Why do I want to buy a pre-Tier4 tractor?

[Brambleberry]

First of all, I want to say how much I appreciate everyone giving their advice to my many questions as I keep looking for an ideal tractor to buy. If I'm overstaying my welcome in this forum, someone just let me know and I'll shut up .

What is the deal with Tier4 emissions that everyone's trying to buy pre-emissions machines? I asked the Kubota salesman about it and he said the issues were with DEF systems, that the fluid is really prone to spoilage, is expensive, and generally it's a PITA. According to him, the DPF on Kubotas are trouble-free so long as you let it Regen when it asks you to.

I've heard of general horror stories but no specifics.

TIA

 

[oosik]

Initially it was somewhat of a problem. Problems with the regen system. Haven't heard much lately. Kubota salesman must have a pre-Tier 4 tractor that he REALLY wants to sell you.

Today I would have no qualms with a Tier 4 unit.

 

[jeff9366]

The last of desirable model pre-Tier IV tractors were sold in 2012 ~ nine years ago.

Adding Tier IV emission controls increased the price of new >25-hp tractors $2,000 to $3,000, at the time it seemed like a big deal to many. Less commented on, tractor horsepower increased 2-hp to 4-hp with Tier IV engine modifications.


What is the deal with Tier4 emissions that everyone is trying to buy pre-emissions machines?

"Everyone" isn't. Every year the number of >25-hp pre-Tier IV tractors declines. Some people want to chase the declining supply of acceptable condition machines. Obviously, emission controls are only one factor deciding the value of a nine year old tractor.

Neal Messick of Messick's tractor offers the opinion that problems with Tier IV emission technology is 90% a function of operator resistance or ignorance.

The average residential tractor operates 60 - 80 engine hours per year, according to industry surveys.

3,000 hours DPF Life / 80 hours = 37.5 years of residential use prior to DPF replacement.

Diesel Particulate Filter supersedes tractor muffler.
At some point in time DPF needs to be replaced.
At some point in time tractors with mufflers need the muffler replaced.



One factor for sure: A nine year old tractor of 'X' model will cost less than a new 'X' successor model tractor today.

 

[EddieWalker]

I do not want a tier 4 tractor. I have never owned a tractor with tier 4 emissions, so it has nothing to do with any issues that I know about first hand. My experience is that in time, everything breaks and wears out. Everything that I've read about tier 4 is expensive and difficult to fix. The computer systems are outrageous if there is an issue. Everything about it seems like an unnecessary expense to what should be a very simple machine. Another issue is that in almost every complaint that I read about it, the owner of the machine is blamed. You don't see this in tractors that where made before 2013. My next tractor is going to have a cab, be 4 wheel drive, and hopefully be as simple to work on and fix a possible.

 

[Tinhack]

2-4hp is beans. You can probably get that by changing the oil and fuel filter.

I've seen nine year old tractors with less than 100 hours on the meter.

I got my Ford 3910 (35 years old now) just before the DEF lunacy started. It's probably worth three times what I paid for it, maybe more. Mine was used by a county for mowing. It was well maintained with many new parts, including an engine rebuild, but suffered from the age cosmetically. I'm taking care of that now.

If I bought a new tractor, it would have to be 4wd, w/cab and loader and cheap. I'd still most likely keep the tractors I have. You need some kind of backup. I feel sorry for the folks with DOA new tractors or tractors that can't be serviced by the owner. Dealer service seems to be a big problem these days.

 

[big bubba]

would never consider a current Tier IV machine for the same reason i would never consider a new pickup today loaded w/sensors, computers, emissions equip that would require a 2nd mortgage to initially purchase & a savings depletion fixing the emissions & sensors equip gone south
i want a tractor to be simple as possible with all the benefits of modern pre Tier IV such as hyd shuttle, heavy duty 12 sp trans, & rock solid Kubota engine reliability etc... the MXX40 models & some prior fit those needs perfectly.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

First of all, I want to say how much I appreciate everyone giving their advice to my many questions as I keep looking for an ideal tractor to buy. If I'm overstaying my welcome in this forum, someone just let me know and I'll shut up .

What is the deal with Tier4 emissions that everyone's trying to buy pre-emissions machines? I asked the Kubota salesman about it and he said the issues were with DEF systems, that the fluid is really prone to spoilage, is expensive, and generally it's a PITA. According to him, the DPF on Kubotas are trouble-free so long as you let it Regen when it asks you to.

I've heard of general horror stories but no specifics.

TIA

Well go finance one of those 100 hp skid steers and have it at the shop 8 months out of the year while it ain't making no money and you still making payments. You can get a quick expensive lesson on tier 4 engines real fast going that route. It quit just as the big snow hit. Went in limp mode. It would run at idle. Other skid steer broke a track. Both right then same place same day. We had 3,000 head of cattle to feed. So we could limp the big skid steer and load feed into the mixer but that is all it could do. The other skid steer a metal cleat fell out of the track so just the rubber was holding it, might as well been limping. Had to un hook mixer from tractor to put round bales in mixer and hook back up. 100 miles plus to a dealer. No trucks to bring new tracks to the dealer because of snow. Cows scattered all over the county in leased pastures. It was a mess. Hay was at another place in a shut down chicken house. 500 head there and they'd be in the house with you real quick. No snow plows here. People worried about getting down the road in cars and SUV 's and here I'd come in a 4x4 truck and gooseneck trailer with 19 rolls of net wrapped hay.

 

[TractorTYMe]

This is why I did careful considerations when buying a tractor, most tractors these days come with common rail diesels needing an ECU to run. TYM/Kukje uses mechanical low tech IDInjection with no ECU. The ONLY ECU it has is the one controlling the flapper on the exhaust for regen cycles, the common operator mistake is to run the engine at low load situations. I have 140h on mine, it has yet to do a regen as I operate mine between 2 - 2.4k (PTO speed).

 

[Cougsfan]

I still hear of people having problems with Tier 4 emission controls. It is not uncommon at all. The Tier 4 systems are getting better, but it is definitely something else that can go wrong with your tractor that wasn't there before. And because that Murphy guy made laws regarding this, the trouble always happens at the worst possible time. Whether it is worth buying an older tractor with unknown problems versus a new Tier 4, I dunno. It probably depends on your frame of mind.

 

[PeteN]

I am by no means a diesel exhaust treatment expert but I do have quite a bit of experience with exhaust emission reduction on gasoline engines. From what I have read the TierIV regulation requires a reduction in exhaust emissions. To do that a DPF (diesel particulate filter) and a DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst) is more than likely necessary. The DPF tries to collect the unburned fuel soot particles while the DOC reduces the HC & CO (NOx too?) from the exhaust stream. I would assume there are some diesel emission engineers on this forum so please correct me if I am wrong. Most catalyst systems need heat to work properly and the DOC is no exception. The DPF is just a soot trap so if you keep the tractors rpms up there will be less soot to capture. I would assume the Regen process can be triggered by time or more likely differential pressure across the DPF. When it gets to a certain level of being "plugged up" it requires more heat to burn off the soot. More rpms/load gets everything hotter including the DOC which probably is adding heat to the process by consuming all the unburnt HC's going through the system. This should then "clean" the DPF and you go on your merry way. Even though it adds a level of complication, the end result is much cleaner exhaust. I don't like the complication either but it is the present and future. I'm not sure why there seems to be a lot of issues with tractors unless there technology is way behind the rest of the diesel engine market. My shopping for my 1st diesel tractor has been eye opening on the Regen stories.

The next thing they add to the diesel emission system is urea (ammonia) which is the DEF fluid you see at your local store. It knocks down the NOx and is stored in an onboard tank and injected into the exhaust stream. Follow a vehicle with that and you can smell the ammonia. Tractors at the compact level don't seem to be at that level - yet. Maybe the 100hp + tractors are though.

Gasoline engines are easier to lower the emissions from the exhaust since there is virtually no soot (Direct Injection gas engines are the exception to this) and the exhaust gas temps are higher than seen in diesel engines. As much as we don't like the cost and complication, just follow a non-catalyst equipped car for a few blocks in town and note the smell of exhaust in the air. Can't imagine what it was like in stop-and-go traffic in a city before the emission equipment became mandated on cars. We all just got used to not inhaling all the bad things that are in the exhaust of an engine.

I was looking at the Branson tractors (20 series) and I see they now have an exhaust valve in the outlet of the exhaust (as mentioned by TYMNorsky) which is probably there to retain heat in the exhaust system to help the soot problem. I wonder if it is active all the time (especially at lower engine speeds). I haven't seen that feature on any of the other CUTs I have looked at but the Branson also has the lowest tech fuel system compared to the common rail systems used on the other brands. Maybe it's fuel prep isn't the best which would result in more soot. That's just conjecture.

 

[TractorTYMe]

The flapper is only engaged when a regen is initiated in the light on the DPF button on the dash, instructions says to stop the tractor and put on park brake. Take it up to highest RPM and hold DPF button for 15 seconds and wait for the process to finish.

 

[MHarryE]

Here is an indication of how much buyers hate Pre Tier 4 emissions. Wait, it shows everything is up. I'll be darned. Read of customers needing to wait for 2023 for the tractor they need now. Many posts telling of dealer lots empty, nothing to buy but old used (meaning pre-Tier 4) tractors. I'm on the 100+ HP waiting list. My dealer told me this morning he should have an answer a week from today. Dealer does have a lot of tractors sitting on his lot - like one of each model for customers to try. They sell NH and Kubota. Was seriously thinking of a used tractor to fill my need at an auction Wednesday but it was a pre-emissions with 8.3 Cummins. 4500 hours on a '95 but they couldn't verify hours on engine and transmission because they were replaced in '16.

In general, Tier 4 engines, if computerized with common rail injection, DOC, DEF and DPF, can get a lot more power per unit displacement because they can clean up the exhaust with their aftertreatment. In addition, the high pressure common rail systems break the diesel into much finer droplets so more of the fuel injected gets burned instead of being used to create a cloud of soot.

 

[PeteN]

The flapper is only engaged when a regen is initiated in the light on the DPF button on the dash, instructions says to stop the tractor and put on park brake. Take it up to highest RPM and hold DPF button for 15 seconds and wait for the process to finish.

Yikes, that is not the way I'd like it to occur. I believe you can do that process with most tractors requiring Regen but most other ones allow you to work right through the Regen process. Not sure why Branson wants you to park it since the biggest requirement on Regen is to get the exhaust system hot. Working the tractor would fulfill that requirement. Might have to rethink where the Branson sits in my possible buy list.

 

[PeteN]

Here is an indication of how much buyers hate Pre Tier 4 emissions. Wait, it shows everything is up. I'll be darned. Read of customers needing to wait for 2023 for the tractor they need now. Many posts telling of dealer lots empty, nothing to buy but old used (meaning pre-Tier 4) tractors. I'm on the 100+ HP waiting list. My dealer told me this morning he should have an answer a week from today. Dealer does have a lot of tractors sitting on his lot - like one of each model for customers to try. They sell NH and Kubota. Was seriously thinking of a used tractor to fill my need at an auction Wednesday but it was a pre-emissions with 8.3 Cummins. 4500 hours on a '95 but they couldn't verify hours on engine and transmission because they were replaced in '16.

In general, Tier 4 engines, if computerized with common rail injection, DOC, DEF and DPF, can get a lot more power per unit displacement because they can clean up the exhaust with their aftertreatment. In addition, the high pressure common rail systems break the diesel into much finer droplets so more of the fuel injected gets burned instead of being used to create a cloud of soot.


View attachment 715298

Agreed. Never was too impressed with the tuned diesel trucks "rolling coal".

 

[ruffdog]

DEF fluid is prone to be contaminated by many sources like using different containers and even the wrong metal fittings.

DEF Contamination and how to avoid it

 

[Doughknob]

Well go finance one of those 100 hp skid steers and have it at the shop 8 months out of the year while it ain't making no money and you still making payments. You can get a quick expensive lesson on tier 4 engines real fast going that route. It quit just as the big snow hit. Went in limp mode. It would run at idle. Other skid steer broke a track. Both right then same place same day. We had 3,000 head of cattle to feed. So we could limp the big skid steer and load feed into the mixer but that is all it could do. The other skid steer a metal cleat fell out of the track so just the rubber was holding it, might as well been limping. Had to un hook mixer from tractor to put round bales in mixer and hook back up. 100 miles plus to a dealer. No trucks to bring new tracks to the dealer because of snow. Cows scattered all over the county in leased pastures. It was a mess. Hay was at another place in a shut down chicken house. 500 head there and they'd be in the house with you real quick. No snow plows here. People worried about getting down the road in cars and SUV 's and here I'd come in a 4x4 truck and gooseneck trailer with 19 rolls of net wrapped hay.

is the sky falling?

 

[jyoutz]

I do not want a tier 4 tractor. I have never owned a tractor with tier 4 emissions, so it has nothing to do with any issues that I know about first hand. My experience is that in time, everything breaks and wears out. Everything that I've read about tier 4 is expensive and difficult to fix. The computer systems are outrageous if there is an issue. Everything about it seems like an unnecessary expense to what should be a very simple machine. Another issue is that in almost every complaint that I read about it, the owner of the machine is blamed. You don't see this in tractors that where made before 2013. My next tractor is going to have a cab, be 4 wheel drive, and hopefully be as simple to work on and fix a possible.

I want a tier 4 tractor because my old pre-emissions tractor fumes give me a headache after about 1 hour of use.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

is the sky falling?

That's not the only thing. All the trucks had problems. 5k for to fix at stealer. 4k for a private guy and his high school daughters to delete. Guess which way we went... But we can't get the software for the skid steer but we absolutely can buy an older one.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

I want a tier 4 tractor because my old pre-emissions tractor fumes give me a headache after about 1 hour of use.

Aspirin is cheaper.

 

[TractorTYMe]

Yikes, that is not the way I'd like it to occur. I believe you can do that process with most tractors requiring Regen but most other ones allow you to work right through the Regen process. Not sure why Branson wants you to park it since the biggest requirement on Regen is to get the exhaust system hot. Working the tractor would fulfill that requirement. Might have to rethink where the Branson sits in my possible buy list.

Working tractor at said rpms would do the same pretty much.