What we will do for wine

[65fl]

This is an old root cellar that the wife and I have been using as a wine cellar for our wine making hobby. Last fall we noticed that the roof was collapsing so we shored it up as best we could and deemed it a high priority project for this summer. Well I got the dirt off the roof now and need to start thinking about how to rebuild this. The cellar is 10' x 16' with the interior divided into two rooms. The current roof is 6"x12" beams laid flat with a few layers of roofing felt, tar and roll roofing providing the water proofing. The soil depth on the roof was 18"

I was thing of using 2" x 10" x 10' joists on 12" centers along with 2 layers of 3/4" plywood sheathing, all wood will be ground contact pressure treated, think that will work?

I haven't given too much thought on the roofing membrane, so any guidance will be welcome.

 

[M5farms]

The system you had is probably the cheapest and will work . I would go back with a single ply tpo or epdm after you rebuild the roof a single ply will only need to be attached around the perimeter walls because the soil will hold the membrane down.

 

[Budweiser John]

For what it’s worth, my neighbor built a root cellar some years ago using treated wood.
It was an exercise in futility as the chemicals from the treated lumber leached into the vegetables rendering them inedible.
From your last picture it appears as if a concrete cap was poured? I agree, a torch down EDM membrane would be a good waterproofing choice.
My one and only attempt at making wine resulted in a concoction that tasted like after shave lotion so now the problem is what to do with all the green glass no one wants. You can only make so many ‘bottle trees’ for the flower garden.

B. John

 

[deanocraft]

If you go with your idea of 2 x 10’s and plywood sheeting, I would use Advantec sheeting. It will hold up much better than plywood. That is a cool looking root cellar...

 

[jmc]

Great project!

Did you consider using a single 3/4" sheet each, above and below the joists? The resulting dead air space would provide more insulation. The joists couldn't splay under load. The question would be how much dirt 3/4" spanning 10 1/2 inches would support without sagging.

 

[Fuddy1952]

This I'm sure is a stupid idea since I know very little about construction, but what if you removed the roof entirely. You would have the walls left. Then uphill level out a spot maybe a foot or so wider and longer than that. Form it up, put in reinforcing rod then pour concrete the thickness you want, (10"?). Once hardened, take forms down and slide this over top of walls. Now you have a solid concrete roof.
Of course it's a bit of engineering feat, forming properly, sliding something that heavy into place, but seems feasible.

 

[MossRoad]

This I'm sure is a stupid idea since I know very little about construction, but what if you removed the roof entirely. You would have the walls left. Then uphill level out a spot maybe a foot or so wider and longer than that. Form it up, put in reinforcing rod then pour concrete the thickness you want, (10"?). Once hardened, take forms down and slide this over top of walls. Now you have a solid concrete roof.
Of course it's a bit of engineering feat, forming properly, sliding something that heavy into place, but seems feasible.

Or, you could just put in plywood with cribbing under it, a moisture barrier, rebar, and pour it directly in place, then remove the cribbing when it dries.

 

[GLyford]

Or cribbing, metal roofing, and rebar, and leave the metal roofing in place to be the ceiling?

Depending on how good a scrounge you are, you may even be able to find proper "form deck" they use for pouring slab floors in commercial buildings...

 

[hawkeye08]

x2 on the concrete.. we did a root cellar roof years ago at great uncles place, still there 40 years later.

 

[Stimw]

I made wine for a couple years back in the 70's.
NEVER could stand drinking it or any wine!
I heard it said that they need to put it back in the horse it came out of!!!

 

[65fl]

Thanks for all the responses. If I were to go with a cast in place concrete roof how thick and how much rebar so I know it is strong enough? Is there an online calculator to use?

I'm leaning toward a wood roof because I am most comfortable working in that medium plus the original roof was wood and it lasted 50 years even though is was underbuilt and wasn't waterproofed very well. If my new roof lasts that long I'll be dust in the wind when it fails and will not care.

I am figuring a load of about 160 lbs per square foot, so if I double up my 2x10 joists that will be plenty strong. I've been reading up on epdm membrane, that sounds like something I can install easily so will probably go with that. I am second guessing the need for two layers of plywood, the load tables I'm looking at show that 3/4 ply can handle over 800 psf on 12" centers as long the face grain is across the supports. I'll look into the Advantec sheathing.

We've been making wine for a few years now and really enjoy it, we've got a couple of bottles left of a Tempranillo which is excellent and a case and a half of a Merlot that is out of this world. Our first batch (a cheap Merlot) wasn't very good, but it was good enough to get our interest up and try a better kit.

 

[PILOON]

Heck I'd sure go with concrete and 2 or 4 inch wire mesh as is commonly used in concrete flooring.
If 4 inch concrete can withstand a vehicle then even a bit less properly re enforced will support your cellar roof.
You can pour that roof using the oldest crappiest plywood since it is but a temporary 'form'.
Once hardened/cured either tar it or use a membrane just as you would treat the underground portion of a foundation.

 

[MossRoad]

4 inches of concrete sitting on the ground will support a vehicle, because that 4000# car is really only 1000# in 4 different places (the tires). 4" of concrete with just wire mesh supported only on the edges with no compacted soil under it probably won't support a foot or two of water-soaked soil sitting over air. It's a big difference.

The OP mentioned it's two rooms in the cellar. I'd build up that divider wall so the roof is supported in the middle.

And, since the OP said wood is his thing, and the original was wood, and lasted 50 years, why not just rebuild it exactly the same way, only put a waterproof membrane over it? It'll last even longer that way.

 

[EddieWalker]

4 inches of concrete sitting on the ground will support a vehicle, because that 4000# car is really only 1000# in 4 different places (the tires). 4" of concrete with just wire mesh supported only on the edges with no compacted soil under it probably won't support a foot or two of water-soaked soil sitting over air. It's a big difference.

The OP mentioned it's two rooms in the cellar. I'd build up that divider wall so the roof is supported in the middle.

And, since the OP said wood is his thing, and the original was wood, and lasted 50 years, why not just rebuild it exactly the same way, only put a waterproof membrane over it? It'll last even longer that way.

Agree with this 100%

Just about all RV's now have rubber roofs. If you are looking for a source to get the rubber, that's where I would start my search.

 

[M5farms]

Agree with this 100%

Just about all RV's now have rubber roofs. If you are looking for a source to get the rubber, that's where I would start my search.

a roofing distributor is where OP needs to source the rubber. RV shops buy from the distributors when replacing them. Box stores HD lowes and the likes are not recommended

 

[65fl]

Friday I was able to get the roof off. I used a circular saw and just cut the roofing material at the seam of each beam. I was able to pop the first one off using the FEL on my tractor then after that they came off pretty easily using a 6 foot pry bar. These beams were 6" thick and ranged from 10" to 14" wide. You can see some more off the damage in the pictures and the sill plate wasn't much more than dust. Over the weekend I installed new sill plates then today put up the joists. I decided to go with double 2x10 joists then a single layer of 3/4" sheathing which hopefully I'll get up tomorrow. I'm going with an EPDM roof which I ordered online, it will be delivered Thursday.

 

[Stimw]

Don't see any wine!!
When I USED to make wine I got old empty bottles from a friend's bar.
Not sure where you get yours but empty bottles usually get thrown away, you might try asking around for them.
I hope you also know that the bottles need to be stored with the opening down to keep the cork wet.

 

[mykleh]

actually we store our bottles on their sides so corks stay wet but sediment can easily settle back to bottom.

 

[HCJtractor]

What wood did you use ?

 

[EddieWalker]

That looks VERY GOOD!!!!