When to use four wheel drive?

[ovrszd]

Greggyy,

I think your question misses a key 3rd choice -

3. that part of tbn members - perceive a far different user mix than TBN has.

10 years ago there were far fewer scut owners on TBN - and today there are significantly more. But its not just the tractor size that makes the difference - but the reason they have the size they do. Scut owners are far more likely to have small acreage and use their units far differently than the more hobby or mid sized farm needs of prior TBN posters. That difference in land location and type is substantially varied from traditional hobby farm land. While I have a total of about 4 acres contiguous - I don't have more than 150 feet I can go on relatively flat land - everything else is slopes and sidehills and most are steep pitches. I have another 1 acre of lawn 2 miles away that is flat - but I certainly don't transport my scut there each week as it isn't worth the effort - and that is just lawn that gets cut with an aging lawn tractor.

So during normal seasons - my scut is either mowing or digging or log moving or hauling items on primarily hills where 4wd is absolutely needed. And in winter I'm plowing or snow removing on a large long steep concrete driveway and sidewalks - again in 4wd.

But I think there are a quantity of tbn posters who can't imagine that there are very many like me - and they still think in terms of 15 to 60 acres of land with much of it flat or near flat and a tractor in the mid to large compact sizing ranges.

As another example - my scut is certainly not awd - however I'm in 4wd (front wheel assist if you require the phrase) - but neither I or anyone else could tell on lawn or dirt or gravel - that my steering is altered in any way from 2wd. Only on dry concrete or dry blacktop can you "sense" a different sound in 4wd to 2wd - and in no way does it alter the turning ease and turning circle. Maybe larger compact tractors and older equipment is stiffer steering in 4wd compared to 2wd - but I've never ridden on any that are even though I know my neighbor's jd x728 lawn tractor is stiffer in 4wd.

My point greggyy, is that I think older or larger tractor owners assume alot about smaller tractor owners and believe those small unit owners have less awareness in their opinions - or maybe less skill in their decisions. My point is I think it is just the opposite too often - that larger tractor owners or land owners maybe don't recognize how much things have changed in tractor ownership in the last 6 to 8 years. If I had 30 acres and a Massey 1700 series unit instead of 4 acres and a Massey GC1715 - I'd have more flat land and easy rolling land to use 2wd for. I might have a lot of tilling to do or pasture land maintenance or rebuilding. The number of scut tractors and small frame compact tractors (like Kubota's B series etc.) are outselling percentage wise each year these last 6 or so years especially - and its because of their land locations and land sizes and because they are often in areas once were rolling farm land that now is subdivided for homes with 1 to several acres with far less flat land percentages and more hills and challenging landscapes and woods issues.

I live very close to many farms who would rarely need 4wd - but I live in areas right next to me that ALL need 4wd.

JMHO

I challenge you to a test. With your scut in 2wd, turn the steering one direction to full turn, drive forward for 2 or 3 complete circles so you can see and mark the inside diameter of the circle, stop and mark it. Now engage 4wd and make 2 or 3 more complete circles. Can you stay in the same tracks?

If your turning circle grows that's called "push". Your back tires are out running the fronts and pushing the front out of the circle.

If the circle remains the same diameter with no sign of push the front ratio is different enough to compensate for the different ground distance being covered. If you have this condition you will have severe "pull" when going straight.

I don't know of any SCUT, CUT or Utility class FWA tractor that doesn't display one of these "push" "pull" conditions. Thus, they are all binding and scuffing at some point.

Very high end AG class FWA tractors have the technology to vary the ratio dependent on degree of turn measured at the axis of the front axle knuckles. This allows them to make short turns at the end of the field without disengaging FWA.

 

[ruffdog]

I challenge you to a test. With your scut in 2wd, turn the steering one direction to full turn, drive forward for 2 or 3 complete circles so you can see and mark the inside diameter of the circle, stop and mark it. Now engage 4wd and make 2 or 3 more complete circles. Can you stay in the same tracks?

If your turning circle grows that's called "push". Your back tires are out running the fronts and pushing the front out of the circle.

If the circle remains the same diameter with no sign of push the front ratio is different enough to compensate for the different ground distance being covered. If you have this condition you will have severe "pull" when going straight.

I don't know of any SCUT, CUT or Utility class FWA tractor that doesn't display one of these "push" "pull" conditions. Thus, they are all binding and scuffing at some point.

Very high end AG class FWA tractors have the technology to vary the ratio dependent on degree of turn measured at the axis of the front axle knuckles. This allows them to make short turns at the end of the field without disengaging FWA.

I know my Boomer TC33D PUSHED to the point of just wanting to go straight. On real slick snow pack or ice, it steered much better in 2wd. In deep snow, of course 4x4 helped get through snow, but normally, I always kept it in 2wd unless needed. Most of the time I had just a rear blade on and no loader too.

 

[CincyFlyer]

I use mine when I need it; otherwise I can do nasty things to the turf.

 

[AxleHub]

I challenge you to a test. With your scut in 2wd, turn the steering one direction to full turn, drive forward for 2 or 3 complete circles so you can see and mark the inside diameter of the circle, stop and mark it. Now engage 4wd and make 2 or 3 more complete circles. Can you stay in the same tracks?

If your turning circle grows that's called "push". Your back tires are out running the fronts and pushing the front out of the circle.

If the circle remains the same diameter with no sign of push the front ratio is different enough to compensate for the different ground distance being covered. If you have this condition you will have severe "pull" when going straight.

I don't know of any SCUT, CUT or Utility class FWA tractor that doesn't display one of these "push" "pull" conditions. Thus, they are all binding and scuffing at some point.

Very high end AG class FWA tractors have the technology to vary the ratio dependent on degree of turn measured at the axis of the front axle knuckles. This allows them to make short turns at the end of the field without disengaging FWA.

Ovrszd,

I can't tell you what the result would be. . But it seems you tried to set up a challenge that "heads you're right" and "tails I'm wrong" because if I turn in the same size circle then "I'm pulling". So how do you prove I'm pulling? You seemed to assume correctness without anyway of verifying it.

Even more interesting is that I stated 4wd or 2wd didn't show a difference in how hard it was to steer on my tractor . . whereas many claim steering is much stiffer in 4wd drive than 2wd.

The subject statement was about stiffness and difficulty steering. . . while your challenge is about something completely different and with an assumed result that can't be verified.

Finally, just how many scuts have you driven in the last 4 model years to make such a bold statement. . 10 orv15 ?

 

[ovrszd]

Ovrszd,

I can't tell you what the result would be. . But it seems you tried to set up a challenge that "heads you're right" and "tails I'm wrong" because if I turn in the same size circle then "I'm pulling". So how do you prove I'm pulling? You seemed to assume correctness without anyway of verifying it.

Even more interesting is that I stated 4wd or 2wd didn't show a difference in how hard it was to steer on my tractor . . whereas many claim steering is much stiffer in 4wd drive than 2wd.

The subject statement was about stiffness and difficulty steering. . . while your challenge is about something completely different and with an assumed result that can't be verified.

Finally, just how many scuts have you driven in the last 4 model years to make such a bold statement. . 10 orv15 ?

I'll just answer one thing at a time.

It's very easy to tell us what the result is. Would take five minutes or less.

 

[ovrszd]

Ovrszd,

I can't tell you what the result would be. . But it seems you tried to set up a challenge that "heads you're right" and "tails I'm wrong" because if I turn in the same size circle then "I'm pulling". So how do you prove I'm pulling? You seemed to assume correctness without anyway of verifying it.

Even more interesting is that I stated 4wd or 2wd didn't show a difference in how hard it was to steer on my tractor . . whereas many claim steering is much stiffer in 4wd drive than 2wd.

The subject statement was about stiffness and difficulty steering. . . while your challenge is about something completely different and with an assumed result that can't be verified.

Finally, just how many scuts have you driven in the last 4 model years to make such a bold statement. . 10 orv15 ?

I didn't setup anything. Simply described a logistical scenario for you to verify that your SCUT turns the same, 2wd versus 4wd.

 

[ovrszd]

Ovrszd,

I can't tell you what the result would be. . But it seems you tried to set up a challenge that "heads you're right" and "tails I'm wrong" because if I turn in the same size circle then "I'm pulling". So how do you prove I'm pulling? You seemed to assume correctness without anyway of verifying it.

Even more interesting is that I stated 4wd or 2wd didn't show a difference in how hard it was to steer on my tractor . . whereas many claim steering is much stiffer in 4wd drive than 2wd.

The subject statement was about stiffness and difficulty steering. . . while your challenge is about something completely different and with an assumed result that can't be verified.

Finally, just how many scuts have you driven in the last 4 model years to make such a bold statement. . 10 orv15 ?

Yes, if u turn same circle you are pulling. And when you drive straight in 4wd you will bind/scuff dramatically. I don't have to prove this. You will honestly report your findings and confirm it.

 

[ovrszd]

Ovrszd,

I can't tell you what the result would be. . But it seems you tried to set up a challenge that "heads you're right" and "tails I'm wrong" because if I turn in the same size circle then "I'm pulling". So how do you prove I'm pulling? You seemed to assume correctness without anyway of verifying it.

Even more interesting is that I stated 4wd or 2wd didn't show a difference in how hard it was to steer on my tractor . . whereas many claim steering is much stiffer in 4wd drive than 2wd.

The subject statement was about stiffness and difficulty steering. . . while your challenge is about something completely different and with an assumed result that can't be verified.

Finally, just how many scuts have you driven in the last 4 model years to make such a bold statement. . 10 orv15 ?

Steering stiffness is your term. The subject is binding/scuffing. Nothing assumed about the result. You are going to report definite results.

 

[ovrszd]

Ovrszd,

I can't tell you what the result would be. . But it seems you tried to set up a challenge that "heads you're right" and "tails I'm wrong" because if I turn in the same size circle then "I'm pulling". So how do you prove I'm pulling? You seemed to assume correctness without anyway of verifying it.

Even more interesting is that I stated 4wd or 2wd didn't show a difference in how hard it was to steer on my tractor . . whereas many claim steering is much stiffer in 4wd drive than 2wd.

The subject statement was about stiffness and difficulty steering. . . while your challenge is about something completely different and with an assumed result that can't be verified.

Finally, just how many scuts have you driven in the last 4 model years to make such a bold statement. . 10 orv15 ?

I've had a FWA SCUT for 15 years. Two models.

Nothing bold about my statement at all. Simple logistics.

Are you claiming your SCUT is logistically advanced enough to prevent binding/scuffing? You suggested that earlier.

 

[goeduck]

In regards to older 2WD tractors, back in the day many, if not most, tractors did NOT have FEL loaders on them, not having a loader gave them much better traction than a 2WD with loader. Those 2WD loaders really only filled a gap until 4WD with loader utility/compacts became the norm. It is rare to see a new tractor with 2WD and FEL. If I have a heavy load on my 3 pt non loader 2 WD tractor, I can go most anywhere a 4 WD can.

 

[ovrszd]

In regards to older 2WD tractors, back in the day many, if not most, tractors did NOT have FEL loaders on them, not having a loader gave them much better traction than a 2WD with loader. Those 2WD loaders really only filled a gap until 4WD with loader utility/compacts became the norm. It is rare to see a new tractor with 2WD and FEL. If I have a heavy load on my 3 pt non loader 2 WD tractor, I can go most anywhere a 4 WD can.

Yep. Well stated.

Additionally those older tractors were AG design. They carry a large percentage of their chassis weight on the rear wheels. This made them more capable with a loader in 2wd.

 

[PhysAssist]

Growing up we NEVER had 4x4 tractors. They were all 4x2 with chains and individual brakes for the rear wheels. Before my legs were long enough to reach the peddles, I knew how to climb steep grades using those brakes and the front tires were rarely touching the ground. A 4x4 tractor was only NEEDED for the hills too steep to walk on.

But did you have Front-End Loaders on them?

I know that by and large we didn't, so except for the odd Farm-all 3 -wheeler, we never really had to worry too awful much about stability, balance points, hills etc....

 

[PhysAssist]

Most trucks have brakes on all four wheels and equally sized tires...

and aren't any where near as top-heavy as tractors can be- especially with a loaded FEL.

 

[ovrszd]

except for the odd Farm-all 3 -wheeler, we never really had to worry too awful much about stability, balance points, hills etc....

You obviously didn't drive tractors where ruffdog and I did.

 

[ruffdog]

You obviously didn't drive tractors where ruffdog and I did.

Yeah, we had a tall 75hp IH with narrow front and loader that YES, you had to use your head with, climbing up and down wooded areas. One time my dad wasn't careful and he rolled it. We all thought it was time for him to get a LOW 4x4 so it was safer. I still wonder about him.....

 

[PhysAssist]

You obviously didn't drive tractors where ruffdog and I did.

That's true- Upstate NY born and bred- lived between Buffalo and Rochester most of my life- except for several years w/ college in Ky and work in Ma...

 

[AxleHub]

Greetings Overszd,

I had posted: "As another example - my scut is certainly not awd - however I'm in 4wd (front wheel assist if you require the phrase) - but neither I or anyone else could tell on lawn or dirt or gravel - that my steering is altered in any way from 2wd. Only on dry concrete or dry blacktop can you "sense" a different sound in 4wd to 2wd - and in no way does it alter the turning ease and turning circle. Maybe larger compact tractors and older equipment is stiffer steering in 4wd compared to 2wd - but I've never ridden on any that are even though I know my neighbor's jd x728 lawn tractor is stiffer in 4wd."

And in response you posted:

I challenge you to a test. With your scut in 2wd, turn the steering one direction to full turn, drive forward for 2 or 3 complete circles so you can see and mark the inside diameter of the circle, stop and mark it. Now engage 4wd and make 2 or 3 more complete circles. Can you stay in the same tracks?

If your turning circle grows that's called "push". Your back tires are out running the fronts and pushing the front out of the circle.

If the circle remains the same diameter with no sign of push the front ratio is different enough to compensate for the different ground distance being covered. If you have this condition you will have severe "pull" when going straight.

I don't know of any SCUT, CUT or Utility class FWA tractor that doesn't display one of these "push" "pull" conditions. Thus, they are all binding and scuffing at some point.

Very high end AG class FWA tractors have the technology to vary the ratio dependent on degree of turn measured at the axis of the front axle knuckles. This allows them to make short turns at the end of the field without disengaging FWA.

Well Overszd, I guess you don't know many current day scuts then, because my Massey GC1715 is one of 4 models and I would propose that all 4 of those models will handle the same. And in testing - my particular unit performs exactly as I stated on grass. You "challenged" me to do a set of instructions you listed and then you prophesied I would have 1 of 2 types of occurrences display themselves. Well . . . . in 2wd, I tight turned to the left in the tightest circle possible and at moderate speed (not creep or crawl speed) - and as you specified it wasn't for one lap but 3. Then I switched in to 4wd as per your requirements and went in the same tight left hand tight turn circle . . . again 3 laps. Then as you required, I turned to going straight ahead.

The result? I was able to maintain the same turn circle size and position over the 2 sets of 3 laps. (I varied in 2wd on the 3 laps by 1.1 inches of each other in circle size - in 4wd I varied within 1.2 inches of each lap in circle size.) And I was able within those individual variations of each lap to be in the very same turning circle between 2wd and 4wd of LESS THAN 0.2 inches. Then I went straight and saw or felt or heard no difference in performance.

At no time during this "challenge" did I sense any tightening or stiffness or resistance to steering. At no time did it require more or less strength or did I hear or experience any of the conditions you stated.


You also posted as a followup to our discussion the following:

"I've had a FWA SCUT for 15 years. Two models. Nothing bold about my statement at all. Simple logistics."

But Overszd - I suggest you make bold statements like this one was "I don't know of any SCUT, CUT or Utility class FWA tractor that doesn't display one of these "push" "pull" conditions."

How is that not a very bold statement when you have such a tiny little (and aged) experience with only 2 scuts and especially older model equipment besides. The universe of well known scuts is 8 to a dozen brands minimum with numerous models in each and then who knows how many more not well known brands besides.

I also suggest Overszd that you predicted CERTAINTY of the future results to be stated in more than two following posts as well. When in fact the result was anything but certain.

As a poster, I quite often communicate my opinion but also clarify that opinion to my model or my amount of experience or other model experiences so as not to mislead readers and imply a level of knowledge I don't have or can prove. I post too many words often - but its specifically because I specify the conditions of my statements. I only have experience having driven/operated about 12 different models/brands of scuts and only 3 models of small compacts, and I never state or assume product size or equipment I have no experience with. All of us can make mistakes in our posts - but we also need to be responsible as words have importance - and brash statements can influence some readers to be influenced incorrectly by inaccurate posts.

I appreciate you wanted to challenge my statements - and I think that is fine as long as youdon't think you can "command it". But I dislike your boldness (or maybe its just arrogance) that you could be the only possible correct one (and with only 2 scuts as experience besides).

I'm sure you have a ton of valuable and desired experience in various areas relating to tractors that I don't have even though we are likely very similar in age (early 60's). Please aim that valued experience with a more accurate siteline and direction or clarify it so there is no confusion. I'd hate to see you look wrong again after prophesying certainty several times. Thank you.

 

[Utopia Texas]

?

Greetings Overszd,

I had posted: "As another example - my scut is certainly not awd - however I'm in 4wd (front wheel assist if you require the phrase) - but neither I or anyone else could tell on lawn or dirt or gravel - that my steering is altered in any way from 2wd. Only on dry concrete or dry blacktop can you "sense" a different sound in 4wd to 2wd - and in no way does it alter the turning ease and turning circle. Maybe larger compact tractors and older equipment is stiffer steering in 4wd compared to 2wd - but I've never ridden on any that are even though I know my neighbor's jd x728 lawn tractor is stiffer in 4wd."

And in response you posted:



Well Overszd, I guess you don't know many current day scuts then, because my Massey GC1715 is one of 4 models and I would propose that all 4 of those models will handle the same. And in testing - my particular unit performs exactly as I stated on grass. You "challenged" me to do a set of instructions you listed and then you prophesied I would have 1 of 2 types of occurrences display themselves. Well . . . . in 2wd, I tight turned to the left in the tightest circle possible and at moderate speed (not creep or crawl speed) - and as you specified it wasn't for one lap but 3. Then I switched in to 4wd as per your requirements and went in the same tight left hand tight turn circle . . . again 3 laps. Then as you required, I turned to going straight ahead.

The result? I was able to maintain the same turn circle size and position over the 2 sets of 3 laps. (I varied in 2wd on the 3 laps by 1.1 inches of each other in circle size - in 4wd I varied within 1.2 inches of each lap in circle size.) And I was able within those individual variations of each lap to be in the very same turning circle between 2wd and 4wd of LESS THAN 0.2 inches. Then I went straight and saw or felt or heard no difference in performance.

At no time during this "challenge" did I sense any tightening or stiffness or resistance to steering. At no time did it require more or less strength or did I hear or experience any of the conditions you stated.


You also posted as a followup to our discussion the following:

"I've had a FWA SCUT for 15 years. Two models. Nothing bold about my statement at all. Simple logistics."

But Overszd - I suggest you make very bold statements like this one was "I don't know of any SCUT, CUT or Utility class FWA tractor that doesn't display one of these "push" "pull" conditions."

How is that not a very bold statement when you have such a tiny experience with only 2 scuts and especially older model equipment besides. The universe of well known scuts is 8 to a dozen brands minimum with numerous models in each.

I also suggest Overszd that were also predicted CERTAINTY of the future results in more than one post as well. And the result was anything but certain.

As a poster, I quite often communicate my opinion but also clarify that opinion to my model or my amount of experience so as not to mislead readers and imply a level of knowledge I don't have or can prove. I post too many words often - but its specifically because I specify the conditions of my statements. I only have experience driving about 12 different models/brands of scuts and only 3 models of small compacts, and I never state or assume product size or equipment I have no experience with. All of us can make mistakes in our posts - but we also need to be responsible as words have importance - and some readers may get influenced incorrectly by inaccurate posts.

I appreciate you wanted to challenge my statements - but I dislike your boldness (or maybe its just arrogance) that you could be the only possible correct one (and with only 2 scuts as experience besides).

I'm sure you have a ton of valuable and desired experience in various areas relating to tractors that I don't have even though we are likely very similar in age (early 60's). Please aim that valued experience with a more accurate siteline and direction or clarify it so there is no confusion. Thank you.

I get the impression someones 4 wheel drive has never work and they do not know it!

 

[AxleHub]

?


I get the impression someones 4 wheel drive has never work and they do not know it!

My front wheel assist is used and challenged every time I mow the lawn or go on my steep hills and sidehills. Steep mowing in good months is matched with steep plowing on a lengthy steep driveway and sidewalks. One part of my driveway when iced in winter - I can't walk up or down - yet I have no difficulty with my GC1715 and my turf tires (no chains).

I've always been quite surprised just how incredible the hydro braking is in 4wd and how dangerously lacking it is in 2wd.

But how about an example. Yesterday I was mowing on the front yard - and my very most steep area ends at a culvert area. Unfortunately rains have cut into a very small area just below the steepest part of my lawn. Until it gets repaired (for about the 5th time) - if I fail to stop prior to the cut out - I'll drop both front wheels into the eroded area and bottom on the front axle or worse. My neighbor across the street had gotten in his truck parked in his driveway - and was getting ready to leave while I was doing this (he has steep areas too). But he didn't leave. I drove down very slowly to just a few inches within the point of erosion while cutting - with my foot close to the brake as well. Now this is steep enough that you slide forward in the seat till the seat belt stops you as well as pushing back with hands on the steering wheel etc.. And then I backed up the hill to continue cutting next to it.

I'd asked him how come he hadn't left - and he said he didn't want to start the truck for fear it would distract me - or in case I needed his help if the unit slipped.

He was just amazed what that Massey could do - and he's been cutting on steep hills for decades. I said "well its not just the Massey you know - its the operator too." LOL

 

[Steppenwolfe]

If you have hilly parts, I'd leave it in 4wd ALL THE TIME. You may forget sometimes and then go skidding down the hill with front wheels freewheeling and rear wheels just skidding. Then if you get very slightly sideways and hit a spot that stops you abruptly, you could very easily turn it over. In the meantime, you will have absolutely not control other than a little bit of steering. Been there; done that. KEEP IT IN 4WD!

Ralph

AMEN, Brother... What he say's...:thumbsup: