Newbie needs tractor advice.

[Bludrok]

Hi Guys,

I am here because I am going to be buying a tractor for my property. 5 acres near Sacramento, California. The ground is VERY hard here in the summer, but I can do my non-emergency ground work in the spring when it is considerably softer. I have lots of trees and flat ground. In addition, I have 2 relatives that have an acre of land each that may end up using the tractor here and there.

I plan on using it for the following tasks:

Mow roughly 4 acres of land that is not landscaped using either a flail mower w/hydraulic slide or RC/Finish mower. Please feel free to give your opinion on which is the better route.

Leveling/grading work as needed around the property.

Dig trenches for new septic / french drains.

Dig 36" dry wells as needed for septic / french drains. These are usually 25' deep.

Use a loader mounted Stump grinder.

I want the ability to use skid steer attachments via the front loader.

Occasionally, it would double as a forklift. I already own a forklift, but sometimes it is off site and not available.

I will be building a large warehouse, with an office and bathroom, which will need its own separate septic system. In addition, I would like to have a french drain to manage the rain and water drainage around the property. Hence the reason for the trenches / dry wells.



I am looking at an LS XR4155H with the upgraded LB3104 Back Hoe.

For the dry wells, I would use a loader mounted post hole digger, such as the McMillan x1975, with a hydraulic power pack attached to the Rear PTO. I may end up putting one together myself, but right now I am looking at the Loftness HPP25C.



I have a quote for $28,500 for the tractor and an additional $6000 for the back hoe delivered. While I do not mind spending the money for a good machine, I do not want to waste money just because.


Here are my questions:

1. Is this a good setup for what I want to do? Is there a better setup in your opinion?

2a. Do I need the 55hp model?
2b. Would the 40,45 or 50hp models do what I want?
2c. Since they are all the same engine, does having the higher HP model put more wear on the engine? If so, does it matter?

3a. Is there a better way to go about using skid steer attachments other than a Hydraulic power pack? They run about $6000 from what I have found.
3b. Could I possibly upgrade the existing pump?

3. What is your opinion of LS tractors in terms of reliability?

4. Is this a good deal? I don't really care about brand, but I do want reliability. Is there a better bang for my buck?

Feel free to give me any other thoughts on the setup.

 

[Diggin It]

A lot of us like LS, but I don't believe you'll want to dig a 25 foot deep hole with any tractor mounted backhoe. That will take an excavator.

 

[TheMadOne]

LS tractors are fine machines, but I really think you should hire out the septic work. That's the kind of thing that, if improperly done the first time, can be catastrophic to deal with later.

Also there's not a tractor attachment I'm aware of that will dig a 25ft deep hole. The McMillion you referenced is just a skid steer post hole digger, which if you get a tractor you can get a PTO driven one.

 

[Bludrok]

LS tractors are fine machines, but I really think you should hire out the septic work. That's the kind of thing that, if improperly done the first time, can be catastrophic to deal with later.

I am very familiar with plumbing and septic systems. They are actually incredibly simple, the only hard part is because of the hard pan soil where I am at, the county requires either sumps, or pits at the end of the leach lines.

Also there's not a tractor attachment I'm aware of that will dig a 25ft deep hole. The McMillion you referenced is just a skid steer post hole digger, which if you get a tractor you can get a PTO driven one.

You can add extensions to continue deeper. It is a long slow process, because you have to dig a couple of feet and then remove it all to get the dirt out. What I will do is weld a small bracket to each extension. When I raise it I can put a bar through that bracket to hold it up while I remove each extension. Once I have it high enough to remove the dirt then I put the extensions back on and repeat. It is the same as digging a 36" deep hole, just more tedious. I've seen it done with Skid Steers.

To hire the work out is nearly $2000 per dry well, including the rock.

I do not want a 3pt digger, because as I said before the ground is very hard here. I need to be able to put down pressure on the digger.

 

[TheMadOne]

I am very familiar with plumbing and septic systems. They are actually incredibly simple, the only hard part is because of the hard pan soil where I am at, the county requires either sumps, or pits at the end of the leach lines.



You can add extensions to continue deeper. It is a long slow process, because you have to dig a couple of feet and then remove it all to get the dirt out. What I will do is weld a small bracket to each extension. When I raise it I can put a bar through that bracket to hold it up while I remove each extension. Once I have it high enough to remove the dirt then I put the extensions back on and repeat. It is the same as digging a 36" deep hole, just more tedious. I've seen it done with Skid Steers.

To hire the work out is nearly $2000 per dry well, including the rock.

I do not want a 3pt digger, because as I said before the ground is very hard here. I need to be able to put down pressure on the digger.

Here's the thing, how long do you think each well will take? How many wells do you plan on digging?

You're already at all but $3K in the digger, plus the pump system you would need, figure another...$1,500-$2,000 for that, then another $1,800 for the auger, assuming you only need one. 72" extensions are $470 each and you'd need 4. So does it make sense to buy all this gear, plus the hours per hole you'd have to spend, or does it make more sense to hire the work done?

I mean, you're talking adding over $9,000 of single task equipment to your shed. That's not including the rock, or your time.

 

[Jchonline]

Here's the thing, how long do you think each well will take? How many wells do you plan on digging?

You're already at all but $3K in the digger, plus the pump system you would need, figure another...$1,500-$2,000 for that, then another $1,800 for the auger, assuming you only need one. 72" extensions are $470 each and you'd need 4. So does it make sense to buy all this gear, plus the hours per hole you'd have to spend, or does it make more sense to hire the work done?



I mean, you're talking adding over $9,000 of single task equipment to your shed. That's not including the rock, or your time.

I agree.

Can you just RENT a SS with high flow and an auger and take care of this?

If you want a FEL stump grinder, you will need a front PTO option because you wont have the hydraulic flow to power it on the LS XR.

If doubling as a forklift you may want to consider a self leveling loader (mechanical or hydraulic depending on tractor).

For flat land and tasks described, I dont think you need 55HP. 40 should be enough.

I would not recommend a hydraulic power pack. The best way to go about using SS attachments that require appropriate hydraulic flow is to get a SS. Could you also RENT one for these tasks and save the $$$ on a tractor mounted hydraulic pack?

Folks on these forums frequently speak highly of LS tractors. If you have a dealer that can provide expert and timely service in the area it seems like a good option.

 

[ericm979]

Being in Sacto you're within range of Dave's Tractors in Red Bluff. They're an excellent dealer. I bought my Branson from them.

Finish mowers are for lawns. Flails with fine cut or duck foot grass blades can mow lawns but the results won't be quite as pretty.
It's a lot wetter here but I won't drive my tractor on the lawn half the year as it'll compact the soil and leave ruts (I have R4 tires on the Branson). I mow the lawn with a lawn tractor/riding mower.

 

[3Lfarms]

A year and a half ago, I bought an LS 6168CPS with the backhoe. It’s 68hp, cabbed, power shuttle (CPS). I paid 32,500 for the tractor and another 7k for the backhoe. No tax and I picked it up. About $10-15K less than green or orange for comparable machines.

It’s was (and I think still is) the largest tractor LS offers with the backhoe as an option. It will dig down to just over 8’. It digs in my hard clay very well and It will be used to dig a septic system on the homestead. It has already dug 1k feet of trench for water lines. No problems. It is not as fast as an excavator, but it’s always ready when I go out there and I don’t have to bother with spending my whole weekend going to town and renting a machine every time I need to dig a hole or a trench. I do have a locked building on site to store it and all attachments.

The reason I suggest the larger machine, is the hydraulic flow is 10gpm which is right on the cusp of being able to run a hydraulic auger. From what I’ve seen, some hydraulic post hole diggers spec 10gpm as the minimum. If you could save buying a PTO power pack, that would about cover the cost of buying the bigger machine. It also has a self leveling loader, and it is pretty great when using pallet forks.
It’s not terribly agile weighing in at about 7500lbs with the loader and backhoe on without any ballasting. It’s more than one needs for 5 acres and if your property is not heavily forested, it could work. I assume you have valley oaks. Usually they are not very close together, just big with a big canopy.
As far as the LS brand, you can pay more, but I don’t think you will see much return on the extra expense of green or orange machines. I haven’t had a single problem with my machine. My advice is buy from a good dealer. LS as a brand is still new-ish, so dealer’s are small and don’t have huge service depts. LS corporate has been taking care of customers though. There are a couple threads right now about where dealers sent customers parts under warranty and the owner does the work vs having to haul it to the dealer. My dealer and I agreed to do the same since I am a mechanic by trade and am about 3 hours away. If a tractor has an electronic problem, he mails the diagnostic tool to the customer to use and then sends parts as necessary to get customers back up and running.
I wouldn’t worry about wearing out the engine. LS makes their own engine (except for the smallest subcompact model) and I cant remember ever hearing of one failing.

 

[cathy liebchen]

I would hire out all that digging, no tractor is going to be up to that task

 

[Bludrok]

First, I want to thank all of you for taking the time to respond. I want to address each of the points brought up, and I apologize in advance if it comes across wrong. It is not meant to.

Here's the thing, how long do you think each well will take? How many wells do you plan on digging?

I figure I could do 2 in a day easily, probably more but I wanted to err on the side of caution. I have an immediate need for 7 dry wells, but If I have the equipment to do it myself, it will probably be more like 10-15.

You're already at all but $3K in the digger, plus the pump system you would need, figure another...$1,500-$2,000 for that, then another $1,800 for the auger, assuming you only need one. 72" extensions are $470 each and you'd need 4. So does it make sense to buy all this gear, plus the hours per hole you'd have to spend, or does it make more sense to hire the work done?
I mean, you're talking adding over $9,000 of single task equipment to your shed. That's not including the rock, or your time.

Even if I just put in the minimum # of dry wells I am looking for, the cost to hire out each well is about $1500 without the rock. That is over $10,000 to hire out. Add to this the fact that since I own the equipment to do it, I would put it more, and you can see why it makes sense to purchase it myself. As far as the hours, I don't mind spending time working on my property. I like coming to the end of a job and knowing I did it myself.

I agree.
Can you just RENT a SS with high flow and an auger and take care of this?

Sure I could, but I am trying to purchase the equipment, not rent. I could also rent a tractor a few times a year and spend a lot less than the 50 grand I am looking at investing in one. However, as I said above, when I own the equipment, I will do more work than if I did not. I have already made the decision to purchase either a tractor or an SS, now it is just a matter of research to ensure I end up with what I want.

If you want a FEL stump grinder, you will need a front PTO option because you wont have the hydraulic flow to power it on the LS XR.

That is why I said I would be purchasing a rear PTO Hydraulic Power unit.

If doubling as a forklift you may want to consider a self leveling loader (mechanical or hydraulic depending on tractor).

Is there a way to upgrade the tractor/loader I listed to self-leveling? It is an option I would prefer. However, I already own a forklift so using the tractor as a forklift is just an added convenience.

I would not recommend a hydraulic power pack. The best way to go about using SS attachments that require appropriate hydraulic flow is to get a SS. Could you also RENT one for these tasks and save the $$$ on a tractor mounted hydraulic pack?

May I ask why you do not recommend going with a hydraulic power pack? Is there some inherent downside to using a power pack? I look at is as giving me the versatility of having an SS, without having to invest in 2 machines. If it is just cost, the cost of a power pack is certainly cheaper than the cost of an SS. As I mentioned before, I am not looking to rent.

Folks on these forums frequently speak highly of LS tractors. If you have a dealer that can provide expert and timely service in the area it seems like a good option.

That seems to be the consensus. I do have an LS Dealer within about 30 minutes of me and I already own a trailer that I use to move my forklift so I can transport it easily If need be.

Being in Sacto you're within range of Dave's Tractors in Red Bluff. They're an excellent dealer. I bought my Branson from them.

Yes, I am. I will give them a call, thank you. I actually have employees that go to Red Bluff for service calls on a regular basis.

Finish mowers are for lawns. Flails with fine cut or duck foot grass blades can mow lawns but the results won't be quite as pretty.
It's a lot wetter here but I won't drive my tractor on the lawn half the year as it'll compact the soil and leave ruts (I have R4 tires on the Branson). I mow the lawn with a lawn tractor/riding mower.

I'm sorry, I didn't make it totally clear from my original post, this is only for the unlandscaped portion of the property, not my lawn. I have about 1 acre of lawn that my son mows with a riding lawn mower. That will likely stay the same.

A year and a half ago, I bought an LS 6168CPS with the backhoe. It痴 68hp, cabbed, power shuttle (CPS). I paid 32,500 for the tractor and another 7k for the backhoe. No tax and I picked it up. About $10-15K less than green or orange for comparable machines.
It痴 was (and I think still is) the largest tractor LS offers with the backhoe as an option. It will dig down to just over 8? It digs in my hard clay very well and It will be used to dig a septic system on the homestead. It has already dug 1k feet of trench for water lines. No problems. It is not as fast as an excavator, but it痴 always ready when I go out there and I don稚 have to bother with spending my whole weekend going to town and renting a machine every time I need to dig a hole or a trench. I do have a locked building on site to store it and all attachments.
The reason I suggest the larger machine, is the hydraulic flow is 10gpm which is right on the cusp of being able to run a hydraulic auger. From what I致e seen, some hydraulic post hole diggers spec 10gpm as the minimum. If you could save buying a PTO power pack, that would about cover the cost of buying the bigger machine. It also has a self leveling loader, and it is pretty great when using pallet forks.
It痴 not terribly agile weighing in at about 7500lbs with the loader and backhoe on without any ballasting. It痴 more than one needs for 5 acres and if your property is not heavily forested, it could work. I assume you have valley oaks. Usually they are not very close together, just big with a big canopy.

I will investigate this, but I think the minimum flow I am looking for is 15GPM. There is a wide variety of SS attachments that I would like the possibility to use in the future. Either way, I appreciate your advice.

As far as the LS brand, you can pay more, but I don稚 think you will see much return on the extra expense of green or orange machines. I haven稚 had a single problem with my machine. My advice is buy from a good dealer. LS as a brand is still new-ish, so dealer痴 are small and don稚 have huge service depts. LS corporate has been taking care of customers though. There are a couple threads right now about where dealers sent customers parts under warranty and the owner does the work vs having to haul it to the dealer. My dealer and I agreed to do the same since I am a mechanic by trade and am about 3 hours away. If a tractor has an electronic problem, he mails the diagnostic tool to the customer to use and then sends parts as necessary to get customers back up and running.
I wouldn稚 worry about wearing out the engine. LS makes their own engine (except for the smallest subcompact model) and I cant remember ever hearing of one failing.

Thank you, this is exactly the type of information I was looking for.

I would hire out all that digging, no tractor is going to be up to that task

Care to elaborate? With the setup I mentioned, all the tractor has to do is run a hydraulic pump from the rear PTO and possibly a 12v cooler with a little down pressure from the loader as needed.

 

[Diggin It]

You mentioned the ground is very hard. I don't have experience with PHDs, but from the threads here, it's been said they can easily get stuck, screwing themselves into the ground in ways that it becomes extremely difficult to get them back out. My ground is basically densely packed red rock gravel. While digging a county water line a few years back, a full size trackhoe had a lot of trouble digging across my lot. They almost stood the thing up on the nose more than once. And they were only going 3-4 feet in most areas, 5-6 in a few.

With my little BH, I was able to dig out a few three stumps last fall while that same ground was still hard, but it took me quite a while to do each one.

I think you may be vastly underestimating the task of drilling those holes.

 

[Bludrok]

You mentioned the ground is very hard. I don't have experience with PHDs, but from the threads here, it's been said they can easily get stuck, screwing themselves into the ground in ways that it becomes extremely difficult to get them back out. My ground is basically densely packed red rock gravel. While digging a county water line a few years back, a full size trackhoe had a lot of trouble digging across my lot. They almost stood the thing up on the nose more than once. And they were only going 3-4 feet in most areas, 5-6 in a few.

With my little BH, I was able to dig out a few three stumps last fall while that same ground was still hard, but it took me quite a while to do each one.

I think you may be vastly underestimating the task of drilling those holes.

Possibly. But that is why I will only do it in the spring, when my property is basically a swamp. If I discover it is too much, then I will just use smaller holes, and more of them. I would only be out the cost of the 36" Auger, which I can sell.

Edit - I also wanted to add that I have clay soil, no rocks or anything near as hard as what you were dealing with.

 

[Jchonline]

Bludrok,

No offense taken! You of course know for everything but farming, the tractor is a machine of compromises. Hydraulic packs to me are too big of a compromise. Few I have seen on these forums use them, but maybe you can find some with good experiences. Another motor to break, a bunch of extra hoses to get caught on things, plumbing for remote valves in addition to those on the tractor, still only getting 20 ish gpm with the pack. If you need the flow, then get a machine that has the flow outright...at least that is my opinion.

 

[Jchonline]

Possibly. But that is why I will only do it in the spring, when my property is basically a swamp. If I discover it is too much, then I will just use smaller holes, and more of them. I would only be out the cost of the 36" Auger, which I can sell.

Edit - I also wanted to add that I have clay soil, no rocks or anything near as hard as what you were dealing with.

Implements are usually sold at a significant loss based on my experience.

if you are digging down 25', once you start adding extensions how are you getting the turned dirt out of the hole? Will the auger still even turn with 15' of soil weighing it down?

 

[GSVette]

I have the XR4155HC and spin an older JD hydraulic 3 point auger w/ a 12” and 9” diameter drills.

My experience thus far is that the hydraulic flow at the rear remotes is adequate but the 12” cutter is probably the largest I would spin. The lack of significant downforce also limits me a bit but I wouldn’t have anything other than a hydraulic auger ( if only because I can reverse it).

To your dilemma-with the size auger you’re wanting to spin combined with the depth you want to dig, I completely understand your need for a power pack. I have spun that size auger using a skid steer in digging the post holes for my pole barn. It made me really appreciate the flow requirements but also the forces applied by that size auger to the skid steer itself. I’d be a bit concerned with those forces being applied to the loader arms on my LS plus I can only imagine how much a 36” auger would throw my tractor about.

Good luck-sounds like an interesting challenge.

 

[Bludrok]

Bludrok,

No offense taken! You of course know for everything but farming, the tractor is a machine of compromises. Hydraulic packs to me are too big of a compromise. Few I have seen on these forums use them, but maybe you can find some with good experiences. Another motor to break, a bunch of extra hoses to get caught on things, plumbing for remote valves in addition to those on the tractor, still only getting 20 ish gpm with the pack. If you need the flow, then get a machine that has the flow outright...at least that is my opinion.

Is there a tractor that meets those requirements? The only thing I found is in the 100HP class, which is a lot more machine than I need.

Implements are usually sold at a significant loss based on my experience.

if you are digging down 25', once you start adding extensions how are you getting the turned dirt out of the hole? Will the auger still even turn with 15' of soil weighing it down?

I won't ever have 15' of dirt on the auger. The auger I would use has a 4' flight, so you dig 3' down and then lift the auger all the way to the top and clear the dirt and go again for another 3'.

Once you get too deep for the loader arms to lift it in one pass, you use the small bracket I was saying I would weld to each extension. What you do is lift the auger as much as you can, put an iron bar through the welded bracket and let the iron bar hold up the auger. Then remove the extensions above that point and reattach. Rinse and repeat until you are all the way at the top and can clear the dirt.

Using this method, the 25' deep hole is dug just like you were only digging a 3' hole, just a longer and more tedious process.

I have the XR4155HC and spin an older JD hydraulic 3 point auger w/ a 12 and 9 diameter drills.

My experience thus far is that the hydraulic flow at the rear remotes is adequate but the 12 cutter is probably the largest I would spin. The lack of significant downforce also limits me a bit but I wouldn稚 have anything other than a hydraulic auger ( if only because I can reverse it).

To your dilemma-with the size auger you?*e wanting to spin combined with the depth you want to dig, I completely understand your need for a power pack. I have spun that size auger using a skid steer in digging the post holes for my pole barn. It made me really appreciate the flow requirements but also the forces applied by that size auger to the skid steer itself. I壇 be a bit concerned with those forces being applied to the loader arms on my LS plus I can only imagine how much a 36 auger would throw my tractor about.

Good luck-sounds like an interesting challenge.

Definitely something to watch out for. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Jchonline]

Blue, no I havent seen one. There is a reason...People that need hydraulic flow just go to SS. My construction grade TLB (63HP) has 16 gpm out the front for implements. That may still not be enough for your auger. I wonder if you can rent a power pack? I hate renting and using other peoples fluids in my machine but sometimes you dont have a choice.

Listen I am not arguing, you can of course do whatever you wish with your money. Your best decision will come from taking in all of the information you can, then deciding based on your situation.

 

[Diggin It]

I won't ever have 15' of dirt on the auger. The auger I would use has a 4' flight, so you dig 3' down and then lift the auger all the way to the top and clear the dirt and go again for another 3'.

Once you get too deep for the loader arms to lift it in one pass, you use the small bracket I was saying I would weld to each extension. What you do is lift the auger as much as you can, put an iron bar through the welded bracket and let the iron bar hold up the auger. Then remove the extensions above that point and reattach. Rinse and repeat until you are all the way at the top and can clear the dirt.

Using this method, the 25' deep hole is dug just like you were only digging a 3' hole, just a longer and more tedious process.

So, you're planning on assembling and disassembling multiple sections of auger shaft several times for each hole? And lifting the entire assembly into and out of each hole several times?

Again, I've never used any PHD at all, but doesn't each extension add stress and reduce capability somewhat? How would you break it loose if it got stuck at 20'?

I try to do most everything by myself, I still think I'd hire a well driller rig. There are some things I just don't think I'd be willing to try without experience.

 

[TheMadOne]

Blue, no I havent seen one. There is a reason...People that need hydraulic flow just go to SS. My construction grade TLB (63HP) has 16 gpm out the front for implements. That may still not be enough for your auger. I wonder if you can rent a power pack? I hate renting and using other peoples fluids in my machine but sometimes you dont have a choice.

Listen I am not arguing, you can of course do whatever you wish with your money. Your best decision will come from taking in all of the information you can, then deciding based on your situation.

I agree with this. At the end of the day it's your money, but I, and several others, don't think a tractor is the correct tool for the job with those holes. I also worry about hanging the auger so far down from the loader. That's a lot of torque and a long lever.

 

[Bludrok]

So, you're planning on assembling and disassembling multiple sections of auger shaft several times for each hole? And lifting the entire assembly into and out of each hole several times?

Again, I've never used any PHD at all, but doesn't each extension add stress and reduce capability somewhat? How would you break it loose if it got stuck at 20'?

I try to do most everything by myself, I still think I'd hire a well driller rig. There are some things I just don't think I'd be willing to try without experience.

Yes, for each hole I would have to assemble and disassemble several times, which is why I said I am planning on 1 hole taking half a day. Probably longer for the first one, because I will take everything nice and slow to make sure nothing goes wrong.

I am not an engineer, but I do agree that each extension would add some stress and slightly reduce capability. If it gets stuck, the McMillan Auger that I am looking at can rotate backwards to back it out of the hole.

I have roughly 3000' of fencing that I will be installing within the next 3 years so even if I discover the machine cant do the dry wells I am looking at, I would only be out the cost of the 36" Auger Bit, so I am at least going to give it a shot.