Possible weak loader or just too much weight?

[bazman82]

So I think I may have a minor issue with my loader/hydraulics or maybe I am just asking too much of my loader. I feel for the size of my tractor that the loader is a bit on the weaker side. I have a 5' bucket and itll lift just fine when picking up stone or dirt etc etc. Heaping buckets at that.

The part I feel that is lacking is: when I start to curl the bucket back with my bale spear (attaches to the bucket) and spear a round bale (4x4 600-700lbs) is that it has a hard time. Now, just to explain this a bit better, it will curl back if the spear is all the way in the bale but, if I can see a foot or so of the spear then there is not enough power there to curl the bucket back all the way to get it to slide down the spear. The bales we make are really tight so I don't always get it perfectly speared. Is this a case of just too much weight at the end of the spear for the bucket to curl or is there another issue at hand? It is my SAME mercury 75 tractor.

 

[jeff9366]

I may have a minor issue with my loader/hydraulics or maybe I am just asking too much of my loader.

Researching all the Turkish "SAME 75" listings on TractorData.com I speculate your SAME Mercury 75 has around 75 horsepower, 5,000 pounds bare tractor weight and hydraulic pump flow of 8.7 GPM, WHEN NEW.
Production was 1981 - 1985. Your tractor is 35 to 40 years old.

No SAME tractor data I viewed showed SAME factory Loaders. Is your Loader from the factory or aftermarket? If aftermarket, what brand and model?

View attachment 596631

Hydraulic pump flow is minimal by today's standards, but may have been typical for 1981 - 1985 Turkish tractors without Loaders. Most of the flow goes to the power steering. Have the steering centered when lifting bales.

I trust you have checked hydraulic fluid level and condition of hydraulic fluid filter.

Do you have the Owner's/Opterator's Manual?

Any idea how many prior owners this tractor had?



Your SAME tractor is a rarity in the USA. Next time you inquire, include more background data if you have it.

 

[bazman82]

The loader is aftermarket. It is a KMW K600. Hydraulic level is where it needs to be. Not many leaks on the tractor itself. I changed out the hydraulic filter when I got the tractor roughly 3 years ago and only put on about 300 hours on it. I do have the owners manual and a repair manual. Not sure how many prior owners, I bought it at an auction. It did, however, have a dealer sticker on it and when I called them, they said they used to sell SAME tractors back in the early 80's so they did still have some left over parts for it. I have never paid much attention to the steering when lifting bales but I can say that the steering has its own pump and reservoir that I do top off periodically. I am not sure if this was put in afterwards because if I recall correctly, it is not in any of the manuals.

 

[Tx Jim]

bazman82
Are you aware the further forward from bucket attachment/pivot pin the load is located will exponentially increase the difficulty to raise or curl the load?

 

[jeff9366]

KMW LOADERS: KMW Loaders - Products

Call KMW Customer Service and pose your question direct to the supplier.

Ask KMW about the "new" lift capacity of their model K600.

 

[oldnslo]

Like TXJim says: Sounds like typical operating condition to me. Large load extended out in front of the curl cylinders limiting ability to curl.

Take an empty 5 gallon bucket and hold it out at arms length and curl it up. Now fill the bucket and try it again. Same principal of force required.

 

[bazman82]

bazman82
Are you aware the further forward from bucket attachment/pivot pin the load is located will exponentially increase the difficulty to raise or curl the load?

I am aware. That why i was also included the part about maybe it is just too much weight in the front. It'll raise no problem with the bale that far forward but just wont curl.It'll also curl just fine when the bale is all the way on the spear. I just feel there should be more power there but maybe this is all the loader is capable of or maybe I am just used to stronger loaders.

 

[Texasmark]

As others have advised it's a matter of "foot-pounds". OEMs specify their products with a given distance from some reference point. Assuming you have a loader spec'd at some pressure and at some measured distance from some part of the loader say it's 2000# capacity. If you put that load at that point, it should lift before the pressure bypass safety valve opens and stops the lift.

If you move the load 2' out from that reference point, then you doubled the feet part of the equation. Since the limit is as stated, that means that you can only lift 1000#.

Other thing is power vs losses. On old equipment, like my '65 Ford 3000, I can't lift much at idle....it takes awhile. If I increase the rpms, the faster the engine turns the more pressure is developed by the pump and the faster the load raises.

 

[bazman82]

Well, I may just be asking too much of the loader. I am going to be spending a good chunk of money to get a ssqa, grapple (70") and all the things to work the grapple and wanted to comfort myself by picking the brains of others.

 

[Zebrafive]

As others have advised it's a matter of "foot-pounds". OEMs specify their products with a given distance from some reference point. Assuming you have a loader spec'd at some pressure and at some measured distance from some part of the loader say it's 2000# capacity. If you put that load at that point, it should lift before the pressure bypass safety valve opens and stops the lift.

If you move the load 2' out from that reference point, then you doubled the feet part of the equation. Since the limit is as stated, that means that you can only lift 1000#.

Other thing is power vs losses. On old equipment, like my '65 Ford 3000, I can't lift much at idle....it takes awhile. If I increase the rpms, the faster the engine turns the more pressure is developed by the pump and the faster the load raises.

It's not more pressure as the engine turns faster, its volume of oil moved quicker, that make the loader faster.

 

[Zebrafive]

OP have you check pressure of the tractor's hydraulics and compared them to factory specs? That will tell you if hydraulics is getting weak.

 

[CobyRupert]

Do you know if it's too much for the loader or too much for the tractor's hydraulic system?

The capacity of an FEL's is dependent on what PSI the tractor is supplying.

Maybe invest in a hydraulic pressure gauge so you can see what the tractor is supplying to the loader.

If spears don't curl at normal operating pressure, I think the pressure will build until 1 of 3 things happens: Hydraulic cylinder moves, tractor's hydraulic system goes into relief, or cylinder's seals get blown out.
Looking at FEL spec's they list ratings at different tractor hydraulic pressures, but I don't see where they have a maximum pressure rating. https://www.woodsequipment.com/files/Products/Manuals/MAN0554.pdf

When it doesn't curl, can you hear the engine load or tell if the hydraulic system is going into relief?

 

[k0ua]

Remember guys, hydraulic pumps on an open center system don't make pressure. They make flow. Pressure develops when that hydraulic flow meets resistance. A hydraulic pump makes the same pressure at idle as it does at high speed, which is to say none. Now all hydraulic valves leak. Just how much they leak varies. When you get that little more lift ability by increasing RPM is the fact that you have increased the flow rate so that now more pressure can be developed to overcome the leakages in the system. The rate that the load can be lifted is of course much more at high speed than at idle. One more time. The hydraulic pumps on our tractors don't make pressure, never have and never will.

Back to the original posters "problem". Of course the relief valve is going into relief and fluid is now flowing over the relief valve and back to tank when he tries to curl that excessive (for relief valve setting) load out on the end of his bale spear. Now the question: is this normal operation or is this a defect? Well without the specifications and a pressure gauge we do not know. If I was to hazard a WAG I would say that a 30 to 40 year old tractor has a very good possibility that the relief valve spring is likely weaker than when it was new and the control valves leak more fluid past them also. It would not take a whole lot of effort and money to replace the pressure relief spring or shim it.

 

[k0ua]

OP have you check pressure of the tractor's hydraulics and compared them to factory specs? That will tell you if hydraulics is getting weak.

Yup....

 

[bazman82]

I will have to get a pressure gauge to check. I may know someone I can borrow one from. As for a relief noise when it tries to curl, I don't recall there being any noise when I have tried to curl but I could be wrong, I'm usually thinking about a million other things I need to do. I do however get the relief noise when I curl the bucket back all the way to its stopping point. I will be moving some round bales this weekend, I will try to get a video of what it does when I try to curl it with the bale spear partial in and fully in.

 

[bazman82]

I should also mention that the loader plugs into my only 2 ports I have in the rear of the tractor. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.

 

[k0ua]

I will have to get a pressure gauge to check. I may know someone I can borrow one from. As for a relief noise when it tries to curl, I don't recall there being any noise when I have tried to curl but I could be wrong, I'm usually thinking about a million other things I need to do. I do however get the relief noise when I curl the bucket back all the way to its stopping point. I will be moving some round bales this weekend, I will try to get a video of what it does when I try to curl it with the bale spear partial in and fully in.

By definition something is going into relief. Either the relief valve, which is the most likely scenario, or the pump is so worn that the fluid is escaping internally, not a likely scenario but possible or the control valves or cylinder leakage, also not all that likely but possible.

When you try to pickup a load and the cylinder stops movement, something has to happen. either the relief valve opens, the pump "grenades" and explodes, or a hose blows, or engine stalls, something HAS to happen.

 

[Richard]

bazman82
Are you aware the further forward from bucket attachment/pivot pin the load is located will exponentially increase the difficulty to raise or curl the load?

This is getting my vote. I've got an industrial loader/backhoe. I think lifting force is something like 6,000 lbs (don't recall).

Was moving some boulders and found one "about the same size as the others" BUT, it was shorter and stuck out further since I couldn't fit it into my bucket.

Was all I could do to lift that boulder. Was so bad, I was extending my backhoe out the back to get some weight leverage back there. I was at times, teetering on the front wheels until I did that. Then, I had to use my steering brakes to help turn.

It wasn't really a monster of a boulder (though it was large), it was a pancake boulder and a good portion of it stuck way out the front, giving me some fits.

 

[KYErik]

I assume your curl cylinders retract to curl the spear upward? My JD loader is designed the same way and it really limits how much curl pressure it has. I have an issue curling tight large round bales (5 X 6).

My old Case 530 loader has a linkage that curls the bucket when the cylinders extend- a much better system with more power (there are more square inches of surface area on the flat side of the hydraulic cylinder piston than there are on the rod side of the cylinder piston). I suppose most loader manufacturers use retracting cylinders to curl the bucket upward because there are fewer moving parts. If I ever purchase another loader, it will be one that uses extending cylinders to curl the bucket upward.

 

[k0ua]

I assume your curl cylinders retract to curl the spear upward? My JD loader is designed the same way and it really limits how much curl pressure it has. I have an issue curling tight large round bales (5 X 6).

My old Case 530 loader has a linkage that curls the bucket when the cylinders extend- a much better system with more power (there are more square inches of surface area on the flat side of the hydraulic cylinder piston than there are on the rod side of the cylinder piston). I suppose most loader manufacturers use retracting cylinders to curl the bucket upward because there are fewer moving parts. If I ever purchase another loader, it will be one that uses extending cylinders to curl the bucket upward.

He brings up a very good point about the forces available when curling vs. the forces available when dumping. Curling is the weakest force because of the rod being in the cylinder and less surface area for the fluid to push against.