Corona Virus #6

[3 Horse Ranch]

Quote Originally Posted by Diggin It View Post
"Give me Liberty or give me Death."

"This nation was founded on freedom."

I was and I still remember the oath that I took upon my enlistment,

TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

we were founded by men who held Freedom above death,

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the United States Congress from enacting legislation that would abridge the right of the people to assemble peaceably. The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution makes this prohibition applicable to state governments.

While these present day impediments to the right to assemble may be based on sound arguments of public safety they are without a doubt unconstitutional.

I tend to agree with you. The Bill of Rights are not rights granted by the Constitution, but rather "inalienable" rights enumerated by the Constitution. Here in Washington State (and others) the Constitution has been set aside in the interest of "the greater good." The First Amendment has been basically erased from our lives. The rights in the first ten Amendments are the "inalienable rights" that are granted by our creator and supposedly secured by government. We have the right to peaceably assemble, now denied. We have the right to free exercise of religion, now denied. If they can be given up so freely by the mere threat of a virus, how much more easily will they be given up by the mere threat of a gun.
The facts are, this virus, while more deadly than the flu is less of a threat to our way of life than our government's reaction to it.

 

[two_bit_score]

There is a problem with that...
Some (most) officials overstep their bounds and push agendas that have nothing to do with the virus or safety concerns.
I believe it was Rahm Emmanuel who said "Never let a good crisis go to waste"

Seems likely to me that the next generation will be laughing at our reaction to the Corona Virus just like we laugh at the reaction to Y2K.


TBS

 

[Molalla1]

I tend to agree with you. The Bill of Rights are not rights granted by the Constitution, but rather "inalienable" rights enumerated by the Constitution. Here in Washington State (and others) the Constitution has been set aside in the interest of "the greater good." The First Amendment has been basically erased from our lives. The rights in the first ten Amendments are the "inalienable rights" that are granted by our creator and supposedly secured by government. We have the right to peaceably assemble, now denied. We have the right to free exercise of religion, now denied. If they can be given up so freely by the mere threat of a virus, how much more easily will they be given up by the mere threat of a gun.
The facts are, this virus, while more deadly than the flu is less of a threat to our way of life than our government's reaction to it.

Trump is trying to loosing this up . . .

 

[dstig1]

A link with lots of information on HEPA filters,
https://www.globalspec.com/learnmore...s_ulpa_filters

That link actually explains it quite well, but it sounds like not everyone understands what it says. 0.3 microns is the test particle size as that is typically the "most penetrating particle size". Due to the various mechanism of filtration which are explained above in that link, particles that are both larger and smaller than 0.3 micron are actually filtered out MORE EASILY than those near 0.3 This is pretty common in all types of filters, and is why they are tested at 0.3 Now obviously you get to a point where things are too small as air passes through filters, of course, but droplets floating around in the air will generally be plenty big enough to filter out.

 

[3 Horse Ranch]

From what I have read, HEPA filter are N100. There may be different kinds, and if so, they may be more effective. If you are aware, please point me to an article discussing the particles sizes that are filtered by airplane HEPA filters. Everything I have found says they are N100.

If they are N100, that means they filter 99.97% of particles greater than 0.3 microns. The Coronavirus is significantly smaller than that. They won't work to filter it out of the air.

It's not fear, it's science. If you'd like, I'd be happy to point you to the peer-reviewed scientific papers that discuss these issues.

To my knowledge the corona virus is not a lone free floating virus, If it were then there is absolutely nothing that will prevent everybody from being exposed to it eventually as more and more viruses free float through the air as more and more people are exposed and become carriers. When it is in the air it is encapsulated in a minute droplet of water expelled by the carrier. Filtering out the down to the size of the virus is a moot point. Filtering down to the size of a sneezed out water droplet is the valid point.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Grandparents willing to sacrifice their lives for the economy? Wha.....?

COVID-19: Texas official suggests elderly willing to die for economy

OK. Let's start in Texas first...

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Give me Liberty or give me Death.

This nation was founded on freedom.

OK. You have a point. But don't be p*ssed off when "your" exercising of "your" liberty kills you...

 

[ovrszd]

OK. You have a point. But don't be p*ssed off when "your" exercising of "your" liberty kills you...

At least you didn't "wish" him dead.

 

[cqaigy2]

See the earlier discussion/explanation about filters in general and efficacy of them. HEPA filter are N100 filters. They still only filter particles greater that 0.3 microns in size, they just do it more effectively.

The SARS-CoV-2 virus and the droplets that it is encapsulated in from breathing/speaking/coughing are much smaller than 0.3 microns.

So, you can bet if someone is sick on an airplane, those droplets are floating around free for all to breathe in. HEPA filters won't do much at all to take them out of the air.

The way i understand it, from someone else's post on this, is that you can imagine it as though you were shooting an arrow into the woods. The gap between the trees is larger than the diameter of the arrow, however, it's very unlikely, that you would be able to shoot an arrow through the woods without hitting a tree. And it would take more than one "arrow" to cause you harm.

 

[RSR]

To my knowledge the corona virus is not a lone free floating virus, If it were then there is absolutely nothing that will prevent everybody from being exposed to it eventually as more and more viruses free float through the air as more and more people are exposed and become carriers. When it is in the air it is encapsulated in a minute droplet of water expelled by the carrier. Filtering out the down to the size of the virus is a moot point. Filtering down to the size of a sneezed out water droplet is the valid point.

You are correct in that it is encapsulated in water/saliva/mucus. However, shortly after leaving the mouth, and depending on the relative humidity, those droplets can quickly evaporate down to a much smaller size. Larger droplets are not of concern as they quickly fall to the floor.

Smaller droplets that have evaporated some can stay suspended in the air for hours. However, recent studies have shown the virus is only viable in those droplets for time frames of 30 minutes - 3 hours. However, those droplets can be extremely small (on the order of nanometers) with the virus inside. Those are what cause the risk of being inhaled and infecting you, and what are not stopped by masks.

Of course, the other consideration is that the chance of being infected is also a function of the concentration of particles. While particles will float around in a building for a long time, the concentration will be extremely low, so the infection risk is extremely low. This is why there is a 6 foot separation distance, recommendation. Beyond that, the concentration should be sufficiently low to not pose a significant risk. Now, if you are trapped in a confined space (i.e. an airplane) with someone that is sick, and particles that are too small to be caught in an N100/HEPA filter, your risk goes up precipitously.

 

[IslandTractor]

See the earlier discussion/explanation about filters in general and efficacy of them. HEPA filter are N100 filters. They still only filter particles greater that 0.3 microns in size, they just do it more effectively.

The SARS-CoV-2 virus and the droplets that it is encapsulated in from breathing/speaking/coughing are much smaller than 0.3 microns.

So, you can bet if someone is sick on an airplane, those droplets are floating around free for all to breathe in. HEPA filters won't do much at all to take them out of the air.

HEPA filtration stops all known viruses even those spread by droplet nuclei such as measles and varicella. Coronavirus is spread by droplet (bigger than droplet nuclei) so HEPA filtration will remove coronavirus from airline cabin air.

In an airline cabin there will be droplet spread from your fellow passengers nearby coughing or talking but any air that has been recirculated (from the vents) will be virus free.

I was a hospital epidemiologist at a Harvard teaching hospital for over ten years and this sort of thing was discussed frequently. Coronavirus requires less stringent air control than measles, Tb, or chickenpox.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

At least you didn't "wish" him dead.

:thumbsup:

 

[cqaigy2]

A buddy of mine at work, has a pocket constitution. We use it to quiz each other, on the amendments. It's a wonder i passed that class on Civics in junior hi school, or maybe i was smarter then.

 

[RSR]

The way i understand it, from someone else's post on this, is that you can imagine it as though you were shooting an arrow into the woods. The gap between the trees is larger than the diameter of the arrow, however, it's very unlikely, that you would be able to shoot an arrow through the woods without hitting a tree. And it would take more than one "arrow" to cause you harm.

Kind of. This is a good article that describes how they work:

N95 Respirators and Surgical Masks | | Blogs | CDC

The point is, at smaller sizes, a relatively large percentage of droplets are going to get through. Will it be enough to infect you? Maybe it will only be an arrow in the foot, maybe it will be five in the chest. A virologist could answer that question better than I. Certainly, the more droplets getting through, the higher the risk.

That's why I wouldn't worry about walking through a grocery store as long as I had a 6 foot separation distance (low concentration). It's also why I would not fly at all right now. If someone is infected, there is a possibility of having a much higher concentration.

 

[RSR]

HEPA filtration stops all known viruses even those spread by droplet nuclei such as measles and varicella. Coronavirus is spread by droplet (bigger than droplet nuclei) so HEPA filtration will remove coronavirus from airline cabin air.

In an airline cabin there will be droplet spread from your fellow passengers nearby coughing or talking but any air that has been recirculated (from the vents) will be virus free.

I was a hospital epidemiologist at a Harvard teaching hospital for over ten years and this sort of thing was discussed frequently. Coronavirus requires less stringent air control than measles, Tb, or chickenpox.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Recent academic studies have measured the SARS-CoV-2 virus to be 0.06 - 0.17 microns. Encapsulated in saliva, it is still significantly smaller than 0.3 microns, as the saliva will evaporate in dryer air. A HEPA filter will not filter any smaller particles than an N95 mask. It will just filter the larger ones more efficiently.

 

[RSR]

HEPA filtration stops all known viruses even those spread by droplet nuclei such as measles and varicella. Coronavirus is spread by droplet (bigger than droplet nuclei) so HEPA filtration will remove coronavirus from airline cabin air.

In an airline cabin there will be droplet spread from your fellow passengers nearby coughing or talking but any air that has been recirculated (from the vents) will be virus free.

I was a hospital epidemiologist at a Harvard teaching hospital for over ten years and this sort of thing was discussed frequently. Coronavirus requires less stringent air control than measles, Tb, or chickenpox.

Island - after closely reading the article posted by Lou, I'll amend my assertion that you are wrong, and issue an apology. It looks like opposed to N95 masks, the HEPA filters, while not able to remove everything from the air, are "practically" able to filter droplet diameters that are likely to cause an issue.

So, I concur that you are correct (and please consider this a blanket amendment of my earlier statement about airplanes). I'd still think twice about flying due to the risk of someone close by exposing you before the air is filtered, but once filtered, the amount of droplets that are likely to get through appears minimal.

I consider it a good day when I learn something new. Thanks LouNY for posting the link on HEPA filters.

 

[YanmarFever]

New York coronavirus cases surge 38% overnight to 20,875

Cuomo estimates that up to 80% of the states more than 19.4 million residents will get the coronavirus.
Roughly 13% of all cases have been hospitalized, 621 of the patients have ended up in the ICU and 157 people have died, he said.
New York has run 78,289 COVID-19 tests and is testing more than 16,000 people a day now, he said.

New York coronavirus cases surge 38% overnight to 2,875

 

[Diggin It]

OK. You have a point. But don't be p*ssed off when "your" exercising of "your" liberty kills you...

'You're' goes in one of those spots. I'll let you figure out which.

 

[the old grind]

It seems some here are trying to convince us all that nothing is safe, no mask, no protocol, not the word of one with 10 years experience in epidemiology vs a handful of years on a tractor forum. ("Oh, me .. me .. me .." :wave

It also looks like the 'latest chart/graph' again predicts 100% contagion by 2021 following the curve and thus is as good as proven, right?.

Now then, if making this about rights and the government is another way to talk the virus to death before it beats the zombies to us, I'll play along.

btw, I'm not dead yet or infected, you?

 

[3 Horse Ranch]

I can see some here are trying to convince us all that nothing is safe, no mask, no protocol, not the word of one with 10 years experience in epidemiology vs a handful of years on a tractor forum. ("Oh, me .. me .. me" .. waving hand frantically. )

It also looks like the 'latest chart/graph' again predicts 100% contagion by 2021.

I'm not dead yet, you?

Well, if it's going to be 100% by next year, why don't we just go back to things as normal and accept the illness and deaths as inevitable, instead of crippling ourselves and the resources we have to continue after this thing has passed.