Comparison Tier IV Questions For Messicks

[MessickFarmEqu]

All the talk about fuel here misses one important point. These tractors are all using electronic fuel injection, not mechanical. Fuel is delivered for the needed load, its not linear fuel delivery any more. It takes very little fuel just to spin the cylinders, so the higher engine RPM in and of itself does not lead to significantly higher fuel usage.

As we went through all these Tiers, Tier 3 really had the engine detuned and choked to take care of NOX (PM was much higher at this point). Going to Tier 4 actually improved fuel usage as DPF and DEF systems are after treatment and they can tune the engines much more freely (DOC only is different, as it needs EGR).

 

[majorwager]

Messick Rep,

Confused here, Are you stating kubota Does NOT use EGR in conjunction w/ DPF? There is also Tier 3 confusion. A chart showed Tier 3 only appliable to +75 hp. My dealer called my MX 5100, a Tier 3 tractor?

Even w/ electronic fuel delivery providing greater efficiency, can't dispute the higher RPM's requires more fuel than lower engine speed, Did I misunderstand your post meaning?

 

[JerryK]

I'm popping a big batch of popcorn .........

 

[Turbys_1700]

I've been averaging a little under 3 gallons per hour pulling a 10 foot Bush Hog in thick head high Johnson Grass and lush fescue with my Tier 3 T4.75 New Holland. Run it in 4th gear 2nd range at 5.8 MPH. I wonder how much more efficient a Tier 4 unit would be over my Tier 3. So far I have no complaints.

 

[rngrrymd]

I've been averaging a little under 3 gallons per hour pulling a 10 foot Bush Hog in thick head high Johnson Grass and lush fescue with my Tier 3 T4.75 New Holland. Run it in 4th gear 2nd range at 5.8 MPH. I wonder how much more efficient a Tier 4 unit would be over my Tier 3. So far I have no complaints.

One of these days I'll let you know..... :mur:

 

[Mike Madison]

There are some new technologies on the horizon for diesel engines with much better fuel efficiency as well as much lower emissions. These are the two-stroke diesel opposing piston engines (3 cylinders, 6 pistons, 2 crankshafts, no head), such as the Achates engine. I heard a rumor that Ford was looking into replacing power-stroke diesel with these.

 

[majorwager]

Mike,
Detroit offered two stroke diesels in the 71 series years ago. I owned three. Lots of shifting, engines screamed, but output was strong through
Upper RPM limits. Fuel economy was very good.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Messick Rep,

Confused here, Are you stating kubota Does NOT use EGR in conjunction w/ DPF? There is also Tier 3 confusion. A chart showed Tier 3 only appliable to +75 hp. My dealer called my MX 5100, a Tier 3 tractor?

Even w/ electronic fuel delivery providing greater efficiency, can't dispute the higher RPM's requires more fuel than lower engine speed, Did I misunderstand your post meaning?

Correct, if you have a DPF you don't need EGR (can't say there is not an exception out there somewhere). Yes, an MX5100 is tier 3 (current MX5200 is tier 4)

Higher RPM would take more fuel.. I did not say that it would not. My point was though that its not as much as you would think given its not a linear mechanical fuel pump, and with the efficiency bump from some of the prior tiers any real impact should be questionable. Like many things, this is a bench test explanation.. your results may vary.

 

[jaydee325]

Correct me if l’m wrong, I believe the MX5100 was Tier 4 Interim. There were no sub 70hp that were Tier 3 unless the manufacturer used one of the confusing options allowed.

 

[daugen]

I admit I'm now really confused about my 2011 MF 2615. Unless TractorData is wrong they show my Simpson engine as being Tier 2, not 3.
How is that possible? I thought the switch over date was at least three years before that. No wonder it has a smell...but a fine tractor.
Sometimes Tractor Data shows the tier level, sometimes it doesn't.

Is there a federally mandated tag somewhere on the tractor that states exactly what tier level that engine is built to?
I still see some "last of the non DEF" marketing going on, I assume on leftovers. If I read Messick's right, perhaps the very last one before Tier 4 final might not be the best one.

I'm waiting for an electric tractor so we don't have all this nonsense to distract us, and maybe we'll get magnetic attraction
for implement hookup, how about some real high tech we can use?

I see those giant tractors with even larger exhaust stacks, I wonder how they can see around them.
Pretty soon we'll need live cameras because we can't see around the emissions equipment...
I also wonder if there are any you tube videos of the whole catalytic converter or combustion chamber or whatever it is going up in flames.
Plenty of annoyed videos about regeneration though.

 

[jeff9366]

I admit I'm now really confused about my 2011 MF 2615. Unless TractorData is wrong they show my Simpson engine as being Tier 2, not 3.
How is that possible? I thought the switch over date was at least three years before that. No wonder it has a smell...but a fine tractor.

See Post #53.

 

[daugen]

See Post #53.

I did, thanks, and it confirms (?) 2008 as last date for Tier II, and I have a 49hp 20011 Massey with Tier II. So three model years later,
Massey is still importing Indian tractors with older emissions ratings. Just wondering how they did that, unless tractordata is wrong about the Tier level.

I bushhogged for hours yesterday on that tractor and forgot to look for an emissions plate or sticker. Will look today.

Is there a Goldilocks year where emissions were really lowered and mechanical issues were still simple?

 

[jeff9366]

I did, thanks, and it confirms (?) 2008 as last date for Tier II, and I have a 49hp 20011 Massey with Tier II. So three model years later.

"Each tier involved a phase-in (by engine power) over several years. Tier 1 standards phased-in from 1996 to 2000. Tier 2 standards phased-in from 2001 to 2006. Tier 3 standards phased-in from 2006 to 2008 (Tier 3 standards applied only for engines from 37-560 kW)."


49 horsepower = 36.5 kW, so Tier 2 emission standards apply, not Tier 3. Your tractor is under, BARELY UNDER, the 37 kW demarcation.

LINK TO CONVERSION: hp to kW conversion - Google Search

 

[Turbys_1700]

Some manufacturers stock piled engines under the previous tier classifications and had those to use in tractors for several years. As long as those engines were made to the tier specification for that specific year they were OK. Some overlap of those engines and years are a result.

 

[Turbys_1700]

Just to digress a bit...
I find it quite amusing that after we spend 30 to 50 thousand on a tractor we are discussing the possible fuel efficiency of tier 3 vs tier 4 as if using 3 GPH versus 2.8 GPH is a big deal...
Also find it interesting that tier 3 tractors were de-tuned...
How much were they de-tuned?
If my tractor is rated at 75 HP and is tier 3 and another tier 4 tractor is 75 HP and another 1970's non emissions tractor is rated 75 HP...
What was the tier 3 de-tuned to?
Not being argumentative...
Just wanting to know the difference...

 

[jeff9366]

Some manufacturers stock piled engines under the previous tier classifications and had those to use in tractors for several years. As long as those engines were made to the tier specification for that specific year they were OK.

With competition forcing manufacturers into just-in-time components delivery throughout the supplier chain it is difficult for me to believe: "Some manufacturers stock piled engines under the previous tier classifications and had those to use in tractors for several years." Stock piling finished goods inventory is what sinks businesses when unpredictable contractions in demand occur, such as 2008 - 2012. Engines are the most expensive of tractor major components.

Japanese manufacturers were the first to implement just-in-time manufacturing during the 1970s.

Simply not reality today, nor fifteen years ago.

My observation was that popular models sold out quickly, while less popular models and unpopular models with less complex emission controls lingered on dealer lots. ( compact tractors without FELs, left-leg clutch & gear tractors, minimum horsepower models, etc.)

Some waited for Tier IV to buy, myself included. In considering retirement location clean air was, and is, my top priority. No surprise cleaner exhaust was a positive to me. Kubota dealer also kept me informed on three additional horsepower in my model and lower fueling point. To me, the significant upgrades that came on my model with Tier IV are worth $4,000.

No tractor engine that I know of lost horsepower as engines changed to meet Tier IV requirements. Most increased in horsepower with direct injection. At least in Kubota, where an optional five horsepower increase costs $3,000 or so today, that partly compensated for Tier IV cost increase, which was REAL.

All should spend their hard earned dollars as they wish.

 

[Turbys_1700]

Engine manufacturers ramp up production to make a lot of engines prior to new EPA regulations coming into effect...
I know folks that work in the industry...
A local Freightliner plant owned by Mercedes has employment fluctuations that correspond with EPA tier regulations that come into effect...
That is a fact...
Not nonsense spouted off by someone with a doctorate in keyboard horse manure...

 

[majorwager]

Turbys,
Certain members who claim knowledge in the engine emission indusry, merely draw upon their vast knowledge as a wine salesman. Same folks, really only one, that repeatedly piggybacks the information generated by Tractor Data. Com as if they had even the slightest input in that website creation.

Same correlation applies to the member w/ 2 contiguous lots in subdivision, offering comprehensive advice concerning the management of vast acreage parcels.

Search engines can be a valuable tool, however they can also present a nuisance when employed by someone with absolutely NO practical knowledge of a subject, but merely parrots the remarks of a author who penned the original article.

Turbys, your input appears grounded in direct exposure to the facts. Laughable that someone so concerned w/ clean air would deliberately pollute the forum w/ regurgitated nonsense.

 

[Oldoak]

Not nonsense spouted off by someone with a doctorate in keyboard horse manure...

:laughing:

Which many threads deteriorate to when they run long enough.

 

[majorwager]

With competition forcing manufacturers into just-in-time components delivery throughout the supplier chain it is difficult for me to believe: "Some manufacturers stock piled engines under the previous tier classifications and had those to use in tractors for several years." Stock piling finished goods inventory is what sinks businesses when unpredictable contractions in demand occur, such as 2008 - 2012. Engines are the most expensive of tractor major components.

Japanese manufacturers were the first to implement just-in-time manufacturing during the 1970s.

Simply not reality today, nor fifteen years ago.

My observation was that popular models sold out quickly, while less popular models and unpopular models with less complex emission controls lingered on dealer lots. ( compact tractors without FELs, left-leg clutch & gear tractors, minimum horsepower models, etc.)

Some waited for Tier IV to buy, myself included. In considering retirement location clean air was, and is, my top priority. No surprise cleaner exhaust was a positive to me. Kubota dealer also kept me informed on three additional horsepower in my model and lower fueling point. To me, the significant upgrades that came on my model with Tier IV are worth $4,000.

No tractor engine that I know of lost horsepower as engines changed to meet Tier IV requirements. Most increased in horsepower with direct injection. At least in Kubota, where an optional five horsepower increase costs $3,000 or so today, that partly compensated for Tier IV cost increase, which was REAL.

All should spend their hard earned dollars as they wish.

I Seek two scientifically proven statistics, delivered by a respected and reputable source.

First: That Non- Tier 4 final tractors languished on dealer lots (across the country) for lack of the most strigent pollution fighting equipment.

Secondly: That any volume of buyers POSTPONED their tractor purchase so they could bask and relish in the benefits of newly contrived
" Guinea Pig" emissions attachments.


It is entirely feasible that an engine mfg might ramp up production prior to an increase in emission equipment
regulations. This would be outside the just in time delivery manufacturing concept. Inventoried engines exempt from forthcoming revisions.