Current on a 12 gauge wire

[buckeyefarmer]

Why not?

Because I don't want the minimum, I have more circuits than code requires, I want flexibility. I sure as heck don't want a tied breaker just to save 1 cu wire. The cost of not doing shared neutral is small, very small. I know because I bought and installed all the wiring in my house.

 

[Zerk]

Because I don't want the minimum, I have more circuits than code requires, I want flexibility. I sure as heck don't want a tied breaker just to save 1 cu wire. The cost of not doing shared neutral is small, very small. I know because I bought and installed all the wiring in my house.

In this case the cost is pulling two cables or getting 12-4, which is not as common. Those neutrals will tied together at the panel.

I am not against seperating neutrals. But I don't most really know what they are talking about it, and are just going bigger to go bigger. Soon you have a full panel, then you need tandem breakers, which probably upsets you. My house came with some some. Don't bother me, they are just more money. But want to add 240 for air compressor, PIA with so much crap in panel.


It is good to have extra circuits. I like lights seperate so I have them when working on outlets, and if something trips.


NEC is not bare minimum.

Except for a few items, you consume very little power. You are not running things all at once. You can give some cute comeback, my wife and kids... But you are not. There are already margins built into, you are just putting safety on to safety.


I again I am not against putting extra in, I just find most people have no clue what they are talking about, but want something, that they no little about.

 

[Zerk]

BI sure as heck don't want a tied breaker just to save 1 cu wire..

We really have no clue what the guy is really doing. Not sure if I would do it that way, and I am not convinced it is being done that way. But I am also not afraid if it either. I have seen small machine screws used between breakers. I'd be tempted to put 4 circuit panel under the island, with local disconnect for dishwasher, if it does not have a plug. But this is way over kill, and really only benifts the electrician and not the home owner. They will probably never touch it, and risk not know it is there if it trips.


But again I ask you why? Do you know, or do you just not like something? You think they are using kite string a twist tie from a bread bag?

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Guess my clue came after an EE degree in power systems, a PE license, and yrs of designing commercial power systems......Not to mention various NEC courses from NFPA..

 

[Zerk]

I know because I bought and installed all the wiring in my house.

Are you a pro, or have training? If not, this scares me more than anything else. There is more than just twisting wire nuts. I have taught myself to build engines, but glad I worked as an apprentice in residential wiring. I know work in industrial, and I am not up on all the new codes, but feel safe.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Are you a pro, or have training? If not, this scares me more than anything else. There is more than just twisting wire nuts. I have taught myself to build engines, but glad I worked as an apprentice in residential wiring. I know work in industrial, and I am not up on all the new codes, but feel safe.

Lol, doesn't scare me, and that's all that matters.

 

[mbohuntr]

Curious, around here most home owners do not have 3 phase. Apartments might have it, some farms. But it is very rare for a home to be 3 phase. Guy would have to have a shop of some kind.

I am an industrial electrician by trade. I primarily work on stuff from 500KV down to 12VDC. With 277v three phase wiring, the neutral is shared by the other phases. We work on them hot because a faulty ballast in a ceiling light is repaired without killing the lighting for the entire building floor. All electricians are required to be certified journeymen, or apprentices under a journeyman.

Residential wiring is often modified by well meaning people who may or may not have the necessary skill set. I actually witnessed a 12/2 stripped and taped onto knob and tube to feed an entire second floor of a house, gee, why do the lights flicker???

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Are you a pro, or have training? If not, this scares me more than anything else. There is more than just twisting wire nuts. I have taught myself to build engines, but glad I worked as an apprentice in residential wiring. I know work in industrial, and I am not up on all the new codes, but feel safe.

I had a pro, trained electrician on one of my projects who cut into a live 15KV cable. Then there were all those projects where I had to trace out miswired circuits from those trained guys. Just recently I investigated a non working photo cell, discoved they wired a switch to the photo cell hot, instead of the switch wire per instructions.

Not to mention the electrician that told me a timer circuit was 240v, when a visual showed one side tied to neutral, and a meter confirmed 120v.

Yea, I've worked with good ones and bad ones.

 

[GregbkH]

Quote Originally Posted by GregbkH View Post
BTW, almost all circuits are designed to run at 80% max current. 15 amp breaker = 12 amps, 20 amp breaker = 16 amps.

No. Somewhere people learned a small but of information, but not how to use it.

Continuous load, is for 3 hours. Thae derate.

Standard rated circuit breakers are rated for 80%. The largest continuous load that can be applied to a 60 amp standard breaker and corresponding conductors is 48 amps. Math.... 1.25 (125%) x 48 amps = 60 amps.

They do make 100% duty breakers but they are more expensive.

My statement above was made to help homeowners stay safe.

FWIW, I'm a master electrician and know a thing or two about the NEC and calculations.

 

[GregbkH]

I am an industrial electrician by trade. I primarily work on stuff from 500KV down to 12VDC. With 277v three phase wiring, the neutral is shared by the other phases. We work on them hot because a faulty ballast in a ceiling light is repaired without killing the lighting for the entire building floor. All electricians are required to be certified journeymen, or apprentices under a journeyman.

Residential wiring is often modified by well meaning people who may or may not have the necessary skill set. I actually witnessed a 12/2 stripped and taped onto knob and tube to feed an entire second floor of a house, gee, why do the lights flicker???

I am a retired industrial electrician. We used to work on things hot but for the last 10 years our company changed their policy to not working on anything hot. You could get fired if you did and got caught. We also stopped using mwbc's and sharing neutrals. With the increased use of flourescent lighting among other things, the harmonics were putting too much load on the neutrals.

 

[mbohuntr]

Quote Originally Posted by GregbkH View Post
BTW, almost all circuits are designed to run at 80% max current. 15 amp breaker = 12 amps, 20 amp breaker = 16 amps.






Standard rated circuit breakers are rated for 80%. The largest continuous load that can be applied to a 60 amp standard breaker and corresponding conductors is 48 amps. Math.... 1.25 (125%) x 48 amps = 60 amps.

They do make 100% duty breakers but they are more expensive.

My statement above was made to help homeowners stay safe.

FWIW, I'm a master electrician and know a thing or two about the NEC and calculations.

Thank you.. I gave up trying to explain how shared neutral appliances were a bad thing and could " never " find itself on a Mini breaker... Or the same phase..

 

[mbohuntr]

I am a retired industrial electrician. We used to work on things hot but for the last 10 years our company changed their policy to not working on anything hot. You could get fired if you did and got caught. We also stopped using mwbc's and sharing neutrals. With the increased use of flourescent lighting among other things, the harmonics were putting too much load on the neutrals.

Unfortunately, we have lots of UPS systems, and critical equipment that doesn't like to get cycled on and off, so we have some latitude on when we can just tool pouch it, or we have to suit up. Anything above 4kv, your gettin sweaty in a suit.

 

[LD1]

Funny how electrical threads always seem to turn in to bigger pi$$ing matches than political threads.

MAny people dont have a clue about electricity. And its a good thing for them to be scared of it. But anyone with half a brain an ability to look up necessary information (like wire sizing tables, certain codes, etc) can figure out residential 120/240 wiring. As with alot of things, there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are several ways things can be wired correctly, how circuits are divided up, shared neutrals, etc. There isnt any one more correct than the other, just different.

Always been a jack of all trades. But as an employee of "the man" I have had many skilled trade job titles ranging from industrial electrician, multi-craft mechanic, machinist, etc. Currently my paycheck says I am a millwright. But that certainly dont mean I have forgot everything I know about electricity. Quite the opposite. I still do alot of electrical work including my own. Its not hard or complicated at all like some people make it out to be

 

[RNeumann]

Anyone seen or heard from the OP?

 

[ray66v]

A great deal of wiring is aluminum. It is not used in branch circuits in home any more, except for ranges or sub panels. Massive amounts of aluminum are used else where.


Typically you increase by one wire size when running alum, instead of copper. You also put a coating under the lugs in the panel so they don't oxidize.


On one hand I say the codes get to crazy, on the other hand, I don't most people should do wiring, or talk about wiring.

Thanks, I am aware of all that. As well as the proper sizing when using aluminum wire.

I have worked with it, when it was part of the existing wiring.

I'm also aware my power company is running aluminum wire down my street, on top of the telephone poles.

I'm still not interested in using it.

Nor, will I ever be.

 

[Zerk]

Lol, doesn't scare me, and that's all that matters.

So, am I correct you are pretty much sorta self taught?

Quote Originally Posted by GregbkH View Post
BTW, almost all circuits are designed to run at 80% max current. 15 amp breaker = 12 amps, 20 amp breaker = 16 amps.






Standard rated circuit breakers are rated for 80%. The largest continuous load that can be applied to a 60 amp standard breaker and corresponding conductors is 48 amps. Math.... 1.25 (125%) x 48 amps = 60 amps.

They do make 100% duty breakers but they are more expensive.

My statement above was made to help homeowners stay safe.

FWIW, I'm a master electrician and know a thing or two about the NEC and calculations.

Never heard that, I assume it is true. But are we talking Homeline vs QO? Which something we have not discussed.

Been awhile but did code work in 90s, now a PE, but don't work in code. Started out wiring, than drawings engineering firm, and than industry. I mostly work 12-230kV AC, and 48-230VDC controls.


So know, we have told each other long are peckers are. I am going to assume no one one is lying about size.

 

[Zerk]

Thanks, I am aware of all that. As well as the proper sizing when using aluminum wire.

I have worked with it, when it was part of the existing wiring.

I'm also aware my power company is running aluminum wire down my street, on top of the telephone poles.

I'm still not interested in using it.

Nor, will I ever be.

But you have no reason why, you just have an opinion.

BTW those are not telephone poles. Though I realize it is a common term for folks to use.

 

[Zerk]

Funny how electrical threads always seem to turn in to bigger pi$$ing matches than political threads.

MAny people dont have a clue about electricity. And its a good thing for them to be scared of it. But anyone with half a brain an ability to look up necessary information (like wire sizing tables, certain codes, etc) can figure out residential 120/240 wiring. As with alot of things, there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are several ways things can be wired correctly, how circuits are divided up, shared neutrals, etc. There isnt any one more correct than the other, just different.

Always been a jack of all trades. But as an employee of "the man" I have had many skilled trade job titles ranging from industrial electrician, multi-craft mechanic, machinist, etc. Currently my paycheck says I am a millwright. But that certainly dont mean I have forgot everything I know about electricity. Quite the opposite. I still do alot of electrical work including my own. Its not hard or complicated at all like some people make it out to be

You can look alot of stuff up. But lots of little stuff too Like noloax on alumium, or wrapping wire correctly around screw. Little stuff like that, I suspect slips past many self taught folks.


Old saying, you can turn an electrician into a plumber, but not a plumber into an electrician.

 

[TheGoose]

We like Laws just fine, we just don't need big brother looking after our every need. Besides, you think an inspector really knows what they are looking at?

Still bound by NEC. Just no local codes. Some counties or cities will be stricter than NEC. Which to me is BS. I am surpised being in TX you don't, they seem to like laws down there.

 

[CalG]

I like LD1 's recent post.

I run my entire lab on three wire. I've got many 240 V needs that also just want to plug into the wall socket. Like they do in most of the civilized world ;-) ( the many variations acknowledged)

I use a standard A-B panel filled with breakers that I use to switch in room lights and process equipment. It's been that way for over 15 years, and I use the space every day.

Ignorance is it's own penalty.