Is a 3hp upgrade worth it?

[SirFallalot]

Hey all,

I have a Hinomoto C144 (the plaque says 17hp, but i've been told it's 14 at pto or drawbar, name suggests it too (C 14hp 4whd). It's the same as the Massey 1010. I'm considering trading it for a C174 (same as Massey 1020 *I think*).

This is mostly for tight vineyard work, with a max row width of 120-130cm and tight turns on which sometimes I scrape the transport box on posts and walls. It does this 80% fine, however it's a bit under powered as it's very hilly, I do need to increase front ballast, but the typical 100kg 3pt load makes the front quite light, and will send me from 3rd to 2nd in most uphills, same with the empty 420kg trailer, which is about half the speed. One of the typical wood gathering places has a steep ""road"", it's shaped like a U with trees on the sides, so I wasn't too worried, but loading the trailer more than half sends all 4 wheels spinnin' on the rock, and I don't really trust going up there with the box either (too long to reverse), I end up using my Samurai.

My struggle is, according to specs it's a 100cm*200cm (110 wide cause I turned the wheels, and probably a bit longer with the weights etc), and all the replacements I've found are at least 250cm long (according to tractorData), not sure if my length doesn't count the weights and the other's do or something, but the 24 wheel suggests it's much bigger (mine is 16). Half a meter is a lot, and I think it'd probably mean not being able to make some of the turns.

The 174 has an extra 100cc, 3hp, 50kg and a medium range, but is only a couple cms bigger. The one I'm looking at has 2 remotes installed too. Do you guys think it's a worthwhile upgrade?
There's a lot more choice with newer tractors going into the 20+ hp range while keeping it small, with a lot more farkles too, but not only am I an "old things guy", my budget is ~4k euros (Portugal) and I'd be afraid to scratch up a 6-10k tractor.

Here's some example pics.


Thanks for the advice.

 

[JCoastie]

Beautiful lands you have there.
Not sure about the seat of the pants feel, but when dealing with such small numbers, 17hp is 21.5% more than 14, so it may make a difference.

 

[the old grind]

We buy hp and use torque. That said, IMO just gaining a 'medium' range would win you over within a few hours in the seat. BTDT, and rear remotes could be another big plus.

 

[Egon]

I’d be hesitant to spend money for just three horse power.

consider rigging up a holder for the weights so they are farther forward giving the front wheels more traction.

 

[SirFallalot]

We buy hp and use torque. That said, IMO just gaining a 'medium' range would win you over within a few hours in the seat. BTDT, and rear remotes could be another big plus.

Indeed, currently the ratios between the gears in high range is too wide, 3rd is fine, but 2nd feels like it should be first, and first is about the same a 3rd low iirc. Sometimes it's hard to select the right one. The remotes also interest me, as I plan do get some implements that will require them, and to build some other stuff.

Beautiful lands you have there.
Not sure about the seat of the pants feel, but when dealing with such small numbers, 17hp is 21.5% more than 14, so it may make a difference.

Well thank you yes, I was thinking percentage wise, I imagine on bigger tractors the difference is negligible

I’d be hesitant to spend money for just three horse power.

consider rigging up a holder for the weights so they are farther forward giving the front wheels more traction.

Building it as we speak. I got a great deal on mine (someone had debts to pay) so I'm not too hesitant to trade up for a bit extra.
.

 

[Beaver Cove Deere]

Nobody is going to be able to feel a 3HP change.

 

[SirFallalot]

Nobody is going to be able to feel a 3HP change.

That's not what she said

 

[bmaverick]

On the older Japan gray market tractors, the Hp was based on JIS and other Asian standards back in the day. Moving those standards forward into an SAE level of today, the numbers will rise a little. My machine is rated as 26Hp Japan JIS, yet looking at data per the Nebraska Tests, it can be 31Hp.

Likewise, the Massey 1010 shows 16Hp engine and 13PTO. Though, no test showing any real data power curves.
TractorData.com Massey Ferguson 1010 tractor information

It's not ease comparing the JIS Hp to the SAE Hp standards. In some instances it's a few percentages of being really close and others as far off as 15%.

With all that said, 3Hp can be a wash from the engine. Now, engine size for a longer stroke of the same sized pistons would prove itself. And the mid-range gears are an additional benefit.

 

[ning]

Nobody is going to be able to feel a 3HP change.

If you had 14hp, and suddenly got a 3HP boost, you'd feel it (+20%).

My 35hp tractor, upgrading to a 38, wouldn't be too impressive (+8%). The equivalent for me would be a 42hp tractor - which for my purposes wouldn't gain me much, because 35 is already doing the job, but in OP's case, the 14hp isn't doing the job, and he's considering if adding 20% hp would.

@SirFallalot - Is there a particular C174 that you're considering? Could you borrow/demo/rent it for a day to try it?

 

[Snowlan]

Nobody is going to be able to feel a 3HP change.

A person moving wood by hand will most certainly notice a 3HP change, and 3HP doubled to 6HP is a big change, etc. It all depends how close a given situation is to the extremes.

I'm not familiar with these tractors, if some searching could uncover HP and Torque curves for the engines it would be helpful. If the numbers are rounded off up or down for either engine it can make the difference even less, or greater. Others have already touched on the combined benefits of mid range and rear remotes maybe making the overall upgrade worth while. Also, does the upgrade cost much if you are able to sell the current tractor?

 

[SirFallalot]

@SirFallalot - Is there a particular C174 that you're considering? Could you borrow/demo/rent it for a day to try it?

Yep, I can only find 3 in the country, the closest is 1h away and the one that supposedly has the remotes, plan to view it and give it a go this weekend. Only weird thing is it looks like the tiller is counter on the lift arms the lower link, not sure if it's equipped with non standard 3pt, but I could changeover my own before I sell it. What o you think? My gran would be happy, she hates blue, wanted me to paint mine red. Maybe I should try to find a yanmar

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[paulfun9]

Nobody is going to be able to feel a 3HP change.

As long as the torque is increased along with the HP and the operator is running the same property with the same loads You definately would be able to feel, see and define a difference.

Heck test a mower with a 16 hp motor, then back to back it with a 18 hp motor with the same deck and you will both feel and see the difference.

 

[SirFallalot]

Also, does the upgrade cost much if you are able to sell the current tractor?

Unlikely, mine has documents (desirable, adds 500-1k to the value), and if I take away the things that came with it for 4.5k (1T trailer with plates, tiller which is probs too big for it, I never used it, 100l sprayer), it probably cost 3k, so I'd be able to sell it for the same if not more than that C174, plus I'd sell the tiller I have.
Not sure about lack of plates, as I do use the public road in 1-2km range and have insurance on mine, but the gendarmerie doesn't seem too bothered, maybe I'd swap the plates and stickers before selling the other one ahah!

Before this I was considering just getting a bigger tractor (they cost the same, sometimes less than these stupid compacts lol!) and keeping both, but if I can just squeeze a few extra hp out of this form factor it makes more economical sense.

 

[Beaver Cove Deere]

As long as the torque is increased along with the HP and the operator is running the same property with the same loads You definately would be able to feel, see and define a difference.

Heck test a mower with a 16 hp motor, then back to back it with a 18 hp motor with the same deck and you will both feel and see the difference.

YA. I'd like to see someone telling the difference between the two. This goes a lot deeper than horsepower as you alluded to. The losses running thru the hydro transmission are going to result in a non significant transfer of power.

In your example of a lawn mower sure because that mower has a limited purpose in life unlike a tractor that weighs more with a lot more moving mass. Same with a 5 HP X 24" snowblower.

 

[ptsg]

There is a good looking Daedong (Kioti) T2600 in Braga with only 971 hours for €3500. Doesn't have documents though, so I don't think you're interested on that one.

It's a 25 HP machine and it's a little bit bigger than yours but I'm sure it would fit right it. Can't really find much specs about it though.

The same tractor with documents/title and license plate would bump the price up to €6000 easily.

 

[paulfun9]

YA. I'd like to see someone telling the difference between the two. This goes a lot deeper than horsepower as you alluded to. The losses running thru the hydro transmission are going to result in a non significant transfer of power.

In your example of a lawn mower sure because that mower has a limited purpose in life unlike a tractor that weighs more with a lot more moving mass. Same with a 5 HP X 24" snowblower.

Honestlily if you could get 2 more ponies to the ground you would be able to find the difference when doing the more repetitive tasks with your tractor.
The question of who or how many could feel or tell the difference would depend more on the things discussed or implied.
As they call it in the racing world the Butt dyno on most is very inaccurate but there are some who can at least feel a difference and with things like stop watches, or watching close at an RPM drop can usually confirm a positive gain even when its slight.
Here is the question to ponder.
A 3 HP gain will be what at the wheels after figuring the average percentage of loss per HP going threw the gears or PTO?

Who out of how many can actually feel it without the torque having a equal or greater rise would be the most appropriate question.
I would say most wouldn’t feel it without the torque rise but there would most likely be a measurable difference that would be more in line with my mower example.

 

[the old grind]

IIRC the OP is looking at 'geared' tractors so we could skip the 2-3hp a HST pump 'loses' and add 50 lbs or more (?) with a 'different' (hp) model. Imagining my 5-speed pedal bike compared to my 12-speed there a gear for every grade and effort but more choices or fewer range/gear shift combos might make operating more convenient if not more productive.

btw, for all we know the OP doesn't need as much 'more' as we wish he had.

 

[droptop]

I think that the bigger issue is trading the devil that you know for the devil that you don't. You know the reliability of your current tractor, trading for another old tractor just to get 3 more HP seems like a big risk. Unless you KNOW that the bigger tractor is just as good as the one you have, keep what you got.

 

[the old grind]

More than one to choose from IIRC.

 

[SirFallalot]

IIRC the OP is looking at 'geared' tractors so we could skip the 2-3hp a HST pump 'loses' and add 50 lbs or more (?) with a 'different' (hp) model. Imagining my 5-speed pedal bike compared to my 12-speed there a gear for every grade and effort but more choices or fewer range/gear shift combos might make operating more convenient if not more productive.

btw, for all we know the OP doesn't need as much 'more' as we wish he had.

Yep both are geared. Discussing how much you can feel 3hp, currently, my tractor can *just about* not do some things, like keeping 3rd going uphill, 2 to 3rd is half or less the speed, sure we're not getting anywhere in a rush, but it's frustrating. E.g. in one of the 1km stretches it keep 3rd till about 1/3 of the way, then the slope increases a tiny bit for 50m (if the tractor is empty I can zig zag and it goes up eheheh, that's how close it is), then the slope normalizes, but I cannot change back to 3rd, so I have to go all the way up at snail's pace... if there were an extra 3 ponies, or the extra 3 gears, I'd be very happy.