T8 Lights loosing their brightness?

[ultrarunner]

I know this may sound flippant but has anyone washed those old T8 bulbs. Dust can certainly dim them. Not arguing that they may not dim over time but a bucket of water, some window wash concentrate and a rag could buy you some cheaper brightness. Don’t forget to wash the fixtures where they reflect.

Good point... mine are in lab clean rooms and Operating Rooms... extremely clean areas.

The 6 bulb fixtures are all switched for either 2 bulb or 4 bulb or with both switches on 6 bulbs.

6 bulb is the norm for cleaning and set up and 2 bulb when room is in between cases but set up... during surgery all T-8 typically off.

They are set in a rectangular pattern of 4 six bulb fixtures end to end per side.... so in a 22 by 22 room making for 96 T8 bulbs and the smaller procedure rooms have 72 T8 bulbs...

In addition... there are 4 can spots and 2 three bulb quartz halogen surgical light pods...

A LOT OF LUMENS IN A SMALL AREA WITH INFINITE CONTROL WITH A COUPLE OF WALL SWITCHES.

I have not used any LED bulbs to date... still using existing stock.

It is interesting to note in the Lab area the six bulb T8 fixtures are gasketed and required removing 8 machine screws to remove the cover... what a pain over the last 24 years as they are not required to be so...

The color of light is very important... and lots of surgeons to please.

Also, the Operating Room lamp Pods cost $12,000 each back in 1994 and I have 14 of them... LED has been out for a long time... at least since early 2000 but the current cost per LED Pod is $18,000

 

[grsthegreat]

ive seen LED lamps fade over time and use, just as florescent t8 and t12 will fade over time. I am an electrical contractor, and i dont believe the hype placed on led's life span one bit. in Europe the industry was forced to STOP stating that LED LIGHTS CAN LAST 50,000 HOURS. The tests ran on them average less than 6,000 hours. The Diode may last for 50,000 hours, but the electronics sure dont. Ive seen parking lot light fixtures lose 1/2 their lumens within 2-3 years.

Now ive used leds in my own house with mixed results. My office light fixture has open faced lamps, and i have had 2 LED's from home depot burn out within 1 year. Funny thing was, i took the lamps back to HD, and they told me that that model of their own home brand was no longer available so couldn't be replaced..... warranty my butt.

The suppliers keep improving on their products, but i feel it was unjust for them to say they have a 50,000 hour lifespan when they know thats not true. I use LED's when the fixture is a pain in the butt to replace lamps in hope that they will last. But im probibly just fooling myself. I had a client csall me last week about a LED light fixture i placed outside his barn last year. The lamp burned out. I used a manlift to get up there...and im pissed. The old HID i tore off there had lasted 15 years.

 

[ultrarunner]

ive seen LED lamps fade over time and use, just as florescent t8 and t12 will fade over time. I am an electrical contractor, and i dont believe the hype placed on led's life span one bit. in Europe the industry was forced to STOP stating that LED LIGHTS CAN LAST 50,000 HOURS. The tests ran on them average less than 6,000 hours. The Diode may last for 50,000 hours, but the electronics sure dont. Ive seen parking lot light fixtures lose 1/2 their lumens within 2-3 years.

Now ive used leds in my own house with mixed results. My office light fixture has open faced lamps, and i have had 2 LED's from home depot burn out within 1 year. Funny thing was, i took the lamps back to HD, and they told me that that model of their own home brand was no longer available so couldn't be replaced..... warranty my butt.

The suppliers keep improving on their products, but i feel it was unjust for them to say they have a 50,000 hour lifespan when they know thats not true. I use LED's when the fixture is a pain in the butt to replace lamps in hope that they will last. But im probibly just fooling myself. I had a client csall me last week about a LED light fixture i placed outside his barn last year. The lamp burned out. I used a manlift to get up there...and im pissed. The old HID i tore off there had lasted 15 years.

Some of the original LED were quite a bit more stout and expensive... at least when doing a side by side comparison.

I contacted one manufacturer and was told they are continually making improvements... but would not say if it was longevity, light quality or lower price... my guess is making them cheaper to hit a price point.

I have several that I really like and they are simply no longer made...

In general... I am pleased with the switch but not ready to commit to going LED for an entire Hospital since I have plenty of old style inventory...

One place I did change was the main lobby entrance under the canopy... two of the sodium ballasts went bad... so I just eliminated the ballasts and screwed in 60 watt equivalent LED bulbs...

It has been 14 months an no issue being on all night and the cost a fraction of buying ballasts and sodium bulbs.

All of the outdoor fixtures can be reached with a 12 foot ladder... except for the parking lot lights which require a bucket truck.

 

[grsthegreat]

There is a Winco foods here in Coeur d Alene that had 1/2 of their parking light fixtures fail within 2 years. The manufacturer would supply new fixtures under warranty, but the contractor had to eat replacement labor costs and bucket truck time. Who knows how long the replacements will last. it was made by same manufacturer.

 

[ultrarunner]

I had a deal set up with the local utility to convert all our Hospital Pole parking light fixtures to LED... no upfront costs and 10 year warranty and the monthly payment would be billed to our utility bill and "Paid" through energy savings... the numbers all penciled out and the grants/incentives substantial...

Took 9 months to get PGE approval and the day I received the contract the Hospital was sold... so I was not able to execute the contract...

It's been a couple of years and the pole lighting is abysmal... only 50% work now and under orders not to repair or replace as it is corporate decision now...

 

[Zerk]

I have had 2 LED bulbs fail in my house. I wired a house a young guy, who built them into his ceiling. I told me they last forever. Made me chuckle, the stuff people believe.


Throw another bulb up, and your done in 5 minutes, for an existing fixture. Rememer before LEDs were the future, so were flourescent.

 

[Zerk]

ive seen LED lamps fade over time and use, just as florescent t8 and t12 will fade over time. I am an electrical contractor, and i dont believe the hype placed on led's life span one bit..

Agree. Plus people need to do the math. I have replaced some LEDs in my house that are on must of day. Price of them has come down, some due to technology, but I also wonder if some are just cheap.

 

[Zerk]

I know this may sound flippant but has anyone washed those old T8 bulbs. Dust can certainly dim them. Not arguing that they may not dim over time but a bucket of water, some window wash concentrate and a rag could buy you some cheaper brightness. Don稚 forget to wash the fixtures where they reflect.

I read the old tables used to calculate lumens are outdated because they were written when people could smoke at work. This was 20 years go, maybe tables have been updated since them.


Those 100 year lights are going to get grimey.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Remember when nicotine coated everything? BIG heavy glass Ashtrays sitting on office desks?

During the transition, I got an air purifier from a factory lunchroom. The Nicotine in that thing was beyond belief!

I STILL somehow expect to be asked, snoking or not smoking when I walk into a restaurant.

 

[bigtiller]

I was always amazed at how dirty yellow the inside of the windshield could get in just a few months with smokers.

 

[MossRoad]

Yep. Fluorescent bulbs get dimmer over time. I change about a dozen every week of all sizes, wattages, shapes, etc... most times it's just the bulb. Sometimes it's the ballast. And we always change all of the bulbs in multi-bulb fixtures. You can see the difference between new and old if you don't. More noticable at night with no natural light coming in the windows.

 

[teejk]

I was always amazed at how dirty yellow the inside of the windshield could get in just a few months with smokers.

One of the downsides of banning smoking on airplanes was that the mechanics always knew if they had a bad rivet in the fuselage because the nicotine in the pressurized cabin would leach out and leave a trail.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yep. Fluorescent bulbs get dimmer over time. I change about a dozen every week of all sizes, wattages, shapes, etc... most times it's just the bulb. Sometimes it's the ballast. And we always change all of the bulbs in multi-bulb fixtures. You can see the difference between new and old if you don't. More noticable at night with no natural light coming in the windows.

Can't quite bring myself to do it as it costs nearly the same to dispose of the bulbs as to buy them... only a slight exaggeration.

But changing out 2 in a 4 bulb fixture works well as does putting the new bulb in the middle of a 3 bulb fixture...

2, 3, 4 and 6 bulb fixtures equal 90% of the hospital lighting...

About 5 years in I was replacing ballasts all the time... it's getting to be the end of March and I have not replaced a single ballast this year... quite remarkable.

A fair number are on 24/7.

If you want to shorten the life of T8... just turn them on and off 50 times a day... 3 months and done. (Back Business Office Restroom comes to mind)

 

[ultrarunner]

Remember when nicotine coated everything? BIG heavy glass Ashtrays sitting on office desks?

During the transition, I got an air purifier from a factory lunchroom. The Nicotine in that thing was beyond belief!

I STILL somehow expect to be asked, snoking or not smoking when I walk into a restaurant.

Managing rentals it was the long term smokers that did a lot of damage... the nicotine would drip down the walls...

 

[MossRoad]

Can't quite bring myself to do it as it costs nearly the same to dispose of the bulbs as to buy them... only a slight exaggeration.

But changing out 2 in a 4 bulb fixture works well as does putting the new bulb in the middle of a 3 bulb fixture...

2, 3, 4 and 6 bulb fixtures equal 90% of the hospital lighting...

About 5 years in I was replacing ballasts all the time... it's getting to be the end of March and I have not replaced a single ballast this year... quite remarkable.

A fair number are on 24/7.

If you want to shorten the life of T8... just turn them on and off 50 times a day... 3 months and done. (Back Business Office Restroom comes to mind)

I have no idea of the bulb disposal cost. I do have to box and label all of them and take them to a central collection point when the disposal boxes get full. Someone else takes care of them from that point. In most of my buildings there are about 8 different fluorescent bulb types. In one, I have 17 or 18 different types! :confused2: Gotta love those architects. :laughing:

At my old job, about 20 years ago, they left the lights on 24-7 in most places. One night I got bored, and walked around the building and counted fluorescent bulbs and wattages in the 4 bigggest rooms/areas where they were left on. Then I went to the facilities manager and we figured up the KWhours it took to run those bulbs, and the electric rate they were paying. We figured if they turned off the lights in just those 4 areas for 6 hours at night, they'd save $12,500 per year on the electric bill..... I got $50 and a coffee cup in appreciation. :laughing:

Funny thing was it was called the Bright Idea Contest. Kinda ironic. I have several of those coffee mugs. The old ones have incandescent bulbs. The later ones had compact fluorescents on them.

 

[MossRoad]

Managing rentals it was the long term smokers that did a lot of damage... the nicotine would drip down the walls...

A friend of ours parents both passed away in the last few years. They were both pack-a-day+ smokers. The house was almost unsellable. Kinda like a horror movie set with the stained walls. Just scary to see that kind of environment. The house went for about 1/4 of market value and the kids were just happy to be able to get it gone.

 

[CobyRupert]

If you want to shorten the life of T8... just turn them on and off 50 times a day... 3 months and done. (Back Business Office Restroom comes to mind)

This is where outlawing incandescent bulbs in a "one-size fits all"/ "save the world" mentality doesn't work.

Yep, you can save a lot of energy and energy $ with fluorescents or LED's if the lights are going to be on for long periods of time. But if it's a storage closet, or motion detector lights, restroom, or some-such, where the light is only on for a few minutes a day, but is switched on and off 20 times a day, it gets complicated.
At that point the energy savings may not offset the shortened lifespan and replacement costs on a bulb that has a significantly increased initial cost.

It's easy to figure energy costs savings or look up the lifespan (hours) of different types of bulbs if the lights are continuously on, but I've never found any reliable studies that tell you how many on/off cycles each type of bulb is good for.

 

[the old grind]

What Coby said. ^^ :thumbsup: I'm using 4 'types' T-8 LEDs in three color temps (3k, 4k, 6k) Some are ballast-free, but one feeds from either end only, and one uses one wire from each end. All you need is tombstones and tubes, but FM interference is there from internal ballast in each.

The o'all better T-8s I bought since were Philips and Osram/Syl, all 4k color, either poly or glass envelopes. They're 'replacements', make no radio interference and work with newer OEM T-8 Fe core or electronic instant-start ballasts. Of those, my pick for all T-8s has been this guy since I found them a few years ago. All 'electronic' , ~9 oz wt and don't seem to heat up much with LEDs. Amazon Prime ~$12/ea, or 10-pack for ~$80. (Robertson ISU232T8120/3P20116 for 2 T-8s)



Use/experience: besides 12 2x4's in my downstairs (over shop machines & Lionel train, etc) I had planned to put 8 or 9 in the barn if needed. (40' x 40' x 14', so just a bit low for fancy high bay fixtures.:laughing By the time I'd put the minimum four 2-tubers and fit or refit 'em for LED's I was amazed how bright just 8 ~$4 tubes make the whole thing. Proof is when a 12 x 14' door or two is wide open at mid-day, or its dusk and there's no dark corner as you might expect.

Just sayin': when I put an OOB-new FL and LED SxS on old or new type ballast the Led is brighter, both in the 4-5k Kelvin color region I prefer to 'orange' or 'blue' light of 3k and 6k. I'd prepped four or more fixtures that now are just jumbo 'drop lights' for lack of need anywhere else. (BA they are!)

 

[Industrial Toys]

I once did some rough calculations on the number of probably full size flourescent tubes that went poof on 911. It was staggering! All that Mercury!

 

[dnw64]

One other very big factor in the difference in light output of fluorescent and LEDs is temperature. This is most often noticed in winter in an unheated area such as a barn or workshop.

Fluorescents produce more light the hotter they are (to a limit, I suppose). When you flick them on at 0ｰ F they are really, really dim.

LEDs on the other hand, actually produce more light the colder they are. Remember, they are a semiconductor...

While the difference is not nearly as much as with fluorescents, if you replace a few fluorescent tubes with LEDs and they are in the same space and you turn them on at 0ｰ you will notice a HUGE difference.

We replaced around 300 T8 tubes in our shop a couple years ago. In our warehouse we had 6-tube fixtures, and by non-scientific observation we could get the same amount of light with 4 LEDs. We decided to up the light output and replace them all. We have had one tube go bad so far. It was replaced under warranty with no questions asked. We bought Hyperikon through Amazon for about $12 ea, and got a $5/tube rebate from our state energy efficiency program. I estimated they paid for themselves within about 8 months, not including the time to install them. I only had people work on installing them when they had no paying work to do, which took about 2 months. Part of the reason for that is that we need to use a scissor lift for most of them, and it takes time to do the daily inspection to operate the lift, so if someone only had 15 minutes it wasn't worth doing anything.