Diesel vs gas

[MossRoad]

I spent Friday morning draining a 150 gallon diesel tank on a 150,000 watt generator that had algae in the tank and started running very rough and belching smoke out of the turbo housing. The diesel mechanic said the fuel was contaminated. I inherited the problem, and no one really knows when the last time the tank was filled, they think maybe 5 years ago. And they didn't know if the fuel was treated. Had to hire an environmental company to suck out the tank and haul the fuel off. Looked in the bottom of the tank, and there's 1/4" of gray slime everywhere. Then the fuel company brought in fresh fuel and treated it with algaecide and stabilizer. But no one cleaned the tank out. I pointed it out, but the fuel guy and diesel mechanic and environmental guy all said the fuel treatment will dissolve the algae, so the bosses listened to them and didn't have the tank cleaned out. I am not a diesel mechanic, nor do I have any experience dealing with algae in diesel fuel, so I don't know if that's true or not.

I ran if for 1/2 an hour and it ran fine, only coughing right at startup, probably due to some air in the lines after draining the tank.

Anyhow, I now have first-hand experience with heavy algae in diesel fuel, and am still happy with my gas engined machines.

 

[vvanders]

I want to see a diesel-electric like on the locomotives. All the torque+fine grained control of a VFD traction motor with the fuel stability of diesel.

Proabably cost an arm and a leg but would be nifty.

 

[MossRoad]

Not tryin to start a war..... To do the work of a comparable diesel, your gassers gotta turn 3500-4500 rpms while the diesel is turning 1500-2500 rpm.

Pulled out my IH2500b manuals.

It was available with either a 200 cubic inch gas engine or a 239 cubic inch diesel engine.

With gears transmissions:
Full load engine speed for both engines is 2200 rpm.
High idle for the gas is 2420 rpm and the diesel is 2480 rpm.

With hydrostatic transmissions:
Full load engine speed for both engines is 2400 rpm.
High idle for the gas is 2640 rpm and the diesel is 2650.

The bore on the gas is 3.812 and diesel is 3.875.
Stroke is 4.39 gas and 5.06 diesel.

So, the diesel requires a larger bore and stroke and HIGHER rpms than the gas engine.

 

[Groo]

then there is the getting stuck with summer fuel in the tank when it gets cold out...not the slightest problem for gas...it has cost me days to get the the fuel all treated enough to plow the driveway with an oil burner. Gel just doesn't mix well with anti gelling additives.
so basically to get diesel to last a long time, you need an algecide and anti-gelling additives. To make gas last a long time, you need to just make sure you buy the gas without the added garbage in it.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I'v been doing some research, some say 12 months if treated, but whats the read deal, the new diesel is not like the old, and heat kills it. What do you guys think, I use Biobor TF and do keep it over a year but not much over. So whats the real answer ?

The REAL answer is, "I" can keep diesel for several years with NO additives in it at all, and it still works perfectly in my diesels...

I just make sure no water get's in it...

SR

 

[Groo]

The REAL answer is, "I" can keep diesel for several years with NO additives in it at all, and it still works perfectly in my diesels...

I just make sure no water get's in it...

SR

Do the same with ethanol free gasoline, and it will last just as well, if not better.
If you can use that diesel fuel below zero, it has additives in it.

 

[4570Man]

Ethanol free gas is nearly $3 a gallon. Off road diesel was $2.41 last week.

 

[Groo]

Ethanol free gas is nearly $3 a gallon. Off road diesel was $2.41 last week.

once again; thanks to government shenanigans.

ps. pretty sure you can buy bulk e free 87 for quite a bit less than $3 gallon.

 

[MossRoad]

Ethanol free gas is nearly $3 a gallon. Off road diesel was $2.41 last week.

It was $2.64 here on Friday....

 

[dfkrug]

...then the fuel company brought in fresh fuel and treated it with algaecide and stabilizer. But no one cleaned the tank out. I pointed it out, but the fuel guy and diesel mechanic and environmental guy all said the fuel treatment will dissolve the algae, so the bosses listened to them and didn't have the tank cleaned out. I am not a diesel mechanic, nor do I have any experience dealing with algae in diesel fuel, so I don't know if that's true or not.

Good story, Moss. I hope it is true that the treatment dissolves the algae and eliminates the
problem.

As for algae and sediment in diesel fuel, every one of the rental tractors that I restored had
some in the bottom of their tanks. In the early ones (late 80s Kubotas) the tanks were steel
and hard to remove and clean out. But I did that, as the fuel outlets were getting somewhat
clogged. Kudos to JD for using plastic tanks on their x55 CUTs and fuel outlets just above the
bottom of the tanks. Also, tank drains were on those tractors.

Steel tanks on CUTs or other equipment exacerbate the problem with internal condensation and
the resulting moisture that gets in and settles to the bottom of the tank. CUT tanks are hard to
remove on all the tractors I have owned or worked on.

 

[4570Man]

It was $2.64 here on Friday....

I haven’t bought any in probably 2 weeks but it cost me $5.80 to fill my 2 gallon can.

 

[4570Man]

once again; thanks to government shenanigans.

ps. pretty sure you can buy bulk e free 87 for quite a bit less than $3 gallon.

With the Dixie chopper on backup duty and the diesel grasshopper doing most of the work I don’t burn very much e free gas anymore. Local bulk place wants 700 gallons a month to have an account.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

If you can use that diesel fuel below zero, it has additives in it.

It probably does, BUT I didn't put it in... I don't add anything to my diesel, storage or other wise...

I have NO problem starting my loader tractor all winter long and yes it does go below zero here in the winter.

SR

 

[LouNY]

I am going to go back a bit in the 50's we had gas and or distillate engines,
in the 60's and 70's up to 80 HP you had a choice of gas or diesel, depending on the make and model the gas and diesel turned about the same rpm (within a few hundred), the power delivery was very similar the gas motors had about the same lugging power as the diesels.
A lot of the gas engines had torque peaks at 12-1400 rpm and would pull right down to 3-400 rpm,
then of course the poppin johns would lug down to just a few rpm gas or diesel.
The gas motors generally started better, especially in the cold weather,
most of the diesels had a bit better longevity, but also cost more,
the big difference was in fuel usage, the gas engines used a lot more gasoline to do the same work in a day then the diesels used,
especially when you went over the 60 HP level.
The cost of diesel was a bit less per gallon, I can't recall the exact $$$.
As time went on the diesel economy surpassed the gas by an even larger amount.
It would be interesting to see a gasoline tractor with the newest injection technology and ignitions, to compare with the new diesels.

 

[buickanddeere]

Pulled out my IH2500b manuals.

It was available with either a 200 cubic inch gas engine or a 239 cubic inch diesel engine.

With gears transmissions:
Full load engine speed for both engines is 2200 rpm.
High idle for the gas is 2420 rpm and the diesel is 2480 rpm.

With hydrostatic transmissions:
Full load engine speed for both engines is 2400 rpm.
High idle for the gas is 2640 rpm and the diesel is 2650.

The bore on the gas is 3.812 and diesel is 3.875.
Stroke is 4.39 gas and 5.06 diesel.

So, the diesel requires a larger bore and stroke and HIGHER rpms than the gas engine.

Well said there M.R.

 

[MossRoad]

I haven’t bought any in probably 2 weeks but it cost me $5.80 to fill my 2 gallon can.

It cost them about $356 for 135 gallons..... I complained about spending about $80 on 32 gallons of gas in my Suburban the other day! :laughing:

Gas was $2.73 Monday and went up to $3.09. I got it at $2.73.

 

[MitchellB]

I got a Ford 1958 861 Diesel tractor. I believe this was Ford's first year for diesel tractors. The gasoline counterpart uses virtually the same engine block.
According to Tractor Data online, that diesel engine has the same bore & stroke 3.90x3.60 inches and the same 172 cubic inches as the gas engine. However the diesel has 16.8:1 compression compared to 7.5:1 for the gasser. The diesel has 56.3 hp and 140.4 lb-ft of torque at 1400 RPM; rated RPM is 2200. The gasoline engine is 62.6 hp, rated RPM is 2000, torque is 166 lb-ft at 1600 RPM. So it seems to me the gasoline engine is a little stronger when the cubic inches and bore/stroke are identical.

 

[dfkrug]

87 - octane gas is about $3.50/gal now in CA; diesel is over $4. You prob have to go to Hawaii
to find prices that high in the US.

I notice that the smallest diesel engine sold now in CA (in new excavators) seems to be 3-cyl, Yanmar, Kubota, or
similar, and only about 10 hp and a bit over 700cc. A 420cc gas engine (CARB/EPA-compliant) puts out 15-16hp.

 

[MHarryE]

Back in the 70's I was working as an engineer for Cleaner Combines. We used the same basic engine gas or diesel but the gas wouldn't handle slugs fed into the combine like a diesel. Slug -- poor -- dead -- dig the slug out. So we changed to GM gas engines to get more gas engine power. Combine 155 HP from a Chef 350 gas or 130 from a turbo 301 Allis-Chalmers. Same result except sucking a tremendous amount extra fuel when fuel prices were skyrocketing with $1 per gallon in site. Bit the bullet and dropped the gas, or rather the customers did it for us.

I have a Kubota M7-171 rated by Kubota at 140 PTO up. The Nebraska test shows it put out slightly more HP at the E PTO 1600 rpm than it did at the rated PTO 2000 rpm. Since HP=2 × pi x T/33,000 the torque has to really climb to get more HP at 1600 than at 2000. Our JD 7720 is even better rated at 130 PTO but by the Nebraska test peaking at 170 HP as it pulls down.

I grew up with Far all H's and M's but what a difference when we got our first diesel - except for starting at 40 below. It didn't, but the Farmalls were still around.

 

[Groo]

I remember hearing about a well drilling rig around here. The got it with a Dodge V10, and it got like 3mpg for them. Needless to say; they got a Cummins when the V10 mysteriously burned up. I think the B5.9t got like 12mpg or so. Not too surprising. Those 8.0ls were always thirsty.