Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Hay Dude]

Sounds like great stuff for the rich birthing/non-birthing persons!
The poor, non south facing, non home owning, no garage having, apartment/townhouse/condo living, smaller bank account, ~250 million other Americans will have to be environmentally bad people and drive their shameful, inefficient ICE vehicles.
How many beautiful trees need to be cut down so solar panels will work efficiently?
The rich keep getting richer and better than the great unwashed by the day! Funny how that works. Seems “unfair”, though. Lol
IMO, too many Americans are left out. The only way you can be a perfectly green little citizen is with big money.
The aim should be to get a lot more Americans driving EVs, because the goal should be a cleaner environment, not just end up with the rich to subtly guilt those who can’t afford EVs.

 

[Frankenkubota]

No, but I'd like to see people pay a similar percentage of their income in taxes so we'd all have skin in the game. Yes, the flat tax! AHHHHHhhhhhh! No caps on FICA either. But that's income related, not fuel related, which we're discussing here.

Bob makes $35K per year and drives 15,000 miles a year in a car that gets decent gas mileage. He uses about 500 gallons of gas a year.

Bill makes $250K per year and drives 15,000 miles a year in a car that gets the same decent mileage. He uses about 500 gallons of gas a year as well.

They both live in Indiana, where the taxes are about 65 cents per gallon of gas, so both pay about $325 in gas taxes per year.

So:
Bob pays about 0.93% of his annual income in fuel taxes.
Bill pays about 0.13% of his annual income in fuel taxes.

Bob pays a bit over 7 times the amount of his total income in fuel taxes that Bill does.

Also, figure Bob and Bill both pay $1500 a year for fuel at $3 per gallon.
Bob pays 4.29% of his total income for fuel.
Bill pays 0.6% of his total income for fuel.

Sucks to be Bob.

Most of us can understand that we can apply that same example to groceries, utilities, mortgages, car payments, insurance, healthcare, costs associated with children, and even tractors.

When you start looking at things in that manner, you start wondering how everyone can pay their fair share without overcharging lower income people so they don't feel screwed, or penalizing people that have higher income so they don't feel screwed.

How that could be accomplished with cars, metered mileage, and fuel tax is beyond me.

well said except....you are trying to apply common sence and logic to our tax code.

the tax code is a tool used by the govt for social engineering.

 

[Frankenkubota]

My point is not that Bill should pay more road taxes.

My point is lower income people have to pay a much higher percentage of their income for all BASIC needs just to survive than higher income people. Food, clothing, rent/mortgage, utilities... everything.

Life isn't fair. We all know that. How do we make it more fair for all?

we could wait for the govt to fix it.....

 

[Frankenkubota]

I'm surprised nothing has been said about the chevy ev that's been going into spontaneous combustion.

I know little about it but, they are telling owners not to park next to their houses.

out come the drop cords

 

[txdon]

we could wait for the govt to fix it.....

MossRoad said:
"My point is not that Bill should pay more road taxes.

My point is lower income people have to pay a much higher percentage of their income for all BASIC needs just to survive than higher income people. Food, clothing, rent/mortgage, utilities... everything.

Life isn't fair. We all know that. How do we make it more fair for all?"

The Government is here to fix it Frankenkubota and MossRoad. Road Tax based on income is coming.

San Francisco considering congestion tax on high-earning drivers

San Francisco is looking into taxing downtown drivers in an effort to cut down on congestion.

www.foxbusiness.com

 

[MossRoad]

I'm surprised nothing has been said about the chevy ev that's been going into spontaneous combustion.

I know little about it but, they are telling owners not to park next to their houses.

out come the drop cords

That was mentioned in this thread days, maybe weeks ago.

 

[MossRoad]

MossRoad said:
"My point is not that Bill should pay more road taxes.

My point is lower income people have to pay a much higher percentage of their income for all BASIC needs just to survive than higher income people. Food, clothing, rent/mortgage, utilities... everything.

Life isn't fair. We all know that. How do we make it more fair for all?"

The Government is here to fix it Frankenkubota and MossRoad. Road Tax based on income is coming.

San Francisco considering congestion tax on high-earning drivers

San Francisco is looking into taxing downtown drivers in an effort to cut down on congestion.

www.foxbusiness.com

Splendid. I'd probably benefit from it.

 

[Egon]

There are countries where road violation fines are based on income.

 

[txdon]

There are countries where road violation fines are based on income.

How is income determined or proved for paying fines?

 

[Jchonline]

Ok. I'll prove you wrong.


Every never-done-anything armchair PV engineer says that. In the real world a static mount costs less than 5% of the capacity of the system. Is much cheaper to add more PV panels than to articulate the mount. Almost no PV system uses an articulated mount.

I have a big flat south-facing roof perfect for PV but for it's 12° slope. The annual difference between my suboptimal 12° and optimal 30° is 5%. Not worth the space and effort to add 18°. Not worth one row shading the row above. But considering 12° is near optimal during the summer, its even easier to mount panels simple and flat.


Now you are fabricating additional conditions. The original statement was "$10,000 will charge an EV" and now you want unlimited daily mileage?

My locale has an average annual daily 4 solar hours. That means a 6kW PV system will produce 24kWh/day. My power hog Tesla Model S will drive 63 miles according to the EPA. A newer Model 3 will go 92 miles.

Car doesn't have to be connected full time. I'll grid-tie and use the utility as my power bank. Give them the excess power during they day when they need it then take it back at night when I need it.


Nope. I get to make up rules too. I didn't include the cost of the driveway, the garage, the real estate to put the PV system. The increased cost of homeowner's insurance. I didn't select a system size for maximum value or optimal size for the home. This is TractorByNet so all of our project labor is free.

Tesla's online fixed-price quote for complete installation is $24,600 for 12.24 kW of generating capacity. Also wants to add $17,000 for 2 optional Powerwalls. That is $2/kW for PV, or $12,000 for the $9600 system I referenced. Then -26% Federal tax credit puts us well under $10k, full professionally installed price.

Design your Solar + Powerwall system | Tesla

Design and order solar to take control of your home's energy production and immediately save on your utility bill.

www.tesla.com

Nope, PV runs the HVAC saving me the cost of electricity during the day that I can use those funds to buy electricity for the car at night.

No you didn’t sorry.

I live off grid and have for several years. Most of what you are stating just isn’t practical. Likely the only “armchair” PV engineer is you, but I will do the decent thing and ask first.

Do you have a PV array powering your home or charging your EV in any capacity today?

I get it, most people that have no experience with actual solar systems (I mean non grid-tied folks or non grid-tied energy nerds). If they have a grid tied system they think they are helping the planet and using clean energy. The benefit of a grid tied solar system is its distributed nature. If you have 6kW and your neighbor has 6kW that is a bunch of power. if they arent using it, you can be and still get the benefit. I am not discouraging grid tied systems..I think they are the first step. We need solar on every home, every business to start. Then we have distributed production during the day solved. Next we have to work on storage of the excess…and that is where we are currently falling flat. Once we have storage solved we will be in much better shape.


A few things to point out in your post as well. The Grid doesn’t “store or bank” power. The power plant is either running or it isn’t (Unless you are solely powered by hydroelectric). But every other source of power the grid supplies is on demand. Simple test..shut down the power plant at night and tell me how much “banked” electricity it is feeding you. Zero. What is really happening is the power plant is running at minimum during the day, Then it ramps up when the Sun goes down. That is not banking anything. That is just on demand.


You still haven’t provided a solution that will allow PV to directly charge an EV for less than $10k. Tesla’s solution is Grid-tied, meaning you aren’t actually powering anything in your home off of the solar panels on your property. You are feeding power to the grid. You are not feeding power from your PV array to your EV. The Solaredge will do that, but that is a separate inverter. You can’t have 1 PV array connected to 2 inverters.

Lots of Grid tied folks think they are charging their vehicles with clean energy…it just isn’t the case. Shut off your power from the grid and see how much you get to charge your EV from the PV array. You need a very specific setup to enable “Island mode” as @3930dave mentioned if you really want PV to EV directly.

 

[Agvg]

How is income determined or proved for paying fines?

The government usually have a pretty good idea how much you earn as you pay taxes on income in most western countries.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Mission Valley's John Hine Mazda closing its doors after 64 years in San Diego

Technology is not only changing the cars we buy but also HOW we buy them. Sounds like Carvana is making a huge impact as traditional car dealerships fade away since pure EV makers tend not to outsource sales to third parties.

 

[sd455dan]

Mission Valley's John Hine Mazda closing its doors after 64 years in San Diego

Technology is not only changing the cars we buy but also HOW we buy them. Sounds like Carvana is making a huge impact as traditional car dealerships fade away since pure EV makers tend not to outsource sales to third parties.

Cautionary tale of what can go wrong with an online vendor. Couple parts to this TheFastLane car experience/nightmare.

This was not CARVANA to be clear and also not a pure EV but a plugin hybrid

 

[Gale Hawkins]

There are countries where road violation fines are based on income.

Kind of like child support?

 

[Jchonline]

No one suggested a single Powerwall would let a surgeon's house stay off-grid. It will keep the PV system running which was the original prompt of this discussion, the surgeons' surprise their homes' PV shut down when the grid shut down.

"5kwh an hour"? An hour squared?

Electric water heater elements are typically 3500W-5500W, 4500W is most common. Two per water heater but only one runs unless demand is heavy. One element would be about 5kW for estimating purposes and 5kWh if left on for an hour.

A Tesla Powerwall 2 is rated for 5.8kVA (kW but allowing for power factor) continuous output.

The first Powerwall costs $3k extra for the installation of a Tesla Energy Gateway. This monitors the flow of power in/out and disconnects from the utility in the event of an outage. And reconnects when the grid resumes. Controls are added for things such as water heaters and slow starts for HVAC so as not to slam the Powerwall(s). The Energy Gateway can automatically disable the hot water heater.

The original discussion was of California surgeons disappointed their elaborate PV systems did not keep their home running during CA rolling brownouts. Tesla recommends 2-3 Powerwalls for 12kW PV systems. The Powerwall serves to bank PV power if your grid-tie pays less for your PV power than it sells its power to you. For those with aggressive T.O.U. pricing the Powerwall can charge off the grid at night to provide lower cost power during the day, no PV system required. The Tesla Energy Gateway is where these decisions are made. Tesla subscribes to weather forecasting services and will alter your energy schedule accordingly.

My modest home in northern Alabama can consume 1800 kWh on a hot summer or cold winter month. Or 700 kWh on a mild month. Call it 60 kWh/day. Have been pleasantly surprised at how little power friends' homes in California consume. The difference here is no developer will build more than stick walls with brick veneer and insulation blown in the attic. In CA friends' walls were 18-24" thick and roof was ceramic tile.

Yes, Tesla built the Powerwall specifically to combat the energy costs in CA.

Surge capacity is one thing, but no free lunch. If you run an electric hot water heater, it just runs at 4kW when heating water. Sure a heat pump is much more efficient, but still thousands of kW usage a year.

I use about 12-15kWh/day. Home is very energy efficient (less than 5 air exchanges/hour, R60 ceiling R40 walls, triple pane glass on South, etc) . We do use propane for hot water, radiant. Wood stove for most heat in the winter with in-floor radiant as backup.

Ironically most of that usage is technology stuff and pumps (soft start well pump, pressure pump, septic pump, radiant pump). Computer for work, Starlink (pulls 100W by itself).

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Russia Is Finally Embracing The Electric Vehicle Boom | OilPrice.com

Elon Musk has mentioned Russia might support a Giga Factory.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

No, but I'd like to see people pay a similar percentage of their income in taxes so we'd all have skin in the game. Yes, the flat tax! AHHHHHhhhhhh! No caps on FICA either. But that's income related, not fuel related, which we're discussing here.

Bob makes $35K per year and drives 15,000 miles a year in a car that gets decent gas mileage. He uses about 500 gallons of gas a year.

Bill makes $250K per year and drives 15,000 miles a year in a car that gets the same decent mileage. He uses about 500 gallons of gas a year as well.

They both live in Indiana, where the taxes are about 65 cents per gallon of gas, so both pay about $325 in gas taxes per year.

So:
Bob pays about 0.93% of his annual income in fuel taxes.
Bill pays about 0.13% of his annual income in fuel taxes.

Bob pays a bit over 7 times the amount of his total income in fuel taxes that Bill does.

Also, figure Bob and Bill both pay $1500 a year for fuel at $3 per gallon.
Bob pays 4.29% of his total income for fuel.
Bill pays 0.6% of his total income for fuel.

Sucks to be Bob.

Most of us can understand that we can apply that same example to groceries, utilities, mortgages, car payments, insurance, healthcare, costs associated with children, and even tractors.

When you start looking at things in that manner, you start wondering how everyone can pay their fair share without overcharging lower income people so they don't feel screwed, or penalizing people that have higher income so they don't feel screwed.

How that could be accomplished with cars, metered mileage, and fuel tax is beyond me.

Taxing people lead to a new world power 250 years ago and a declining future for the taxer so it's a touchy subject.

I expected fuel tax question will take care of itself as the private ownership of cars drops like a rock in the future. At state level some EV owners pay no road tax and others are paying more than fossil fueled car owners do. At the federal level there may be continuing bribes to buy EV and I do not know what is happening to the fuel tax at the Federal level.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

How is income determined or proved for paying fines?

Perhaps like it is for child support?

 

[Jchonline]

Russia Is Finally Embracing The Electric Vehicle Boom | OilPrice.com

Elon Musk has mentioned Russia might support a Giga Factory.

Very interesting given their plentiful supply of fossil fuels. Maybe even Russia is tired of the pollution?

 

[Gale Hawkins]

In the USA is if you have a social security number you have no privacy financially speaking.