Not Too Happy with Engine Heater

[Avenger]

Last night was cold. 14*F. I let the new radiator hose heater run for about 4 hours before attempting to start the engine. I used my IR thermometer to see just how effective this new lower radiator hose heater is working. It read 110F on the heater, the hose was 90F. Freeze plug was 30F. Oil pan was 14F.

I turned the key on and the glow plug light went out immediately. I cycled the switch a few times, needing, wanting the glow plugs to fire a bit longer, knowing that the combustion chambers are still cold. I started the tractor and it did fire right up with a small clatter, maybe a single miss.

Here is why I am not too happy. I am approaching the next regen cycle. If the ECU believes the tractor is warm a few minutes after startup, because the coolant is warm, and attempts to regen, with the oil that is not warm, I'm in trouble! I use the proper oil, but it is cold and thick.

I am thinking of adding a magnetic oil pan heater. I'm not a fan of these, especially with a split sump. But something to warm that oil is better than nothing.

So I am disappointed that I cannot run the glow plugs longer, thanks to the ECU (if you know how I can run them longer, I'm all ears (turning the key backwards does not do it)) which results in potentially more cold starts, the exact opposite of what I am wanting, and the oil is not getting warmed at all.
Adding a magnetic oil pan heater will help the oil, but the ECU is another monster.

 

[jaydee325]

I agree there may be a problem with the ECU programing with respect to the glow plugs. Seems to be question for the dealer if operation is correct.

Having said that, it appears your engine heater is not doing its job. I've never been a fan of hose mounted heaters. The observed temperature readings indicate that the thermostat on the engine is not opening and, you are only heating the short area in communication of the hose heater due to no circulation.

 

[oosik]

Something is wrong with the way your heater is installed/operating. It should have the entire engine - all the coolant - nice and warm after being plugged in a couple hours. It's not designed to heat the engine oil but it will raise the temperature somewhat. Remember - it is a coolant heater.

 

[Underdog57]

Avenger, I think I have the same heater, I posted this in your other thread:

Enjoy your videos, I put one in about 2 years ago. Yesterday it was about 20* F here and I had my coolant heater on for about 5 hrs. Checked temp on hose just above the heater was approx 140* F the freeze plug on the block was about 110* and was about 100* going in & out of the Bottom of the radiator.
Purrs like a kitten when she starts!

Now I need to check temps after being plugged in for 1, 2, & 3 hours to see how long it takes to get up to temp.

 

[RalphVa]

Should work within 30 minutes. One for 4 hours, you're just wasting electric heat to the atmosphere via the radiator.

Had a lower rad heater in our 220D Benz at our house in Vermont @ -22 F. Ran for 30 minutes, got in, glowed it for the required amount of time. Started instantly.

Had to go about 5 miles down the road to heat up the fuel filter enough to stop the wax gelling on it. Engine stopped twice with it. Let sit about 30 seconds and restarted.

Ralph

 

[RSR]

Last night was cold. 14*F. I let the new radiator hose heater run for about 4 hours before attempting to start the engine. I used my IR thermometer to see just how effective this new lower radiator hose heater is working. It read 110F on the heater, the hose was 90F. Freeze plug was 30F. Oil pan was 14F.

I turned the key on and the glow plug light went out immediately. I cycled the switch a few times, needing, wanting the glow plugs to fire a bit longer, knowing that the combustion chambers are still cold. I started the tractor and it did fire right up with a small clatter, maybe a single miss.

Here is why I am not too happy. I am approaching the next regen cycle. If the ECU believes the tractor is warm a few minutes after startup, because the coolant is warm, and attempts to regen, with the oil that is not warm, I'm in trouble! I use the proper oil, but it is cold and thick.

I am thinking of adding a magnetic oil pan heater. I'm not a fan of these, especially with a split sump. But something to warm that oil is better than nothing.

So I am disappointed that I cannot run the glow plugs longer, thanks to the ECU (if you know how I can run them longer, I'm all ears (turning the key backwards does not do it)) which results in potentially more cold starts, the exact opposite of what I am wanting, and the oil is not getting warmed at all.
Adding a magnetic oil pan heater will help the oil, but the ECU is another monster.

Maybe the answer is to remove the radiator heater? "Cold" is a relative term. Here in Northern NY, 14 on a January day is considered warm. We've had precisely one day where it got above freezing (it hit 34 for 2 hours) in the last 5.5 weeks. The highest high in the 15 day forecast is 24 degrees.

When I bought my LS, I just assumed I needed a heater of some sort. Both dealers I talked with in this area talked me out of it. They both said they've never installed one (one dealer has been carrying LS since they came to the US) and have never had any problems. They said just cycle the glow plugs a couple of times if it's cold.

I keep my tractor in an insulated garage, but even so, temps in the low 20's in the garage are common when it's around or below 0 outside. I just cycle the glow plugs twice and it fires right up no problem. I idle at low RPM for 1-2 minutes, then bring it slowly up to 1500 RPM and leave it there until the engine warms up. Then bring it up to PTO speed and start blowing snow (my primary use during the winter).

Remove the heater, and the ECU won't mistake a cold engine for being warm?

My anecdotal evidence (and the confirmation by the dealers) is there's really no need for an external heater.

 

[Cycledude]

So far the block heater on my LS XR4155 seems to work great and I love the automatic glow plug system.
Last time I used it was to blow snow on February 6th, overnight it had dropped to -15 below zero, plugged it in for 1.5 hours before attempting to start, the glow plugs did not activate and the tractor started like it had been running for an hour already.

 

[nybirdman]

Also in Northern NY,I have and used a block heater/battery tender;sure does warm up quicker.Just had a block heater installed in a used Kubota and it only cost $100.I just think it is a lot easier on the tractor.

 

[Rustyiron]

Last night was cold. 14*F. I let the new radiator hose heater run for about 4 hours before attempting to start the engine. I used my IR thermometer to see just how effective this new lower radiator hose heater is working. It read 110F on the heater, the hose was 90F. Freeze plug was 30F. Oil pan was 14F.

I turned the key on and the glow plug light went out immediately. I cycled the switch a few times, needing, wanting the glow plugs to fire a bit longer, knowing that the combustion chambers are still cold. I started the tractor and it did fire right up with a small clatter, maybe a single miss.

Here is why I am not too happy. I am approaching the next regen cycle. If the ECU believes the tractor is warm a few minutes after startup, because the coolant is warm, and attempts to regen, with the oil that is not warm, I'm in trouble! I use the proper oil, but it is cold and thick.

I am thinking of adding a magnetic oil pan heater. I'm not a fan of these, especially with a split sump. But something to warm that oil is better than nothing.

So I am disappointed that I cannot run the glow plugs longer, thanks to the ECU (if you know how I can run them longer, I'm all ears (turning the key backwards does not do it)) which results in potentially more cold starts, the exact opposite of what I am wanting, and the oil is not getting warmed at all.
Adding a magnetic oil pan heater will help the oil, but the ECU is another monster.

I'm confused, so the heater gets things warm enough to short or no cycle your glow plugs (or whatever pre heat system) and it fired right away. Why would you want to run the glow plugs longer in relation to your cold oil concern. Neither device is intended to heat your oil. Cold oil passing through a warm block will, and will marginally cool the block but that's quickly replaced by combustion heat.

 

[PCABE5]

I don't know of a way to run the glow plugs longer as the ECU controls them based on temperature which I believe is ambient temperature.

What temperature is your radiator? Ambient temperature sensor is on top of the radiator. Could your heater be installed incorrectly? Not sure if those are directional or not. Your frost plug should be hotter than 30°F.

No sure that I have seen an XR regenerate at startup. If your worried about it next time you are using the tractor run a manual regeneration then you don't have to worry about it till summer.

 

[LouNY]

I have a block heater in my Branson and I see the smart intake manifold heater not cycle on long enough for the cold combustion chamber and cold air not allow for a smooth start.
What I do is disconnect the sensor that goes to the timer module for the intake manifold heater and just give the engine 15-20seconds of intake heat before I crank it over and she will start and run fine. I have had it start and die with no manifold heat at colder then -20F. It started but the cold air snuffed out the engine and then I had to get the boost pack to have enough battery to start again.
My tractor has a manifold grid heater which performs the same function as your glow plugs. I have 2 temperature sensors one for the temperature gauge and i for the manifold heater controller.
By disconnecting the one for the controller the manifold heater stays on for a long time, I start with it still heating

 

[Avenger]

I'm confused, so the heater gets things warm enough to short or no cycle your glow plugs (or whatever pre heat system) and it fired right away. Why would you want to run the glow plugs longer in relation to your cold oil concern. Neither device is intended to heat your oil. Cold oil passing through a warm block will, and will marginally cool the block but that's quickly replaced by combustion heat.

There is three issues I have with starting this tractor in the cold:

The first is cold oil, not lubricating the engine. I know the coolant heater wont warm the oil, but I was hoping that given enough time, the block would be warmer and the heat would radiate down to the sump and warm it a little. Something is better than nothing. This is the least of my concerns as I do have the proper oil for cold weather in the engine.

The second, separate, concern is regeneration at startup. The ECU's are programed to read the coolant temps before attempting a regeneration cycle, to make sure the engine is at proper operating temps before going even hotter. There has been issues (that have hopefully been fixed with updates to the ECU) where the tractor was not quite at operating temps and then attempts to regen, blowing up the turbos because the oil is not warm enough. If these tractors had oil temp sending sensors and worked off that instead of coolant temp sensors, this would not be a concern at all. My issue with the hose heater is that the ECU reads the coolant temps as warm, attempts a regeneration cycle, and blows the turbo while I'm inside the house drinking my coffee waiting for the tractor to warm up.

The third issue is the glow plugs. I'm pretty sure the sensor reads coolant temp to determine the engine temperature. If the sensor is on top of the radiator and reads ambient air temperature, then it is getting a false reading from the radiator. The ECU believes the engine is at some degree warmer than it really is because the heater. But the air inside the combustion chamber is still very cold. Maybe not as cold as the ambient air temperature, but still cold enough to cause a cold start. Those glow plugs simply do not fire long enough to warm the combustion chambers. The tractor will still start, but with a few knocks and misses. Not horrible, as they smooth out quickly enough, but I'd rather have the glow plugs do their job.

No sure that I have seen an XR regenerate at startup. If your worried about it next time you are using the tractor run a manual regeneration then you don't have to worry about it till summer.

As far as forcing a regen, I never thought of that! I'll definitely do that and that should alleviate one of these issues.

I did order a magnetic block heater too. I'll plug it in and stick it on the oil sump. That should warm (one side) of the oil and make me feel a bit better about these cold starts.

I think I was hoping that this hose heater would live up to the hype, that it would actually warm the engine and prevent cold starts. There was nothing wrong with the way it was, even in the cold. The glow plugs fired long enough to start the engine, but I did have one cold start and that was my fault. I'm just thinking of the wear and tear on this engine, and feel the need to prevent it.

I did shoot a quick video showing the temps after the engine heater ran for about 5 hours last night. I took reading all around and then attempted to start the engine. I did start, but there was that knocking sound for a bit. I tested the timer thinking Maybe it wasnt translating enough power, but that also seemed fine. The instructions didnt say anything about direction for the block heater, and I did follow them to the letter. I just dont think its efficient enough.

Here is that test last night: Is the Lower Coolant Hose Heater Working? - YouTube

 

[PCABE5]

As far as forcing a regen, I never thought of that! I'll definitely do that and that should alleviate one of these issues.

I did order a magnetic block heater too. I'll plug it in and stick it on the oil sump. That should warm (one side) of the oil and make me feel a bit better about these cold starts.

I think I was hoping that this hose heater would live up to the hype, that it would actually warm the engine and prevent cold starts. There was nothing wrong with the way it was, even in the cold. The glow plugs fired long enough to start the engine, but I did have one cold start and that was my fault. I'm just thinking of the wear and tear on this engine, and feel the need to prevent it.

I did shoot a quick video showing the temps after the engine heater ran for about 5 hours last night. I took reading all around and then attempted to start the engine. I did start, but there was that knocking sound for a bit. I tested the timer thinking Maybe it wasnt translating enough power, but that also seemed fine. The instructions didnt say anything about direction for the block heater, and I did follow them to the letter. I just dont think its efficient enough.

Here is that test last night: Is the Lower Coolant Hose Heater Working? - YouTube

I watched your video and it's just what I'm seeing, but it appears to be putting more heat into the radiator than the block based on your IR readings.

Your startup didn't seem alarming. Hope you get it to where your comfortable.

 

[Avenger]

I agree. But I think its because the metal is thinner in the radiator? There is no direction on the heater. Heat rises, causing the coolant to flow. That heater is a simple coil. And your right, the start wasn't horrible, but there is no knocking with just using the glow plugs. I left it unplugged today, when I get home, I'll attempt to start it using only the glow plugs as a comparison.

 

[Cycledude]

I think you are way to worried about cold oil causing extreme wear issues. Just start it up and let it idle for a few minutes like it recommends in the owners manual. I do personally know a few folks that just start their vehicles in cold weather and put it to hard work immediately, I don’t recommend that but they have been doing that kind of stuff for years and it doesn’t seem to have much effect on their equipment.

 

[Texasmark]

I agree there may be a problem with the ECU programing with respect to the glow plugs. Seems to be question for the dealer if operation is correct.

Having said that, it appears your engine heater is not doing its job. I've never been a fan of hose mounted heaters. The observed temperature readings indicate that the thermostat on the engine is not opening and, you are only heating the short area in communication of the hose heater due to no circulation.

My 225S works the same way in either ON position or holding CCW from OFF. I did call dealer and he said about 15 seconds max. I do as Jaydee did and just operate the heater several times on current cold mornings and it fired right up. I don't like the idea.....prefer the ambient temp time controlled procedure like on the Branson. Designers had a reason surely.

 

[Rustyiron]

There is three issues I have with starting this tractor in the cold:

The first is cold oil, not lubricating the engine. I know the coolant heater wont warm the oil, but I was hoping that given enough time, the block would be warmer and the heat would radiate down to the sump and warm it a little. Something is better than nothing. This is the least of my concerns as I do have the proper oil for cold weather in the engine.

The second, separate, concern is regeneration at startup. The ECU's are programed to read the coolant temps before attempting a regeneration cycle, to make sure the engine is at proper operating temps before going even hotter. There has been issues (that have hopefully been fixed with updates to the ECU) where the tractor was not quite at operating temps and then attempts to regen, blowing up the turbos because the oil is not warm enough. If these tractors had oil temp sending sensors and worked off that instead of coolant temp sensors, this would not be a concern at all. My issue with the hose heater is that the ECU reads the coolant temps as warm, attempts a regeneration cycle, and blows the turbo while I'm inside the house drinking my coffee waiting for the tractor to warm up.

The third issue is the glow plugs. I'm pretty sure the sensor reads coolant temp to determine the engine temperature. If the sensor is on top of the radiator and reads ambient air temperature, then it is getting a false reading from the radiator. The ECU believes the engine is at some degree warmer than it really is because the heater. But the air inside the combustion chamber is still very cold. Maybe not as cold as the ambient air temperature, but still cold enough to cause a cold start. Those glow plugs simply do not fire long enough to warm the combustion chambers. The tractor will still start, but with a few knocks and misses. Not horrible, as they smooth out quickly enough, but I'd rather have the glow plugs do their

Thank you, and I now understand your concerns. I also am one that believes in a thorough warm up before working an engine hard or high rpm's. Perhaps Lou's approach will trick the computer into waiting.
I'm not familiar with these emission systems, my tractor is just before this nonsense.

 

[spruce Deere]

The 'split' sump on these tractors is a wonderment too me....To heat this double camel hump sump, one needs heat both sides.

There was a oil pan heater product that was more of a 'magnetic pad' you would apply to the pan... Two of them and warm the engine from the bottom up.

Still not sure why the radiator hose engine heater is not making everything much warmer.... The frost plug temp should be closer to 80/90* degrees, not 30* degrees

A frost plug type block heater might be the silver bullet.

 

[Cat385B]

I watched your video on my phone, so I wasn’t able to tell:
Is the coolant hose heater installed in an uphill portion of the hose close to the engine, or close to the radiator?

 

[Egon]

Something is wrong with the way your heater is installed/operating. It should have the entire engine - all the coolant - nice and warm after being plugged in a couple hours. It's not designed to heat the engine oil but it will raise the temperature somewhat. Remember - it is a coolant heater.

I will agree. The orientation of the heater is important for the internal thermostat to work properly!

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