YAHP(Yet Another Heat Pump) Question/Issue

[dmccarty]

The only question I have is who told you 65' decreases the efficiency?

1 - 65' is a drop in the bucket per system capacity loss
2 - Don't know of anyone who can give you the AHRI efficiency rating of a 65' line set run.
3 - My one line set is 76', with a 24' vertical rise, been in for the last 8 years. No complaints on my end.

You're in NC. Code for line sets in NC is 1/2" insulation on the suction line, which is more than adequate IMO.

FYI, I'd charge $6,300 for a base 3.5 ton 14 SEER heat pump (new line set, pad, drain pan, whip, disconnect, primary and secondary float with with new pump), which would include a 10 year factory backed 10 year labor plan on the equipment (any ductwork modifications, pricing would go up). So, is $5,800 high? For the info you've given, I'd say no IM professionl opinion:laughing:

You can always find cheap, a little harder to find people who will take care of you.

The HVAC guy mentioned the efficiency of the line length.

I am certainly not looking for the cheapest but I don't want to get ripped off either.

Sig, thanks for the info.

Later,
Dan

 

[Sigarms]

The HVAC guy mentioned the efficiency of the line length.

I'm curious as to what brand he was proposing as most technical data sheets on equipment will give you the capacity loss with extended line set lengths, not the efficiency loss. Generally, on most split non inverter equipment, a long line set isn't considered long until you hit 80'

I don't do Goodman, but see attached what I found online (per the existing size equipment you have, and perhaps what he quoted since it's the brand there now).



You'll notice, even for a 3.5 ton heat pump system, 65' isn't considered "long".

If the contractor you got a quote on is well reviewed, has a HVAC license (which can easily be found online) and stands behind his work in writing and you know exactly what you're getting, $5,800 for a 3.5 ton 14 SEER heat pump isn't bad. Actually, I'd consider it a pretty good price. Thing is, people tend to forget that parts under the standard 10 year registration parts warranty is covered but labor is NOT. I've had so many people pissed off because they had to replace a 6 year old compressor and think it was free because it was covered under the parts warranty

 

[kenmac]

I'm curious as to what brand he was proposing as most technical data sheets on equipment will give you the capacity loss with extended line set lengths, not the efficiency loss. Generally, on most split non inverter equipment, a long line set isn't considered long until you hit 80'

I don't do Goodman, but see attached what I found online (per the existing size equipment you have, and perhaps what he quoted since it's the brand there now).

View attachment 521425

You'll notice, even for a 3.5 ton heat pump system, 65' isn't considered "long".

If the contractor you got a quote on is well reviewed, has a HVAC license (which can easily be found online) and stands behind his work in writing and you know exactly what you're getting, $5,800 for a 3.5 ton 14 SEER heat pump isn't bad. Actually, I'd consider it a pretty good price. Thing is, people tend to forget that parts under the standard 10 year registration parts warranty is covered but labor is NOT. I've had so many people pissed off because they had to replace a 6 year old compressor and think it was free because it was covered under the parts warranty

Yeah, Not only is the labor not covered. Refrigerant isn't either.
You may also still charge you a service call on top of the labor.
I use to sell a 10 yr labor warranty to those that wanted it. It covered service calls and refrigerant, and included a service contract.

Check with others about the contractor you intend to use. If he is licensed by the state.Call the state and see if they will tell you of any complaints they have ,or have had against this contractor
It may be available to you from your installer.

 

[Sigarms]

Check with others about the contractor you intend to use. If he is licensed by the state.Call the state and see if they will tell you of any complaints they have ,or have had against this contractor
It may be available to you from your installer.

Ken, this is North Carolina. The State board puts this out every two months. Sometimes a contractor may take it out and leave it around for reading

 

[kenmac]

Ken, Sometimes a contractor may take it out and leave it around for reading

View attachment 521473

Good way to get the word out about bad contractors

The only notices they send out here is a list of those caught without a state license. If you wan't to know how many complaints a contractor has, or how many times the board has suspended them for lack of making proper repairs, the customer / another contractor would have to call the board.

Having said that, If a company has been in business long, and doing everything right , you will have failures... It's just the nature of the beast. How a company handles customer's issues is what separates the good contractors from the bad ones .

Most companies will give a 1 yr labor warranty on a new install. I gave 2 year labor warranty on all installs. If you had a failure within 2 yrs. You didn't pay for anything, refrigerant, service fee, trip time, etc,.

 

[dmccarty]

I'm curious as to what brand he was proposing as most technical data sheets on equipment will give you the capacity loss with extended line set lengths, not the efficiency loss. Generally, on most split non inverter equipment, a long line set isn't considered long until you hit 80'

I don't do Goodman, but see attached what I found online (per the existing size equipment you have, and perhaps what he quoted since it's the brand there now).

View attachment 521425

You'll notice, even for a 3.5 ton heat pump system, 65' isn't considered "long".

...

The current unit is Goodman and that is what we will use as a replacement.

Our line is long because it has to go from the outside unit on the north side of the house almost all the way across the house to the south side.

<sigh> This is a big sore point with me and has nothing to do with the current HVAC guy. The HVAC contractor who installed the system when we built the house was the one guy who %^&*( things up. He messed up drilling through the brick for the condensation drain. The mason wanted to do bad things to him. When the equipment was installed in the attic, it was supposed to be built on structure above the ceiling joists to maximize insulation. Instead, they just threw down OSB and installed the equipment. The insulation guy insulated as best he could but I think we put in 30-40 inches of insulation in the attic except where equipment in installed where we could only get 6-8 inches...

The electricians where in the house when I went out to check on progress and they said nothing to me when I was looking at what had been done but they were waiting to see my reaction. The danged electricians knew the HVAC installation was not installed the way it was supposed to have been done.

The reason the line goes 60ish feet is because they were going to install the outside unit on the south side of the house. This would be much closer to the equipment in the attic but the south side of the house is NOT where the unit was supposed to go. It was supposed to go on the north side of the house. Now the GC caught this in time to move the compressor but the equipment was already installed in the attic. and thus the long run.

Sooooo, when the current HVAC guy saw the line, he just mentioned in passing that the installation was not efficient. Looks like it is in spec thankfully.

Later,
Dan

 

[Sigarms]

Most companies will give a 1 yr labor warranty on a new install. I gave 2 year labor warranty on all installs. If you had a failure within 2 yrs. You didn't pay for anything, refrigerant, service fee, trip time, etc,.

It's basically law in NC that an HVAC company stand behind their work for one year (including labor) on new installs.

Don't think we so great though. When I first moved down here and I had heard that everyone actually had to have a license and pass a test, I thought "wow, everyone is going to be much smarter here". Sad to say, didn't turn out to be the case.

Although having an inspections department being run by the state may seem nice, the sad reality is there is no standard code throughout the entire state.

When a contractor asks me what the code is, I inform him to ask his local inspector because no matter what I say, he (the inspector) is the one who has the final authority. Long story short, even if you're right, it's common sense not to piss the inspector off even if he really doesn't know what he's doing and he got the job because he's someone's cousin who helped some babies mamma's boyfriend into office. I've been to the inspections department twice (in 2 different counties) for for two seperate issues with documentation. Dosen't matter, you do what they say, and that can be so much fun while keeping your mouth shut.

 

[dmccarty]

...
If the contractor you got a quote on is well reviewed, has a HVAC license (which can easily be found online) and stands behind his work in writing and you know exactly what you're getting, $5,800 for a 3.5 ton 14 SEER heat pump isn't bad...

:mur: Not sure that my Google Fu is working so well today. What website has the HVAC license? eLicense Online

On Edit: Looks like my Google Fu was working but just a bit slow.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[kenmac]

well, There isn't inspections ,or permits in many places here. The state HVAC board does have min. standards that you are required to follow. If someone has a complaint (inspections or not) they can fill out a complaint form on the state website. HVAC board will follow up and send out a state inspector to see if the min. standards for installations were followed. If not, the contractor will be given the chance to make things right, be fined, or revoke your license. If they revoke your license, you may as well find another line of work

Now, if you install a system, you are suppose to perform a duct leakage test, print the results and keep it in case there is a complaint.
The board can required a manual J just for replacement.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Few things here but a few points basically already said.

I would fix the current equipment first, but sometimes with companies it's more profitable to push for the replacement. If it was my call and I had a call on a known leaker, I would dye test, I have many times installed used equipment for people and gotten another 6 or 7 years out of them like condensing units they bought off CL by themselves, so there is always a cheaper alternative. You can still buy coils and new dry condensing units if part of the system is bad.

But like others have said it's a undiagnosed issue at this point, the leak hasn't even been attempted to be found or repaired, only after, would it be better to replace if it makes sense to do so.

I'm not a state licensed HVAC contractor yet, will be working on getting that next spring. I am though universally certified EPA section 608 and have my 410A.

As far as getting a contractors license, here in Ohio to even apply to take the test an application has to be submitted to the board showing you have been in the trade at least 5 years and have worked on at least one job a year that required a permit, you have to show permit numbers and who's license you were working under, it's very strict here now.

It used to be anyone could have a license, they gave them out like candy at a parade....almost lol. Then fly by night guys were doing shotty work, equipment was being given an unfair rep etc, so they really cracked down on who they give licenses out to.

I do lots of side work per year, I have to be careful the job doesn't require a permit and I am able to do the work legally, I also run into issues at supply houses, they also have cracked down, Lennox will not deal with you without a state contractors license even on parts, about the only thing around here I can get my hands on without calling in a favor is Rheem, Goodman and a few others.

Overall my fav is Rheem, doing service you see those old 10 seer horizontal condensing units sunk in the mud, the coils are plugged, its running 250-300 head pressure and just keeps running lol, you can pull 1500 screws out of it, clean the coil off and the rat nests from around the compressor and Contactor and it ran perfect after with little to no charge needed. It seemed I spent a few summers pulling those apart to clean them lol.

I have installed a good amount of Rheem a/c systems and only had one call back and that was due to a restriction in the filter dryer, I cut it out, replaced it again and its purred like a kitten ever since.