Comparison The process of elimination - Mahindra, Kubota, Kioti

[Atchuuu]

I have been looking for a tractor for several months. Funny how when you aren't in the market for something you don't see it. This past weekend I noticed commercials on television for Kubota, Mahindra, Deere and Kioti. Turns out we have a Kioti dealer in within 25 miles (had no idea). Prior to TBN I had never heard of Kioti.

Today I went to check them out and they look like quality tractors. The CK3510H and CK4010H were on the dealers lot. The seat is very comfortable, FEL control is on the fender. Looks well built, etc.

But the weight of the tractor, Kioti, is 2,734 lbs for both of the units mentioned above. The Kubota L3301 and L3901 are 2,778 lbs and ground clearance on the Kubota and Kioti are identical at 13.4". All of these models have the live PTO. So they seem very comparable to each other.

The Mahindra 2538 is significantly heavier at 3,130 lbs, does not have DPF, has independent PTO (not sure which is better) and just seems beefier. It is less expensive then the Kubota but not by a lot ($1,500 +-) and likely around the same price as the Kioti.

We have New Holland, Deere and LS in the area too. I have ruled out those three for various reasons.

So here are a couple of questions;

1. Are Kubota and Kioti light tractors or is the Mahindra just heavy?
2. How big of a deal is the weight difference? I see many of you are spending a lot to increase weight through filling tires so I assume it is important.
3. Is Live vs. Independent PTO a big deal?

Thanks

 

[TheMadOne]

1. Are Kubota and Kioti light tractors or is the Mahindra just heavy?
2. How big of a deal is the weight difference? I see many of you are spending a lot to increase weight through filling tires so I assume it is important.
3. Is Live vs. Independent PTO a big deal?

1. Yes. Kubota specifically is know for being light, and Mahindra's main party piece is weight per dollar.
2. There's less than 400lbs between them, at most. Is it something to think about? Yes, but there are other considerations like ergonomics that would have to be taken into account as well. If everything else is already swaying you toward the Mahindra then it's a nice cherry, if everything else is screaming "Kubota", it can probably be ignored without buyer's remorse.
3. Not usually. "Live" PTO is a 2 stage clutch, that you can work the first stage, and the PTO, without stopping the tractor. "Independent" PTO doesn't use the clutch at all. It's only a big deal if you would constantly be engaging and disengaging the PTO, IMO.

 

[Wolfy]

More weight is not always better. Depending on where the extra weight is located can change the handling of the tractor.

 

[RSKY]

I am partial to Kioti because I own one and have had good luck with the dealer. But any of the name brands you mention build a good quality product or they would not still be in business. Three things would influence any decision to buy. First I would make a list of the features I want on a tractor and LOOK AT ONLY THOSE MODELS THAT HAVE THOSE FEATURES. It is very easy to get oneupitis and buy more than you really need. Second would be price of comparable models. Third would be the dealer, reputation, longevity, distance.

But if I found a tractor that just seemed to fit me and I liked the looks and the price was only a little, itty bitty bit more, I would probably find some reason to justify the purchase to myself.

RSKY

 

[ericm979]

I do a lot of wood chipping with a PTO chipper. The independent PTO lets me turn the chipper on and off from beside the tractor. With live PTO I have to get on the tractor and sit down to do it. It's also more convenient to start and stop the PTO when mowing with the rotary cutter and moving between areas to mow. If your mowing it all in one area it's not an advantage. The PTO is one of the reasons I went with the Branson instead of a Kubota L3301/3901.

Filling tires adds weight down low and in the rear. That lowers the center of gravity which is useful if you're operating on side slopes. More weight in the back counters weight on the loader so you're less likely to lift the rear tires when lifting something heavy. It also makes for better traction. I had mine filled with beet juice (Rimguard). I hope I don't get a puncture, that'll be a hassle (though non toxic unlike calcium chloride).

 

[N2DFire]

The Mahindra 2538 is significantly heavier at 3,130 lbs, does not have DPF, has independent PTO (not sure which is better) and just seems beefier. It is less expensive then the Kubota but not by a lot ($1,500 +-) and likely around the same price as the Kioti.

I wouldn't be so sure about the price till you ask. When we were shopping (a few years back now) we found that Mahindra, Kubota, and Branson were all more expensive (by a couple grand) over Kioti. Things may be different now that Tier IV is the rule of the land.

1. Are Kubota and Kioti light tractors or is the Mahindra just heavy?
2. How big of a deal is the weight difference? I see many of you are spending a lot to increase weight through filling tires so I assume it is important.
3. Is Live vs. Independent PTO a big deal?

1) I would say the Mahindra is just a little heavier (not to say beefier per se, just heavier)

2) Well the difference is numerically significant. If you tried to add 350 or so lbs it becomes a slight challenge - how to do it (Fluids, Weights, etc.) Where to put it, and so forth. BUT is it significant for your usage - that's the real question.
The best way I ever saw it explained is like this Weight = Work & HP = Speed. In order to push or pull something you need weight for traction. More weight = More Traction = Bigger pulling/pushing power.

All of that being said, I agree with TheMadOne - I wouldn't let that be my sole deciding factor if other things were pulling me away.

3) Live vs Independent PTO - I have never had anything with independent PTO & for me the Live PTO was an upgrade - so bear that in mind with my response.
In a nutshell, since you're talking Hydrostatic instead of geared you're probably not going to run into issues with having to even use the clutch as often so the ability to do so without disrupting PTO power on a Live PTO really has no advantage over an Independent set-up (that I can see).

The only real difference to me, is that I'm just used to a 2 pedal panic stop (Brakes & Clutch) and everything stops. With the independent PTO I would have to learn new muscle memory to hit the PTO button as well. Not a big deal in the long run and nothing I would let be a deal breaker either.

My bottom line suggestion is to Seat test them all (remember to try operating things while turned around looking backwards like you're working - ergonomics change drastically then) and find the one that fits you best even if it's not the cheapest. A small sacrifice in comfort now will only magnify over a lifetime of ownership.

Best of luck whatever you choose. Be sure to come back and share pictures. We love new tractor pictures.

 

[ericm979]

It wasn't hard to learn to hit the PTO switch instead of the clutch. The only time I regularly need an emergency PTO stop is when I'm mowing with the rotary and hit a big rock. In that case it's faster to lift the cutter with the 3pt than to turn off the PTO. I mow with one hand on the 3pt control when I might hit a rock.

With a HST and live PTO with single stage clutch, operating the clutch to turn the PTO on and off means cutting drive. On my B7100 I'd always stop to do it. Being able to turn the PTO on/off while moving is an advantage but not a huge one to me. With a two stage clutch you can clutch the PTO while maintaining drive.

Another thing to think about is with a clutch and HST typically the clutch pedal is on the left and the HST and brakes on the right. Operating both HST and brake can be difficult. You do that when starting on a steep slope (to prevent rollback) or when using a single wheel brake for turning. Tractors with HST and no engine to transmission clutch can have the brakes on the left, making operating both brakes and HST easy. Those tractors have independent PTO.

 

[WVH1977]

What size is your property? What will be your major tasks with the tractor? These questions will help you figure out if weight is important or not. I personally like the independent PTO but I do a lot of tilling and bush hogging. I have not priced the L series Kubota's but if you are considering a L3901 have you looked at the L4701? Not sure how much of a price jump that is though. That seems to be a good sized economy tractor. I think a lot depends on what you plan on doing with the tractor.

 

[N2DFire]

It wasn't hard to learn to hit the PTO switch instead of the clutch. The only time I regularly need an emergency PTO stop is when I'm mowing with the rotary and hit a big rock. In that case it's faster to lift the cutter with the 3pt than to turn off the PTO. I mow with one hand on the 3pt control when I might hit a rock.

Yea I'm learning to keep a hand on the 3pt control as well. I just have so many years of "muscle memory" from the old Ford 8N - lifting the 3pt on that was pointless because the hydraulic pump is on the transmission side of the clutch so soon as you press the clutch in it disconnects the transmission, PTO, and hydraulic pump. Only thing you have left are brakes and steering (non-powered)

With a HST and live PTO with single stage clutch, operating the clutch to turn the PTO on and off means cutting drive. On my B7100 I'd always stop to do it. Being able to turn the PTO on/off while moving is an advantage but not a huge one to me. With a two stage clutch you can clutch the PTO while maintaining drive.

Is it (2 stage) different on HST models from a gear model? (Serious question b/c I don't know)

On our Kioti Gear/Shuttle the 2 stage clutch is Transmission first stage and PTO second. So I can change gears or direction w/o losing PTO power by depressing the clutch pedal half way, Going all the way to the floor disengages everything.

 

[ericm979]

You're right, I had the order of operation on the two stage backwards. I'm pretty sure the HST and gear ones work the same. Doesn't make much sense on an HST machine other than using existing parts.

 

[Atchuuu]

What size is your property? What will be your major tasks with the tractor? These questions will help you figure out if weight is important or not. I personally like the independent PTO but I do a lot of tilling and bush hogging. I have not priced the L series Kubota's but if you are considering a L3901 have you looked at the L4701? Not sure how much of a price jump that is though. That seems to be a good sized economy tractor. I think a lot depends on what you plan on doing with the tractor.

15 acres of land. approx. 4 of that is a pond so I will be mowing/BH the rest. Will use a ZTR around the house. Most of the land is flat but slopes some to the pond. I believe I could get by with less than 37-38 HP but figure I will buy a little more than I need now and hopefully this will be my first and last tractor. I could do what I need right now with a larger ZTR mower but it's a one trick pony and I'm making up lots of excuses to rule it out in favor of a tractor.

EDIT - Extra weight really isn't a problem as I will be maintaining a field with the tractor and using the lighter mower around the house.

 

[Atchuuu]

 

[N2DFire]

You're right, I had the order of operation on the two stage backwards. I'm pretty sure the HST and gear ones work the same. Doesn't make much sense on an HST machine other than using existing parts.

That makes sense & I agree that's about the only reason I can see for doing it on a HST.

That's also why I figure Live vs Independent is almost a wash. About the only thing I can think of that would make a difference (aside from some of the Auto Off type features of independent) is actually engaging the PTO. You would have to clutch on a live PTO but not independent. Both can be disengaged w/o the clutch.

In hindsight, we should have gotten the HST but after 30 or so years on a regular 4 speed with "ground speed" PTO - I'm still in high cotton with a Live PTO & Shuttle shift as long as my knees hold out. LOL

 

[N2DFire]

15 acres of land. approx. 4 of that is a pond so I will be mowing/BH the rest. Will use a ZTR around the house. Most of the land is flat but slopes some to the pond. I believe I could get by with less than 37-38 HP but figure I will buy a little more than I need now and hopefully this will be my first and last tractor. I could do what I need right now with a larger ZTR mower but it's a one trick pony and I'm making up lots of excuses to rule it out in favor of a tractor.

EDIT - Extra weight really isn't a problem as I will be maintaining a field with the tractor and using the lighter mower around the house.

That's a nice looking place you have there.

Size wise we're about on par with you. We have roughly 16-18 acres mostly open pasture land (hardly any of it is flat though lol) with a small portion of sparse standing timber.

When Dad and I were shopping he was looking at the largest Sub-Compact (35 hp) and I was just across the line at the smallest Compact (40 hp). At that time there was a pretty good price jump when you crossed that line and for most brands it was a change in Model/Series as well.

If Kioti had offered the 40 hp in the CK series then like they do in the CKxx10 series now, then that's probably what we would have gone with. All that being said, I have yet to run across anything I want/need to do where that extra 5 hp would make or break me getting a job done.

I think you're at a good size point for your needs. Physical size wise your choices are still small enough to get into some tighter spaces (if you have them) and still enough HP to take care of pretty much anything else you may need to do. Anything across that 40 hp line and you may start getting too big physically for your space.

 

[Atchuuu]

That's a nice looking place you have there.

Size wise we're about on par with you. We have roughly 16-18 acres mostly open pasture land (hardly any of it is flat though lol) with a small portion of sparse standing timber.

When Dad and I were shopping he was looking at the largest Sub-Compact (35 hp) and I was just across the line at the smallest Compact (40 hp). At that time there was a pretty good price jump when you crossed that line and for most brands it was a change in Model/Series as well.

If Kioti had offered the 40 hp in the CK series then like they do in the CKxx10 series now, then that's probably what we would have gone with. All that being said, I have yet to run across anything I want/need to do where that extra 5 hp would make or break me getting a job done.

I think you're at a good size point for your needs. Physical size wise your choices are still small enough to get into some tighter spaces (if you have them) and still enough HP to take care of pretty much anything else you may need to do. Anything across that 40 hp line and you may start getting too big physically for your space.

That's very good information Steve. Thanks.

 

[Atchuuu]

A bit off topic but I purchased a Dewalt 12" battery operated chainsaw to clean up the small pines and brush that have grown up at the base of the larger trees. I can't believe how well this thing works and how long it cuts for. So much easier to use then a gas saw for small jobs.

 

[Navvet]

That's very good information Steve. Thanks.

I was at the same point as far as deciding what tractor to buy. When I saw that Mahindra qualified for tier 4 without the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF), That alone made my decision.

 

[Atchuuu]

I was at the same point as far as deciding what tractor to buy. When I saw that Mahindra qualified for tier 4 without the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF), That alone made my decision.

Navvet - I'm thinking the same. It may not be an issue but since I already find the Mahindra to be a good value I'm leaning toward the 2638. Just waiting for the local dealer to get one on the lot. The 2538 is heavier than the competitors and I truly can't see the "fit and finish" issues others have talked about. The only thing I can think is that my inexperience keeps me from noticing the difference or those that have complained about the build quality are talking about different models or perhaps Mahindra's from years past.

 

[TheMadOne]

A bit off topic but I purchased a Dewalt 12" battery operated chainsaw to clean up the small pines and brush that have grown up at the base of the larger trees. I can't believe how well this thing works and how long it cuts for. So much easier to use then a gas saw for small jobs.

I keep a little black and decker around for the same reason. I firmly believe you should have three saws, a small(16") gas, a large(24"+) gas, and a little battery job(10"-12") for things like 4" limbs that come off in a storm, or cleaning around the base of larger trees.

 

[cheneyejc]

Hello, I bought a new ck4010 last summer. I use my tractors for lawn installation. I decided to go with the kioti because the dealer was close. That tractor was the biggest piece of crap. Had nothing but regen issues with dpf. My dealer was the biggest joke of all. They couldn't help fix the issues and when I would call i would get an answering machine. I can't afford down time. Sold the tractor and went back to a mahindra. Got the new 2638. Only 40 hrs on it and running strong. I put around 800 hrs on in a summer so the real test will be soon. I would stay away from kioti. There regen system sucks and I was having to force regen it on jobs. Tractor would sit for 45 minutes to regen. Mahindra did it right. Spent the money in R&D and designed an engine to meet tier 4 emmisions without filters.