Tell me if I'm on the right track (newbie)

[MtnViewRanch]

I'm going to look at this another way. I personally would want to have and maintain the 2.5 miles of road in tip top condition. I would not even consider maintaining that much road with either of the tractors you have mentioned as my main use machine. Not that they could not do it, but would simply take much longer than with a larger heavier machine.

Even just the next frame size up for me would be the minimum. I understand that it may be harder to do some of the other things that you want to do in more restricted spaces, or even impossible. But using the implements that make the overall maintenance of the road easier simply don't go hand in hand with 2.5 miles of road and a smaller machine IMO.

Only guessing here, sort of what any of us are doing without having been there. But for that much road, you need the right implements for different processes that may need to be done to have and keep the road well maintained.

Here are some examples. These same type of implements can be sized for the mentioned tractors and of course larger machines :thumbsup:

A 7' land plane grading scraper. (LPGS) The heavier the better.

A hydraulic actuated rear blade.

A box blade with hydraulic actuated rippers or a ROBB at the minimum.

You can get these implements to fit properly behind the smaller tractors and at least you have the right implements, but it will take much much longer to do the same road maintenance. Now if you are going to be hauling the equipment back and forth for a year or two, then by all means go with the smaller stuff to start with. It makes transporting much easier and less costly.

Another tip, load all 4 tires of anything that you get. You are going to need all the weight that you can get and every pound helps.

Just my :2cents:. Good luck with this whole process. :thumbsup:

 

[cathy liebchen]

the best machine for making and maintaining atv and SxS trails is a tracked skid steerer- that is what all of the ORV parks here use. No one uses tractors for that.

For road maintenance you need a big heavy tractor capable of pulling a 7 foot blade with TNT, not a compact tractor like a 25hp one

 

[houska]

Thanks!

Definitely a standard front bucket with SSQA on the FEL along with the grapple. I took that as a given, but def. worth saying explicitly.

After watching YouTube videos, I sorta took grapple as a general purpose implement for collecting and loading brush, smallish rocks, logs (not good for chopped wood though), which since a lot of the work with ATV trails will be clearing out brush <2" in diameter, and bigger trees will drop limbs after winter (ice storms...) in particular seemed like a good idea. I had to look up what a rock bucket is after rScotty's message, but at first glance seemed like a sorta specialized hybrid of FEL std bucket and grapple. Interesting idea on the SSQA forks rather than grapple, but think given what I need to do, the grasping ability - and attendant plumbing - will be very helpful.

Also interesting idea re straight blade w end caps vs box blade; stored for further consideration after I have a few hours in the tractor seat to consider it better.

Point taken re multiple tractors. If it happens, it happens. (The past 20 years I've done lots of work with computers....if you asked me 25 years ago, I would never have thought I'd ever end up with more than one, but life sneaks up on you. Maybe same will happen with tractors...) Actually, though she's rather bemused about the whole thing right now, I rather suspect my wife will soon quite enjoy using *my* tractor and we'll get a 2nd one in part for marital bliss Or maybe that's when I get an excavator....

Editing to add: see some more replies above me; will respond to tomorrow. It's becoming clear the "right" answer is different depending on whether the priority is regular access road maintenance or the ATV trials and general purpose mucking around. Good food for thought, also/esp. which of the two I'm more prepared to outsource to contractors/rented equipment, with little dabbling from me here and there, versus which one I want to regularly do myself and only get in help for big stuff once in a while.

 

[fried1765]

Assume that was a joke.

NOPE!

 

[fried1765]

If i was running an excavating company, then a TLB might be my choice (in addition to excavators) As a homeowner, a "real" backhoe works fine, especially if you have other needs for the tractor. They all have a place and a cost point, that's why they sell them.

I AM a "homeowner" and have a "real" (TLB) backhoe.
Bought it used 33 years ago.
Am VERY happy that all those years ago I did not buy less!
Refurbished the Ford 3 years ago.
Looks like new now.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks!

Definitely a standard front bucket with SSQA on the FEL along with the grapple. I took that as a given, but def. worth saying explicitly.

After watching YouTube videos, I sorta took grapple as a general purpose implement for collecting and loading brush, smallish rocks, logs (not good for chopped wood though), which since a lot of the work with ATV trails will be clearing out brush <2" in diameter, and bigger trees will drop limbs after winter (ice storms...) in particular seemed like a good idea. I had to look up what a rock bucket is after rScotty's message, but at first glance seemed like a sorta specialized hybrid of FEL std bucket and grapple. Interesting idea on the SSQA forks rather than grapple, but think given what I need to do, the grasping ability - and attendant plumbing - will be very helpful.

Also interesting idea re straight blade w end caps vs box blade; stored for further consideration after I have a few hours in the tractor seat to consider it better.

Point taken re multiple tractors. If it happens, it happens. (The past 20 years I've done lots of work with computers....if you asked me 25 years ago, I would never have thought I'd ever end up with more than one, but life sneaks up on you. Maybe same will happen with tractors...) Actually, though she's rather bemused about the whole thing right now, I rather suspect my wife will soon quite enjoy using *my* tractor and we'll get a 2nd one in part for marital bliss Or maybe that's when I get an excavator....

Editing to add: see some more replies above me; will respond to tomorrow. It's becoming clear the "right" answer is different depending on whether the priority is regular access road maintenance or the ATV trials and general purpose mucking around. Good food for thought, also/esp. which of the two I'm more prepared to outsource to contractors/rented equipment, with little dabbling from me here and there, versus which one I want to regularly do myself and only get in help for big stuff once in a while.

Road maintenance takes a surprisingly big heavy machine in order to end up with a smooth surface instead of just deepening the washboards. Making a halfway smooth road - especially one with a crown and drainage - is one of the most difficult and specialized of of all tractor tasks and especially hard to do with most pulled implements. If all you want is a path through the woods for a battered 4wd pickup truck , a tractor or dozer can make the initial path, but a decent road needs building by something with a large blade mounted either midline or on the front. And that blade needs to be sharp and heavy. AND it needs to be adjustable for angle, TILT, and offset. Yep, that's either a road grader or a dozer..... and I'd recommend you hire one to have that work done....at least the first few times.

Everyone on TBN will recommend that a loader have SSQA and a set of front remotes. It has become the standard. So get your loader with SSQA and front remotes if you can. It opens up a whole world of options including all the types of grapples and skid steer rental specialty attachements. But don't make it a deal-breaker on otherwise the right machine because both SSQA and front remote hydraulics can be added later - but do get a price on doing so. Generally you can add SSQA for about $500 and front hydraulic controls and outlets for about twice that.

The only advantage to a rock bucket and grapple instead of a standard front bucket and grapple is that with the rock bucket I can push forward with the tines an inch or so beneath the surface and still leave the dirt behind when picking up the trash. That's necessary here on our land, but may not make any difference to you. If you have SSQA you can try out each method and only takes a few minutes to swap them out.

If you are at all handy, remember that you can buy simple bolt-on hydraulic grapples that will attach to any bucket that you end up with.

Box blades for the rear are inexpensive, most people have one laying around. You can't hurt a box blade....at least I've never heard of anyone doing so. They are the most rugged implement going and you can pile weight on them to offset a full loader or just to do more work. All of which means that everyone has a box blade or two - and every box blade ever built still works just fine. They are basic, inexpensive, and tend to come with used tractors. Most every dealer will offer to throw one in.... A used box blade is about a $250 bonus around here. I think we've got three of them laying out in the implement row behind the barn. And they are universal; you can always borrow one.

Good back blades are a different story. All of them have adjustable angle, but the better ones have finer adjustment on that angle adjustment, as well as having adjustable tilt and adjustable offset. Those adjustments can be manual or hydraulic. Either will work, but hydraulic sure is nice. Of course hydraulics can also be added later to any of the better blades or tractors. The better back blades will also have options for removeable or folding end caps as well as having some form of trailing wheels or skids to help it follow the ground without so much digging in. Ours is a "Big Rhino" brand and we use it more for snow than for dirt.
BTW, using any towed implement requires driving forward while looking backwards. Combined with cold and bouncing around, that can be real tough on your back.....

Little tractors make great power wheel barrows. I've found that some rural wives just love their tractors and others would just rather do the chores by hand - I've heard several say they think the noise, grease, and smell just aren't worth putting up with and they would rather do chores by hand & enjoy them.
I can see both ways. My wife thinks that tractors can be great fun - for me - and she is glad we have them, but honestly she rarely uses a tractor even though she knows how. She's one of those who prefer to do chores by hand. Maybe it's an exercise and quiet time thing.

Good luck on the excavator! As good as my wife is with supporting our tractors, she draws the line at an excavator - though she doesn't mind hiring one when we need it.
rScotty

 

[check]

Wow, Houska, several hundred acres? And a 4 km road? Man, you scored big time! And speaking of Canadian Shield, where exactly are you compared to Algonquin Park? (We have 25 acres on the lake just south of Algonquin Park, near the West End.). And we have a Kubota, and are very happy with both dealers that are in between Toronto where we live and the property.

And I’m not so sure about all this discussion about heavy duty road building equipment. Didn’t you say the previous owner had maintained it well, and so don’t you just need some maintenance work? I suppose it depends on how many rocks you have just beneath the surface. I maintain my half kilometer road with just a box blade behind my Kubota BX 25.

 

[houska]

Wow, Houska, several hundred acres? And a 4 km road? Man, you scored big time! And speaking of Canadian Shield, where exactly are you compared to Algonquin Park? (We have 25 acres on the lake just south of Algonquin Park, near the West End.). And we have a Kubota, and are very happy with both dealers that are in between Toronto where we live and the property.

And I’m not so sure about all this discussion about heavy duty road building equipment. Didn’t you say the previous owner had maintained it well, and so don’t you just need some maintenance work? I suppose it depends on how many rocks you have just beneath the surface. I maintain my half kilometer road with just a box blade behind my Kubota BX 25.

:wave: across Algonquin Park to you! We're between Perth and Sharbot Lake, E of Algonquin 90 mins from Ottawa.
Have closest Kubota dealer on the way home in Perth, another in Ottawa, a Branson dealer also on the way home in Almonte/Carleton Place, and (tbc) Kioti in Athens, a slight detour to the southeast.

 

[houska]

Well, I've started reaching out to dealers and they're keen to give quotes even before I visit to put butt in seat. (Sometimes even before I really tell them what I'm looking for... )

Nearest is Branson. Listens and is thoughtful while listening. Has a 4225H in stock he seems motivated to sell, offers 4225H+BL200 loader+B860 backhoe for a decent but not super price.

Next nearest is Kubota. Listens and is thoughtful in followup. First pushed me towards MX4800, but then quoted L4060+loader+BH92 hoe instead, not sure whether because he decided his initial advice was wrong or because we wants to sell a L4060 more(?). I was surprised his quote is about the same as the Branson (not 100% apples-to-apples comparison, but close enough), at today's Cdn/US exchange rates about 16% below the Kubota USA online list price calculator (there isn't a Cdn equivalent I think).

(LS dealer is away until next week. Kioti dealer unimpressive, decided 5 mins into the conversation a CK2510H was the machine for me 'cause that's what he sells the most, and my concerns on weight and 19 HP PTO were brushed aside, telling me I'd never need more that that anyway...)

I'm rather surprised to be being quoted Branson at about the same as $ as Kubota L! I thought from what I had read Branson would be significantly less expensive. The specs on the 4225H are a bit better, but still. Reactions?

 

[ericm979]

Maybe Canadian prices? Maybe Kubota's expensive in my area. My 3725H was cheaper than the quotes I got for L3301/3901, let alone an L60 series. The Kubota quotes were list price, which seems typical here.

I like my Branson but based on features I'd get an L60 if it's the same price. Some people may be concerned about the electronics and regen on the Kubota.

 

[houska]

Maybe Canadian prices?

Possible, with the tariffs the U.S. has imposed on China and Canada in the past year - and Canada's retaliation - it's distinctly possible prices end up very different, if say the Branson is first imported into the U.S. while the Kubota comes direct from Asia.

I like my Branson but based on features I'd get an L60 if it's the same price. Some people may be concerned about the electronics and regen on the Kubota.

Curious what's your reasoning? Mind you, I haven't sat in either machine yet, but on most specs the 4225H and L4060 are very close, with the Branson significantly higher on loader capacity. Mind you, I certainly see a lot more orange than red around here, so a) I wonder why, and b) probably eventual resale of the Kubota would be easier.

 

[ning]

Possible, with the tariffs the U.S. has imposed on China and Canada in the past year - and Canada's retaliation - it's distinctly possible prices end up very different, if say the Branson is first imported into the U.S. while the Kubota comes direct from Asia.

Curious what's your reasoning? Mind you, I haven't sat in either machine yet, but on most specs the 4225H and L4060 are very close, with the Branson significantly higher on loader capacity. Mind you, I certainly see a lot more orange than red around here, so a) I wonder why, and b) probably eventual resale of the Kubota would be easier.

Given the preceived "quality" and "value" of the orange over pretty much everything else CUT/SCUT, I'd've gone orange instead of red if the price and features were equal.

In my case, I got a significantly heavier tractor that could lift twice as much for about the same price (3520h w/ FEL & Backhoe vs same on L3301). My dealer is much farther away (2 hours vs 15 minutes), but I'm handy and willing to learn more and confident that my dealer has parts availability. There's a lot going into the decision - features/capability, financial, warranty, dealer, location; there can't be a right answer for everyone, but there's plenty of anecdotes for free here (just have to view the occasional ad haha).

Also: Resale value is a red herring unless the purchase price is very similar or the resale prices are hugely different, as there's a cost for tying up the money today for a return tomorrow instead of putting it to better use now.

 

[ericm979]

Curious what's your reasoning? Mind you, I haven't sat in either machine yet, but on most specs the 4225H and L4060 are very close, with the Branson significantly higher on loader capacity. Mind you, I certainly see a lot more orange than red around here, so a) I wonder why, and b) probably eventual resale of the Kubota would be easier.

The HST+ additional automatic two speed transmission on the L60 would be the biggest one. I have to stop to change ranges on the Branson (that's typical on CUTS as there's no synchros on the range transmission). Being able to slip between the two gears while moving extends the range of each range. In my case I'd be able to go faster on those short transfers between work areas (my land is steep; there's no place where I need high range). Other parts of HST+ sound interesting but some like stall guard I don't see much need for myself. I've not stalled the Branson, I can hear when the engine's dragging down and I let off the HST pedal.

Branson's mechanical linked HST and throttle works well in low and mid range but in high range I need to add throttle. An electronic system like Kubota's would know what range it was in and adjust accordingly. OTOH there's no regens needed on the Branson and if I have problems with the DPF (I haven't) I can remove it. With the Kubota there's regens though from what people post they're pretty painless.

There's a good video by Messicks' about the HST+. Messicks' videos are useful even if you don't have a Kubota.

Kubota rates their loaders lift at some distance from the pins while everyone else rates them at the pins. So their rating looks lower than it is. I'd have to make measurements and do math to see how much difference it really is.

Don't get me wrong, I like my Branson a lot. It'd have been $10k more to go to the similar HP L60 Kubota. HST+ sounds nice but it's not $10k nice. And my Branson dealer's much better than the two Kubota dealers I visited. OTOH I've gotten so much more use out of the tractor than I (or my wife) thought that I could have justified that $10k had I known. She said as much after a year of owning the Branson. I'll hold that thought for when it's time to get a backhoe.

The 4225 and 3725 are the same except for the fuel injectors (per my dealer). The 3725's engine is super smooth and quiet. Much more so than an L3301. I think the balance shaft is why it's smooth.

Kubota resale would probably be easier where I am because Kubota is more well known. I don't plan on selling it though so that was not much of a factor.

 

[rScotty]

I thought we found earlier that the Branson rated higher on loader capacity because of the way the different companies measured their FEL lift. As I recall, when measured the same way both brands came out very nearly the same. Typical advertising fluff.
rScotty

 

[ning]

I thought we found earlier that the Branson rated higher on loader capacity because of the way the different companies measured their FEL lift. As I recall, when measured the same way both brands came out very nearly the same. Typical advertising fluff.
rScotty

Looking at specs directly (Kubota, Branson BL25R, Branson BL200), I see:
Max lift height: 104.7" 103.8" 104"
Lift @ pins: 1715# 2100# 2701# (Branson doesn't state it's at the pins on the BL25R, but it probably is)
Breakout @ pins: 3301# 3531# 3660#

I don't think it's a matter of "measuring it differently" here; the Branson loaders are - at least on paper - definitely stronger.

My tractor - 3520h - has the BL25R and I was using it to compare when I was buying - remember that at my price point, I was comparing to the L3301 which was actually more expensive than the Branson setup; the L3301 had the considerably weaker LA525 (1130# at the pins @ full height). I believe Eric's 3725h has the BL200, which is even stronger yet.

 

[rScotty]

Looking at specs directly (Kubota, Branson BL25R, Branson BL200), I see:
Max lift height: 104.7" 103.8" 104"
Lift @ pins: 1715# 2100# 2701# (Branson doesn't state it's at the pins on the BL25R, but it probably is)
Breakout @ pins: 3301# 3531# 3660#

I don't think it's a matter of "measuring it differently" here; the Branson loaders are - at least on paper - definitely stronger.

My tractor - 3520h - has the BL25R and I was using it to compare when I was buying - remember that at my price point, I was comparing to the L3301 which was actually more expensive than the Branson setup; the L3301 had the considerably weaker LA525 (1130# at the pins @ full height). I believe Eric's 3725h has the BL200, which is even stronger yet.

Yeppers, that's my point. It's easy to manipulate loader specs and tractor manufacturers have been doing it for a long time. I can remember law suits on those very specs back in the 1970s when we first began to see foreign built compact tractors. And the advertising departments act like it's all new again.

For instance, take the "breakout force" you mentioned. Just what is "breakout force". Does it include bucket rotation? Or just loader arm lift? Or both of those things taken together? Or both in sequence? And where is it measured? Every manufacturer has their own definition and opinion. Pretty obviously the one place it is meaningless to measure breakout is back at the bucket pins. I'm not sure that most definitions of breakout force even exists at the bucket pins. Lift maybe exists there, but breakout force....well, probably not. The best place for that would be out at the far lip of the bucket, because that is where resistance to all the above is max.

If we measure breakout at the pins do we even need have a bucket on the FEL? Now there's a pretty nifty question. The engineering and advertising departments might have different answers for that one. As well as buyers versus salemen.

BTW, lift specs without giving the height at which they are measured are also meaningless. The way FEL geometry works on tractor loaders means that it doesn't lift nearly so much at full height as it does down low. It's not a matter of stability, it's a matter of geometry. So load is not typically a number, it is a usually shown on a chart of height vs lift force. And when you look at the chart, note that not only is the lift force different at the pins versus in the bucket, but it isn't even the same shape of lift curve.

So we need to be comparing lift using those those charts of force versus height. THere's a page of those charts n my Kubota and John Deere manuals. Normally there will be a series of curves on the chart showing lift force vs height taken at the pins and also at other points in the bucket and at the far edge. That way compares forces rather than advertising skill.
rScotty

 

[shooterdon]

If your road is currently accessible in 2WD, it cannot be that bad. Give some serious thought at just how "good" a road you want vs what you need. That will dictate how much tractor you need.

Is it practical to move your camp/cabin site so that a 2.5 mile road for cars is not needed? If you could set up 200-400 yards into your property, it makes rest of your road part of your ATV trails.

 

[ericm979]

Mine's a BL25, the 200 came out a while after I got my 3725. I looked up the specs for Kubota (on the USA web site) and they now list capacity at max lift both at the pins and at their traditional 500mm in front of the pins. The LA855 does look like it has lower capacity than the Branson loaders. There's also a smaller and larger capacity loaders for the L60s. I don't know which models can take which loaders.

The Branson does have two HST+ features- linked HST and throttle and cruise control. On the Branson cruise is an electromagnet that holds the HST pedal in place.

 

[WVH1977]

I believe you should be able to maintain the ATV trails with a chainsaw, bush axe and a 4wd ATV. I would be more concerned about maintaining the road and getting the right piece of equipment for that purpose. In my mind a good access road into a property of that size is way more important than the ATV trails.

I am also in the same camp about getting a good used industrial piece of equipment to maintain the road, especially if you need to work in the ditches and on culverts. Once you get all the heavy work done you can always sell the industrial equipment and purchase a tractor for regular maintenance or keep it and buy a good used tractor to go along with it. I have several friends that own 100 plus acres of land. Almost all of them have an older dedicated back-hoe, dozer or an industrial size tractor for big jobs that pop up coupled with an older 2wd farm tractor for regular maintenance (bush hogging, grading, tilling, etc.).

I believe you will eventually come to the right conclusion and any type of tractor or piece of equipment you choose is going to make your life better and easier. Enjoy that property. Lots of folks would love to have several hundred acres to play on.

 

[houska]

Well, we have pulled the trigger on a Branson 4225h with loader, backhoe, and grapple. To be delivered in April. Thanks for all the advice in this thread.

Both the Branson and a Kubota L4060 would have fit the bill, and -- in our neck of the woods -- were priced similarly. The Branson led on specs that mattered, but even more important was dealer.

The Branson dealer is en route between our home and the property we'll use the tractor on. Knowledgeable guy, 20 years selling Bransons, repair shop where techs get their hands dirty really fixing stuff. Was much happier showing me what custom mods they had figured out for a disabled fellow to be able to use a backhoe that going over paperwork in his messy office. Together with the "do things mechanically" philosophy of the Branson design, this inspired confidence for the long term. Kubota dealer also good guy, long-term dealer, but his gleaming glass-wall dealership is an hour in the wrong direction, and philosophy is much more "when there's a problem, we'll swap out the electronics with a replacement so you're quickly on your way". That's convenient when you're under warranty, but smells of $$ afterwards and who knows what happens when your model is 10 years old. The Branson dealer did a better job explaining to me what's special about Kubota's HST+ than the Kubota dealer, who pointed me at their marketing material for "details" since he clearly didn't know. Bottom line at Kubota was "we're the market leader so we're clearly good, we don't need to sell too much".

Kioti and LS had tractors which weren't bad, but seemed (on paper) less a good fit. Their dealers struck out their at bats by not having the appropriate models in stock to see and touch, and more importantly by bad selling. The Kioti dealer decided within 5 minutes his "best selling tractor" (even if he didn't have any in stock...) was the answer for me, and was utterly impervious to gentle prods that I had (based on suggestions here, in part) been thinking of something quite different. The LS dealer offered a good price, but tried selling by putting down other brands with information I knew from my research was factually incorrect. Since both dealers weren't conveniently located either, really no reason to keep them in the mix.

Looking forward to doing stuff in the spring!

(By the way, I appreciated all the feedback above also on what to do myself vs outsource, tractor vs ATV vs miniex etc. I didn't reply to all of it directly, and some of it just reflected differences how people interpreted my description of our needs. But it all helped in our thinking, including just helping us become clearer on what we do and don't want to do right off the bat!)