.

The Branson tractors and most small tractors of today have what is called an open center hydraulic system.
What this means is that there is always flow through the system at very minimal pressure.
To confuse people even more some tractors including Branson use two separate hydraulic pumps,
both of these are open center systems.

These systems can have several components and valves inline.

The "pump" which is sucking oil from the "tank" through the "filter" then a "loader valve" then possibly
a second set of "valves" for a rear remote then to the "3 point controls"

The pump is pulling fluid from the reservoir or tank and pushing it to and through the first valve in the pressure port and
out the power beyond port, from the power beyond port it is feeding another control valve in the pressure port of that valve and out the power beyond port to the next valve the 3 point pressure in and then out to the tank.
This flow path is an OPEN flow path from the tank through the pump through the valves (doesn't matter how many) out the power beyond until the last valve which because it does not feed any more valves does not need a power beyond just an unrestricted return to tank.
This system can be operated at full tractor rpm and be producing the maximum design flow rate at almost zero pressure, this is the normal state of the hydraulic system.
Now each control valve also has work ports and a return to tank, the work ports are were we can see pressure being developed.
When a valve handle is operated it is diverting fluid flow from the main loop into a work port it is doing this by pinching off the main flow path and opening a flow path to a work port. (most of our control valves will have an A and B work port) The fluid flow through the work port may be going to a cylinder and trying to extend that cylinder the resistance to that cylinders extension is what is creating pressure in the system. If we extend that cylinder to it's limits and it can not travel any more we will see our maximum system pressure. The system pressure will increase from almost nothing to the system maximum when the load is restricting the fluid travel.
The reason for the A and B ports is that when we operate the valve to divert fluid flow to work port A as we open port A to the fluid flowing through the system we are also open port B to the return line of the valve this allows the fluid on the other side of the cylinders piston to travel from the cylinder through the valve to the return line and back to the tank.
When we bring the valve back to the center position the fluid in the tractors system is no longer pressurized and is just traveling in the open loop.
The fluid trapped from our valve to and from the cylinder will have pressure on one side and minimal on the other. The trapped pressure is what is applied to the lines and work ports from the loads applied to the cylinder.( your loaded holding up a bucket of dirt, if it took 1500 pounds of pressure in your system to raise that to that position it is also how much static pressure you will have in that side of the cylinder the hose and to the work port of the valve.)
All of our control valves will require a return to tank line to direct the fluid that was used for work back to the tank when not needed

To make it a bit more confusing some tractors Branson included actually use two pumps, one is the main system pump the other is the steering and auxiliary pump these pumps can share a common suction and return to tank but do not need to. Often the steering pump will provide the power steering for the tractor as well as the smaller auxiliary circuits such as the pto clutch pack, the hydraulic cooler loop and many times some transmission lubrication points.
The main system pump is for our loaders and remote valves a backhoe or other attachments.

 

[JM7500]

k5lwq, you explained it much better than me.

 

[K5lwq]

k5lwq, you explained it much better than me.

Lol I doubt that. Lou explained it perfectly. Hopefully that clears up the confusion.

 

[mechtheist]

Thanks all, y'all have helped me a lot. I understand now about the problem with using the valve in question and how the BH gets away with just the two lines. One of the main points of confusion I finally disappeared with LouNY's post, if interested see next post. I really appreciate your efforts and patience, have a good one.

 

[mechtheist]

Lets see if I can help or hinder questions on hydraulic systems.

The Branson tractors and most small tractors of today have what is called an open center hydraulic system.
What this means is that there is always flow through the system at very minimal pressure.
To confuse people even more some tractors including Branson use two separate hydraulic pumps,
both of these are open center systems.

These systems can have several components and valves inline.

The "pump" which is sucking oil from the "tank" through the "filter" then a "loader valve" then possibly
a second set of "valves" for a rear remote then to the "3 point controls"

The pump is pulling fluid from the reservoir or tank and pushing it to and through the first valve in the pressure port and
out the power beyond port, from the power beyond port it is feeding another control valve in the pressure port of that valve and out the power beyond port to the next valve the 3 point pressure in and then out to the tank.
This flow path is an OPEN flow path from the tank through the pump through the valves (doesn't matter how many) out the power beyond until the last valve which because it does not feed any more valves does not need a power beyond just an unrestricted return to tank.
This system can be operated at full tractor rpm and be producing the maximum design flow rate at almost zero pressure, this is the normal state of the hydraulic system.
Now each control valve also has work ports and a return to tank, the work ports are were we can see pressure being developed.
When a valve handle is operated it is diverting fluid flow from the main loop into a work port it is doing this by pinching off the main flow path and opening a flow path to a work port. (most of our control valves will have an A and B work port) The fluid flow through the work port may be going to a cylinder and trying to extend that cylinder the resistance to that cylinders extension is what is creating pressure in the system. If we extend that cylinder to it's limits and it can not travel any more we will see our maximum system pressure. The system pressure will increase from almost nothing to the system maximum when the load is restricting the fluid travel.
The reason for the A and B ports is that when we operate the valve to divert fluid flow to work port A as we open port A to the fluid flowing through the system we are also open port B to the return line of the valve this allows the fluid on the other side of the cylinders piston to travel from the cylinder through the valve to the return line and back to the tank.
When we bring the valve back to the center position the fluid in the tractors system is no longer pressurized and is just traveling in the open loop.
The fluid trapped from our valve to and from the cylinder will have pressure on one side and minimal on the other. The trapped pressure is what is applied to the lines and work ports from the loads applied to the cylinder.( your loaded holding up a bucket of dirt, if it took 1500 pounds of pressure in your system to raise that to that position it is also how much static pressure you will have in that side of the cylinder the hose and to the work port of the valve.)
All of our control valves will require a return to tank line to direct the fluid that was used for work back to the tank when not needed

To make it a bit more confusing some tractors Branson included actually use two pumps, one is the main system pump the other is the steering and auxiliary pump these pumps can share a common suction and return to tank but do not need to. Often the steering pump will provide the power steering for the tractor as well as the smaller auxiliary circuits such as the pto clutch pack, the hydraulic cooler loop and many times some transmission lubrication points.
The main system pump is for our loaders and remote valves a backhoe or other attachments.

Thank you for this, [see the red type ^^] I was under a misconception you managed to clear up--I kept thinking the circulating fluid was at high pressure, so I could not understand how, with nothing getting used and that flow getting dumped to the tank, that that wouldn't drop the pressure making the whole thing unworkable. I see now that as soon as a valve diverts that fluid to move a cylinder, that's when the pressure develops. It's all much clearer and I feel a lot less like an idiot. I've been watching a bunch of videos on various hydraulic issue, including trying to understand the schematics, they're more difficult to deal with than electronics schematics. Thanks again sensai!

 

[mechtheist]

OK, one last question. I didn't want to mar my posts expressing my appreciation with another question. The valve under consideration seems to be laid out in a nearly universal pattern, there are tons of these things that are all almost identical. The front valve on the 3520 and probably most others has this layout. The issue with doing what I proposed is due to having to connect the tank output of the valve to the BH line that then goes to the 3pt arms and the back-pressure that could develop when using the 3pt lift which could damage the valve. So I need to connect the powerbeyond on the valve to the 3pt hitch, which requires a way to connect the tank-out to the tank. Since the front valve is laid out like the standard pattern, then it has two tank ports which are essentially two holes to the same space, I assume for flexibility in hose positioning, see red arrow in the photo. This would basically t into the tank line from the front valve. I think this should work but I've proven that doesn't mean much!

I've been trying to pick up some knowledge of hydraulic schematics, below is from the service manual. The system is an open system, all the videos I've seem show an open system as an 'H' when the control is centered, all lines connected, and a closed system has the 4 inputs deadended to a 'T', which is what the diagram shows. I'm still working on figuring out what's going on with that but it may have something to do with the little circle that seems to tie the P input to the T output. There is also a check valve which you could call a backflow preventer here. I'm thinking that should work, but I've proven that doesn't mean much! Since the flow to the spools is blocked and with the check valve, that sure seems like doing this won't muck up anything.

Is this doable? Is there another path to the tank I could use? I'm waiting on a price on the factory rear remotes but I have a feeling it's going to be a few hundred dollars more so I'd rather go cheap as long as it will work.

 

[K5lwq]

I would use a hydraulic T the tank hose off of the loader valve. I circled where I would put it on your picture.

 

[LouNY]

Just be aware that you will need a Power Beyond plug in the valve that you are using to send the fluid to the P port of the next valve.
Many times the power beyond plug will go in the straight thru port that may be marked as a T port until a power beyond plug is installed.
Attached is a link to a Prince mono block valve installation sheet it shows that the power beyond can be installed in a couple of different
locations and that an internal plug has to be installed in some setups.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/_MoreSpecs/iPrinceMBValves.pdf