ford 1700 hydraulic problems

[mellowrose]

looked at all of the threads i could find on the hydraulics, very informative. another lift problem i am afraid. usually the lifts on all my tractors have blocked screens. not this time. so after a lot of reading i am looking into the lift arm/cylinder area. my question is this, the cylinder is stuck on the cylinder head. my book says to take the cylinder head off and you can get to the cylinder, piston,etc.with the cylinder attached to the head it wont go past the four wheel gear box. it is stuck also. i think i am missing something. any ideas.

 

[JC-jetro]

i really can't follow the following line;
"with the cylinder attached to the head it wont go past the four wheel gear box. can you elaborate?

what do you mean ' Cylinder stuck on cylinder head"? do you mean piston stuck in the cylinder wall?

1- can't see how piston can be stuck to cylinder head. geometry and design does not support it.
2- cylinder head can be very easily take out without any oil loss for inspection.
3- with the cylinder head removed and no implement on the 3 point you can raise the 3 point arm, causing the rock shat to rotate and push the piston forward for inspection.

I still don't know what the problem statement is?can you raise ans lower your 3 point?

 

[mellowrose]

i really can't follow the following line;
"with the cylinder attached to the head it wont go past the four wheel gear box. can you elaborate?

what do you mean ' Cylinder stuck on cylinder head"? do you mean piston stuck in the cylinder wall?

1- can't see how piston can be stuck to cylinder head. geometry and design does not support it.
2- cylinder head can be very easily take out without any oil loss for inspection.
3- with the cylinder head removed and no implement on the 3 point you can raise the 3 point arm, causing the rock shat to rotate and push the piston forward for inspection.

I still don't know what the problem statement is?can you raise ans lower your 3 point?

ok so i have taken out the cylinder head bolts and the cylinder head is loose from the lift arm housing. coming straight out the head wont go past the 4 wheel shifter box. it will almost go past but not quite. the cylinder is attached to the head causing no clearance for up and down or side to side movement. at least i think it is the cylinder. i am going to go out and move the arms up and see what happens, but i thought that would just move the piston and not the cylinder. my book says to take the head off and the cylinder , piston, seals and and stuff is readily available. i dont think the cylinder is suppose to be stuck to the head. also going to try and get the 4 wheel drive shifter plate to break loose from the transmission housing so i can move it just enough to get clearance enough to pull the head straight forward and remove it to see what is going on. i have read a lot of your posts and know you are very familiar with the hydraulics . i hope i have made it clear enough.

 

[JC-jetro]

cylinder head ist not fixed to the cylinder . There is a rubber o-ring that connect the head to the cyllinder. Get a rubber mallet or dead-blow hammer with rubber head and wack it good with purpose on the side of the cylinder and head and the head will come off. Then you have plenty of room. I was able to get my shifter move up and had no interference with head/cylinder combo.

Look t attached pics for clarification,

 

[JC-jetro]

You can also remove the shifter cover. It is not needed or necessary to free up the cylinder head at all.

 

[mellowrose]

i have gotten the 4 wheel shifter off and the cylinder head and cylinder came right out . the piston dropped down , but was able to get it out. the piston seal has disintegrated into small pieces. the cylinder was cocked enough that it was stuck to the head, but got it off. now i am waiting for parts to come in. that would be 2 o rings and the piston seal. will clean up parts and be ready when they get here. this is on my 1700, but ordered 2 sets so i can do my 1900 also. any assembly instructions would be very helpful. thanks a lot for the first reply.

 

[JC-jetro]

most likely you can salvage the o-ring. I did mine 10 years ago, bought the o-ring and just kept it for spare. Wished I have gotten extra piston seal for spare since it was just $8. it is pretty easy how it goes together. The installation of the seal is a one time deal and if you put it in reverse once t seats in the piston groove and it is a done deal. It is a double lipped nylon seal. The lips should face the piston head and not the other way. it will be a tight fit. I have heard people put the seal in hit water to soften it up. I personally did not like that idea. I just got a plastic bag, oiled up the seal and left it on my car hood for 45 minutes under the sign and that soften it enough to install. look at the pics below.

 

[mellowrose]

got parts in and put them in. the two o rings and the piston seal. went back together easy. no 3 point lift. have flow to the back. nothing on pressure gauge. getting thru the aluminum block because loader works. not getting thru the control valve. think maybe it is clogged up with pieces of the old seal. i am in unknown territory here now. looked at the control valve assy and it looks ok i guess. just nothing getting through. the control valve looks expensive also. don't know what to do next.

 

[JC-jetro]

got parts in and put them in. the two o rings and the piston seal. went back together easy. no 3 point lift. have flow to the back. nothing on pressure gauge. getting thru the aluminum block because loader works. not getting thru the control valve. think maybe it is clogged up with pieces of the old seal. i am in unknown territory here now. looked at the control valve assy and it looks ok i guess. just nothing getting through. the control valve looks expensive also. don't know what to do next.

Ok, so far at-least you have done some positive work , piston seal needed replacement and you have done it. Loader works and that's good so you have a working hyd pump. I don't believe pieces of seal would clog up the spool as busted up pieces ended up being washed off in the diffy reservoir and inlet screen is pretty good and don't figure much can pass thru it. I am thinking something might be wrong with the spool valve but you don't want to dork with it just yet. I would do the following;

1- Remove the plug on the cylinder head where you put the hyd gauge. put a bucket under it and start the tractor. let's see if you have flow. I hope you can flush something out.
2- if you have any flow then put the plug back and go to the other side of the piston head and there is another plug, that is on the left side of operator seat as you face forward sitting on the tractor. see if you can get a flow coming out of there. Obviously you need to put a bucket under to avoid a mess.
3- I would take the hyd aluminum block and the the relief valve off, inspect for anomaly and then use compressed air to check the passages. I would squirt some air in to holes for the spool valve while moving the lift handle/arm up and down hoping to pass some junk that may be there. I then put it all there and hope for the best.

last thing would be the spool but let's not go there just yet.

 

[mellowrose]

thanks for checking on me. you are a great help. i was ready to give up and take it to shop. i have done some of what you are talking about, but will go and recheck in the order you suggest. should have that done around mid morning.

 

[JC-jetro]

thanks for checking on me. you are a great help. i was ready to give up and take it to shop. i have done some of what you are talking about, but will go and recheck in the order you suggest. should have that done around mid morning.

on the plug on the left you have a spring and a ball check. Do make sure the take out and record the order so you can put it back just how you found them. good luck.

 

[mellowrose]

just wrote a long reply and it went to never never land. lets see if i can do it again, short version. did every thing you said, no lift. however there is some interesting points. when i took the pressure gage off there was some pressure and fluid came out. so its getting thru somewhere with air like there is an air leak. or maybe accumulated air in the system. also when i shot air into the bottom left hole looking from right wheel, seemed like it would pressurize the rear end then come back out when it quit.

 

[mellowrose]

seems like there should be a hydraulic flow diagram somewhere

 

[JC-jetro]

seems like there should be a hydraulic flow diagram somewhere

did you remove the guts out o teh pressure relief valve next to the hyd block?

 

[JC-jetro]

just wrote a long reply and it went to never never land. lets see if i can do it again, short version. did every thing you said, no lift. however there is some interesting points. when i took the pressure gage off there was some pressure and fluid came out. so its getting thru somewhere with air like there is an air leak. or maybe accumulated air in the system. also when i shot air into the bottom left hole looking from right wheel, seemed like it would pressurize the rear end then come back out when it quit.

also when i shot air into the bottom left hole looking from right wheel,

Where are you exactly talking about. Are you taking about the thru where the gauge is? if so that would basically pressurize the piston forcing it to lift up some. No air is compressible bit no hyd fluid. I had drawn the flow duagram many years ago on this site. let me see if I can dig it out.

 

[mellowrose]

DID NOT REMOVE THE GUTS TO THE PRESSURE RELIEF sorry thats in caps it was on. the plate that the aluminum block and pressure reliefe biggyback bolt to. on the other side of the plate is the control valve line up with one of the three holes. the left hole

 

[JC-jetro]

DID NOT REMOVE THE GUTS TO THE PRESSURE RELIEF sorry thats in caps it was on. the plate that the aluminum block and pressure reliefe biggyback bolt to. on the other side of the plate is the control valve line up with one of the three holes. the left hole

Ok. I have several pics of the pressure relive valve guts. I you remove the cap, and take out the spring and conical poppet valve Then if you put the cap back in and start the tractor then the pump will have flow but not much pressure. in that case if the spool is working ok and you have the lift lever all the way up then you should have good flow from where you installed the pressure gauge, again with not much pressure, we want to establish flow or lack there of. Attached I have a pdf of the spool valve, you see there is o-rings and seal, any # of them could be faulty. This would not be easy repair. I have never disassembled as I had never a need. again , if you are disciplined and disassemble, taking many pics slowly then should be able to replace o-ring and put things back together. doubt if you can find new one and if yu buy salvage at high $$$ doubt if they are any better than what you already have.

 

[mellowrose]

have taken the conical seat out and started tractor. nothing on gage. stopped tractor remove gage. started tractor. nothing coming out.

 

[mellowrose]

also the loader quit working. put conical seat back in. loader works again . no lift. seems to me there is nothing but feed throughs and passageways which have all been blown out, until you get to the control valve and relief valve assy in the rear end. there is nothing else to check. guess i will look into the control and relief valve assy tomorrow. am i missing anything.

 

[JC-jetro]

also the loader quit working. put conical seat back in. loader works again . no lift. seems to me there is nothing but feed throughs and passageways which have all been blown out, until you get to the control valve and relief valve assy in the rear end. there is nothing else to check. guess i will look into the control and relief valve assy tomorrow. am i missing anything.

Before you mess with the spool valve check the following. Look at the pic below.



The hole on the right side with the o-ring is your supply to lift piston. The hole in the middle is the rate of return drop, next to to it o the lift is the supply to top of piston. The very last one on the left opens up in diffy and that is the over pressure release to keep the seal from being damaged. Now you see the head is symmetrical and has two identical ports . If by mistake you installed the head 180 out then the hole does not match the casting on lift cover hence no pressure and flow to the 3 point.

Now look at the pic below. That hole should line up with the hole you see on the right of lift cover as you seat on operator seat. That is where oil from the lift cover casting goes to lift piston head.



do check it before you mess with the lift spool. That is not an easy work and I have never ad a need to dismantle it yet. you have arms, pivot point that moves a plate in an out and then it moves hyd valve in and out along with spool. if you have caliper, make measurement of how many turns the nut are tighten to put every thing back how you got them. Take bunch of pictures so y can put it back together. this might be a good learning opportunity.


Ps. obviously loader would have nt worked and like I said. we were looking at flow and wth the spring out pump can make any appreciable pressure.