Sigarms
Super Star Member
I'm curious, if this issue were in your state, do you see the GC as being responsible for the 11k water bill, and do you see it as being a "easy" case to collect?
$11,000 Water Bill
- Thread starter justinramani
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I'm curious, if this issue were in your state, do you see the GC as being responsible for the 11k water bill, and do you see it as being a "easy" case to collect?
OP
justinramani
Gold Member
I appreciate all of the advice and support. I've been reviewing all of the comments and making calls to gain information. I will say that the NC Plumbing Commission doesn't seem like they mess around. They prosecute contractors that do plumbing work without a license - if they have contractor licenses they will persue that license. We still don't have any resolution, but I have MULTIPLE avenues available to persue. I am amazed by the NC state regulatory commissions. They don't play games.
Sigarms
Super Star Member
I can assure you, they do, you'll just never see it as a homeowner.
A very sincere "good luck" with whatever avenue you approach to get this resolved.
newbury
Super Star Member
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I'm in a similar but nowhere near as costly situation in my house in Mississippi which is about 400 feet from the main. Water leak after the main, about 30 gallons of leak per hour. I've a 300 gallon IBC tote and run a bucket brigade for toilet flushing etc. Fill the tote up about once a week, do laundry, don't bathe often.
We are supposed to get the line replaced this summer and were advised to use "black poly" and I looked into PEX. Seems PEX is better NOT buried. High pressure (160+) black poly is what is used in my area.
TheMan419
Veteran Member
Given the facts as presented it seems to me the house is under warranty so GC is on the hook. GC also, apparently, used unlicensed contractors to do the work that is now faulty. Even if licensed the GC picked them so the GC bears the responsibility.
That said immediate filing of a law suit is not the best resolution.
Ideally OP would get a trusted plumbing contractor out to look the work over and give an honest opinion as to the issues and what went wrong. Then a letter from a lawyer saying here is what is wrong please fix and pay the $11K water bill.
As far as collections, I have no way to formulate an opinion on the matter. I know nothing about the GC's finances.
I'd take the case because it sounds like OP got the shaft. He is serving overseas. His wife is serving here and taking care of their minor child by herself while he is deployed. So I'd take it more out of a sense of patriotism than making any money off the deal. So I guess it is a good thing I do not live near a military base or my practice would be nothing but cases like this.
Ultimately I do not think lawyering up is the wrong thing to do. Filing a law suit may well be the wrong thing to do.
Since his wife has access to a JAG officer for advice she should at a minimum talk to that lawyer.
Justinramani - since a significant amount of time is passing, how is your wife handling not having water?
While my in-law's cabin was under construction, and for almost a year afterward before their permanent water line was run, we ran a "temporary" water line through the woods from our construction site to theirs using 400 ft of off-the-shelf but high quality garden hose from Sam's. It was NOT super high flow, but adequate to flush a toilet and take a shower. Made up adapters at each end for connections. Reasonable cost and usable later. I installed a pressure regulator at the source end to keep it down to about 40psi on the hose. I expected occasional leaks from critters chewing it, but never had a problem.
While my in-law's cabin was under construction, and for almost a year afterward before their permanent water line was run, we ran a "temporary" water line through the woods from our construction site to theirs using 400 ft of off-the-shelf but high quality garden hose from Sam's. It was NOT super high flow, but adequate to flush a toilet and take a shower. Made up adapters at each end for connections. Reasonable cost and usable later. I installed a pressure regulator at the source end to keep it down to about 40psi on the hose. I expected occasional leaks from critters chewing it, but never had a problem.
Creamer
Elite Member
OK - I am real curious. Eddie and another poster from Texas have heard of problems with black poly pipe but I and so many others have had great experience with it. What is different about the ground in Texas that black poly pipe doesn't work there?
I cannot imagine using rigid PVC buried and not having flexible joints such as the ones the city used in the rock. That stuff is brittle and will not take the ground flexing as it does. Somebody mentioned putting it in 4" corrugated which I can see because then you protect it from the ground movement but that is a lot of work. Underground the temperature does not change as much as above ground so thermal growth and contraction should not be an issue.
I cannot imagine using rigid PVC buried and not having flexible joints such as the ones the city used in the rock. That stuff is brittle and will not take the ground flexing as it does. Somebody mentioned putting it in 4" corrugated which I can see because then you protect it from the ground movement but that is a lot of work. Underground the temperature does not change as much as above ground so thermal growth and contraction should not be an issue.
Creamer
Elite Member
Justin - It sounds like you go the builder's attention. If you work with the water department and hopefully get the bill reduced and also "help" the builder to get his costs reduced if he works quickly. Find the honey - it almost always works better than threats - of course sweetly include the assumption that is his bill and you are just trying to help.
aczlan
Good Morning
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The builder may have a significant amount of pull with the water department, especially if he is putting in a couple of subdivisions...
Aaron Z
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
I don't have black poly. I went with gasketed pipe for my place based on what I could learn about the various types of pipes out there and the recommendation from my water district. My run is 800 feet. I make a living fixing houses and remodeling them. I would guess that I'm exposed to more houses them most people, and I see what fails more often then most. I'm not a plumber and I'm not an expert in anything.
Black Poly is one of those products that fails more often then anything else out there. I checked code in one place because another posted said that's all they use there, like so many others do, and I could not find poly being code in that state. It's probably fine for short runs, and some soils. But just like those people who say they smoked cigarettes all their life and didn't get cancer, the risk is still there and too high for me to take a chance.
Why use a product that isn't the very best? Pipe with gaskets in it is the best choice available today for long runs.
I also wonder if those people suggesting using poly pipe realize this is a 1,300 foot run?
$11,000 after using the wrong product once sure makes me hope that going cheap on the wrong type of pipe a second time doesn't result in this happening again.
CobyRupert
Super Member
Why would anybody want to enter into a contract with a provider (be it a water utility or phone service), even if it a $10/month bill, if by no negligence of your own, or by theft or negligence of others, or by an act of God, you are now responsible for a life changing (and even future generations changing) bill of $11,000, $50,000 or even $200,000?
This seems like a sucker deal.
In the case of a water utility, you don't really have a choice to not enter into this "deal". So is it really a contract?
This seems like a sucker deal.
In the case of a water utility, you don't really have a choice to not enter into this "deal". So is it really a contract?
Streetcar
Veteran Member
In Texas they use a thin wall black poly pipe
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Yeah, we haven't figured out that there are other types or thickness of poly pipe here. Or maybe Texas and just about every other state in the country has figured out that pipe with gaskets in it slides in and out when the soil moves, which means fewer leaks?
What do they use in Ohio for water mains and new housing developments? How much do you want to be that it's not black poly pipe?
jabelding
Gold Member
Just for info a 1/2" hole with 80psi behind it will flow 45 GPM simple orifice calculation. Many municipal water systems are over 80 psi at the street so I would say the quantity is correct for the hole you have.
Streetcar
Veteran Member
I had a house with poly supply
Currently I work and live in the city of Cincinnati with ductile iron main and copper supply lines
Currently I work and live in the city of Cincinnati with ductile iron main and copper supply lines
Streetcar
Veteran Member
I forgot about concrete distribution mains
ning
Elite Member
Given that the fault of leaks lies with the builder, I'd be reticent to use a "once-in-a-lifetime" bill reduction to his advantage - he should use have to call in one of his favors to deal with the money. OP should make sure he comes out with that bill reduction still available in the future.
cat fever
Elite Member
First off; Thanks to you and your wife for your service.:thumbsup:
I read most of the thread; I would not rule out a lighting strike as 2 other posters have said. However that doesn't help you out at all.
I second using poly pipe. I personally have the blue pipe with compression fittings.
It's hard to believe that more people don't use "Christies Red Hot Blue Glue" for PVC. It's the best.:2cents:
I read most of the thread; I would not rule out a lighting strike as 2 other posters have said. However that doesn't help you out at all.
I second using poly pipe. I personally have the blue pipe with compression fittings.
It's hard to believe that more people don't use "Christies Red Hot Blue Glue" for PVC. It's the best.:2cents:
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daugen
Epic Contributor
living in coastal NC also this experience gives me the willies. I can't imagine my 29 dollar water bill going to 5 or 10 thousand and be held responsible.
Motivates me to ask the city water dept what their policy is. I have pipe runs well over a 1000 feet from the road.
as far as homeowner insurance, unlikely. "sudden and accidental" leakage is covered, at least damage it causes, but not "continuous and repeated leakage" which pretty much defines this situation. Often there are exclusions for economic loss not caused by physically damaging something. Now a homeowners warranty, much more likely, depends upon the fine print. Either way, I'm hoping for a happy ending here with the builder replacing the pipe more professionally this time and squaring the water bill. The builders reputation is worth a lot more than this pipe, particularly if he knows he cut corners and that could be proved in court.
Motivates me to ask the city water dept what their policy is. I have pipe runs well over a 1000 feet from the road.
as far as homeowner insurance, unlikely. "sudden and accidental" leakage is covered, at least damage it causes, but not "continuous and repeated leakage" which pretty much defines this situation. Often there are exclusions for economic loss not caused by physically damaging something. Now a homeowners warranty, much more likely, depends upon the fine print. Either way, I'm hoping for a happy ending here with the builder replacing the pipe more professionally this time and squaring the water bill. The builders reputation is worth a lot more than this pipe, particularly if he knows he cut corners and that could be proved in court.
Let's be clear that "poly" refers to a lot of different things.
Poly Butylene is a product with wide spread use many decades ago. It has a problem of becoming brittle and flaking from the inside out due to exposure to chlorine in municipal water supplies. The high failure rate of poly butylene has given all poly a bad name.
Polyethylene and better yet, High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) is a much different product. It does not react to chlorine and other chemicals that can be present in water supplies. It is flexible and exceptionally durable.
I would absolutely recommend using the appropriate pressure class HDPE for long water supply runs. If it were mine I would use 500' rolls. At every joint along the long run I would install a brass 1/4 turn ball valve with integrated barbed fittings. I would clamp the line to the fittings with stepless (continuous band) Oetiker clamps (two per barb with the crips offsets from each other.
For reference, the City I am in does not use gasketed PVC pipe for it's water supply system. They use gasketed ductile iron mains and copper or HDPE service lines.
Poly Butylene is a product with wide spread use many decades ago. It has a problem of becoming brittle and flaking from the inside out due to exposure to chlorine in municipal water supplies. The high failure rate of poly butylene has given all poly a bad name.
Polyethylene and better yet, High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) is a much different product. It does not react to chlorine and other chemicals that can be present in water supplies. It is flexible and exceptionally durable.
I would absolutely recommend using the appropriate pressure class HDPE for long water supply runs. If it were mine I would use 500' rolls. At every joint along the long run I would install a brass 1/4 turn ball valve with integrated barbed fittings. I would clamp the line to the fittings with stepless (continuous band) Oetiker clamps (two per barb with the crips offsets from each other.
For reference, the City I am in does not use gasketed PVC pipe for it's water supply system. They use gasketed ductile iron mains and copper or HDPE service lines.
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