Why do I want to buy a pre-Tier4 tractor?

[Cougsfan]

Here is an indication of how much buyers hate Pre Tier 4 emissions. Wait, it shows everything is up. I'll be darned.

In general, Tier 4 engines, if computerized with common rail injection, DOC, DEF and DPF, can get a lot more power per unit displacement because they can clean up the exhaust with their aftertreatment. In addition, the high pressure common rail systems break the diesel into much finer droplets so more of the fuel injected gets burned instead of being used to create a cloud of soot.

I think you are reading way too much into that graph, Harry. Sales are up because more people need tractors, not because they like tier 4. In fact most tractor buyers don't even know what tier 4 is all about.

An injection system that breaks the diesel into finer droplets is a good thing in any diesel, whether the tractor is tier 4 compliant or not, and doesn't necessarily depend on computerization, doc, def and dpf being installed. So your second statement is half right.

 

[MHarryE]

There have been many long threads on this site in which people state that they will never buy a Tier 4 compliant tractor, but maybe this site has hard core anti-tech people. I keep looking to add equipment to my fleet and do not find buyer premiums on pre-Tier 4. In fact I have brochures for mid-size ag tractors and all have a section advertising their clean burning Tier 4 engines. So if a customer is not aware, they have not looked at the specifications. Maybe they don't pay attention but my friends who have updated are impressed with capabilities. But the increased demand for new tractors - explain? Are there that many more people? Or are there that many more people who find the limitations of their tractor can be overcome by upgrading?

 

[PeteN]

Working tractor at said rpms would do the same pretty much.

Correct, but according to the dealer and your post the only way a Branson with the exhaust throttle will complete a Regen cycle is to do what you stated, Park it, set the brakes, turn up the rpms, and walk away. You can keep working if the light starts blinking. I believe other tractor's strategies will regen while the tractor is being used but you must keep the revs up.

 

[jyoutz]

Aspirin is cheaper.

Sucking that stuff for hours isn’t healthy.

 

[mikester]

Tier-4 engines and all the electronics work great until they don't, then they are an expensive PITA nightmare at times. If you have a mechanic on staff and spare vehicles then no problems at all.

Notice that late model transport truck on the side of the road with lights flashing? Limp mode. The dealer-only mechanic has to plug in his laptop to reset the software switch. $500 please...

If you get paid by the mile then no thanks.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

Sucking that stuff for hours isn’t healthy.

My granddaddy lived to 88 and had never been to a doctor or a dentist. Truck patched a 40 all my life, lived on the next hill from us. Maybe the fumes got to him finally after all. We don't know why he died. Doctor said stomach cancer probably. He did buy tobacco in 10 lb bags and never spit, swallowed it.

 

[PeteN]

The flapper is only engaged when a regen is initiated in the light on the DPF button on the dash, instructions says to stop the tractor and put on park brake. Take it up to highest RPM and hold DPF button for 15 seconds and wait for the process to finish.

I was thinking about this some more and I theorized that they need to use that combination of steps to do the regen with the exhaust throttle. I'm still thinking the exhaust throttle is there to retain heat in the exhaust system to get the temps up. However, when you create the restriction from the exhaust throttle you are also restricting the power the engine can develop. That along with the soot restriction in the DPF (which initiated the regen process) would probably be notable if you were actually working the engine hard. Run it at no load/high speeds in a stationary mode and no one will notice. There's also the chance that if you're running around while the regen is occurring of reducing engine speed and not maintaining enough exhaust temp. Still seems like a waste of fuel to me unless you are running something like a wood chipper on the back with the PTO while it is doing its thing.

 

[Cougsfan]

There have been many long threads on this site in which people state that they will never buy a Tier 4 compliant tractor, but maybe this site has hard core anti-tech people.

I know it might appear that people like me are anti-tech, but that's not really true at all. Technology has made life so much more wonderful in many ways. But there is a place for it and a point where it becomes a hindrance rather than a benefit. As Mikester pointed out, "They work great until they don't then, they are an expensive PITA nightmare at times." A tractor is a utility machine that will hopefully be around and still working 40-50 years from now. At least that is how it has been for the last century or so. But computers controls and sophistication is changing all that. In all likelihood a large percentage of today's new tractors will be setting in a junkyard 10 years from now because of things like the electronic controls to engage the hydro static drive no longer works, or the tractor mysteriously dies now and then, or the tractor goes into regen mode when it shouldn't, and no one knows how, or can't afford to fix it. I have seen people sell their relatively new tractor because of frustration over repeated controls failure.

Technology is nice when it works, but horrible when it doesn't. Simplicity has true advantages that you can't deny. In both car and tractor manufacturing , software engineers are beginning to outnumber the mechanical engineers. That makes for great rigs that have impressive features on the showroom floor to help make a sale, but is far less impressive 5 or 10 years down the road when those features fail.

 

[gsganzer]

I'd prefer my tractor be as simple as possible. There's already enough headaches keeping machinery maintained and working. Any potential problems with the emissions equipment on tractors is likely exacerbated because they're likely to sit days/weeks between uses for the average owner and probably spend a good deal of their time in harsher environments (outdoors, rodents under the hood, rain, mud, grime etc.).

The headaches and added costs with more complex equipment isn't imagined. I have a friend in California that owns a trucking company. He said when their fleet swapped to trucks equipped with diesel emissions equipment, his monthly towing and repair bill increased substantially, like nearly double.

I bought my Kubota L3800 at the transition year between the L3800 and the newer L3901 and specifically searched for a dealer that had a new L3800, rather than buy a L3901.

 

[jyoutz]

My granddaddy lived to 88 and had never been to a doctor or a dentist. Truck patched a 40 all my life, lived on the next hill from us. Maybe the fumes got to him finally after all. We don't know why he died. Doctor said stomach cancer probably. He did buy tobacco in 10 lb bags and never spit, swallowed it.

You are more than welcome to suck exhaust fumes just like grandpa did. I prefer working in cleaner air and no sinus congestion. The tier 4 tractors are a joy to operate.

 

[5030]

At some point in time tractors with mufflers need the muffler replaced.

Interesting comment. I guess the muffler and exhaust pipe on my 2002 Kubota M9 is bulletproof because it has a tad over 6000 hours on it and it 'muffles' just fine. Mufflers rot out from condensation inside, not from use.

 

[5030]

You are more than welcome to suck exhaust fumes just like grandpa did. I prefer working in cleaner air and no sinus congestion. The tier 4 tractors are a joy to operate.

Until you have issues that only your dealer can address. T4 units are not consumer fixable, especially the emissions components and the ECM.

You are correct in saying the available post 4 units are getting less and less on the market. Two reasons for that. One, people (like me) are keeping their pre 4 units and because they are hard to get, a used pre 4 units are commanding premium prices. I'll take my fuel efficient, mechanically injected stone simple diesel engines over a post 4 mess anyday.

been offered 30 for one of my pre 4 tractors that is 22 years old and that is about 10 less than I pad new for it. The way it's going, in another few years it will be worth what I paid for it NEW. That will never happen with a post 4 unit. They depreciate.

If Rudolph Diesel was alive today, he'd be pizzed at what tree huggers did to his engine.

 

[jyoutz]

Until you have issues that only your dealer can address. T4 units are not consumer fixable, especially the emissions components and the ECM.

You are correct in saying the available post 4 units are getting less and less on the market. Two reasons for that. One, people (like me) are keeping their pre 4 units and because they are hard to get, a used pre 4 units are commanding premium prices. I'll take my fuel efficient, mechanically injected stone simple diesel engines over a post 4 mess anyday.

been offered 30 for one of my pre 4 tractors that is 22 years old and that is about 10 less than I pad new for it. The way it's going, in another few years it will be worth what I paid for it NEW. That will never happen with a post 4 unit. They depreciate.

If Rudolph Diesel was alive today, he'd be pizzed at what tree huggers did to his engine.

I only change fluids and filters on my old tractor. I have no desire to tear into engines and gearboxes. Anything more goes to the dealer. The same thing with my Dodge/Cummins. I seldom need to take it to the dealer. Modern common rail diesel motors are far more capable and reliable than Rudolph Diesel’s antiques.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

You are more than welcome to suck exhaust fumes just like grandpa did. I prefer working in cleaner air and no sinus congestion. The tier 4 tractors are a joy to operate.

Yeah but when it comes down to it you are relying on those cargo ships in California. We have six tractors from 1980 through early 90's and one fairly new big cab tractor, non DEF. None not one has been to a shop. Believe me they get used. Fuel, engine oil, hydraulic oil, bring on the apocalypse. Hose machine, 60kw generator, cows and ground I can plow. Soon you will be breathing volcanic ash anyway. LaPampa, Italy, Hawaii, ring of fire is starting.

 

[4570Man]

You are more than welcome to suck exhaust fumes just like grandpa did. I prefer working in cleaner air and no sinus congestion. The tier 4 tractors are a joy to operate.

Maybe if you’re using a 50 year old worn out piece of junk. A pre tier tractor runs pretty clean.

 

[DieselBound]

Zero issues with my Tier-IV Kioti now with 702 hrs.

I'm not on any single bandwagon. Have a mix of diesels and all work great! But, yes, more complexity means more things that COULD go wrong; doesn't mean that they will (in a reasonable, expected lifetime): pretty sure that people were predicting doom with the "computers" on VW ALH TDI cars; my car is 21 years-old with 220k miles and there's been ZERO computer issues. Sensors, I won't argue that they're not a source of problems; wish that they were cheaper and that one could stock up on spares, just like one would stock up on other parts that were known failure points on other equipment (pretty hard to find anything that doesn't have some sort of weak spot).

I have old diesel equipment and I figure that being fully depreciated means that if they're pried from my hands (due to regulations or such) then I'm not out all that much. But, this IS something to factor in. When you think you have everything covered it's time to reconsider...

 

[Brambleberry]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I just went and looked at a really well maintained and lowish hours L4150 not too far away from me, for a pretty fair price I think. Has a 2-way tilt 8' snowplow blade on the front, which I would want to remove and possibly try to sell, but the good thing is that it has a 2-lever valve waiting out of the way on the fender if I ever decided to mount a FEL on it. Currently I don't want a FEL since I have a skidsteer to do material moving.

Everything I've been reading about L4150 applauds it for being a really solid and reliable time-tested model.

I forced myself to not take any cash with me so that I will have to chew on the decision to buy it for a few days before pulling the trigger.

This thing seems to have everything (and actually a little more with the 540/750 pto switch) that the M5660 that I am considering brand new has, except for the hydraulic shuttle shift (wet clutch would be nice but the 4140 had a new clutch installed just 500 hours ago), folding ROPS, and the constant rpm management feature. And of course the DPF, which I'd sort of lean towards if it wasn't linked to a computer. The L4150 started up clean as a whistle though, I couldn't even smell the diesel while running it for 20 minutes.

Any last thoughts before I make the move?

 

[Cycledude]

Remember the days when many folks refused to buy anything with electric start ? Or tubeless tires ? Air conditioning ? Obviously the list is never ending.
I have personally have had absolutely no trouble with my tier 4 tractor and if I ever did I’m pretty sure my dealer wouldn’t have much trouble fixing it. I would however prefer to avoid buying any tractor that requires using that extra DEF fluid.

 

[jyoutz]

Remember the days when many folks refused to buy anything with electric start ? Or tubeless tires ? Air conditioning ? Obviously the list is never ending.
I have personally have had absolutely no trouble with my tier 4 tractor and if I ever did I’m pretty sure my dealer wouldn’t have much trouble fixing it. I would however prefer to avoid buying any tractor that requires using that extra DEF fluid.

Walmart sells DEF fluid for $15 for 2.4 gallons. In my Volkswagen car, that much used to last 30k miles. On a tractor, that is at least 100 hours of use. The cost is negligible.

 

[ruffdog]

The last year that Ram tried not using DEF (2012), it didn't work out by just using EGR. I think they switched the next year (with DEF) early during the production year.