$11,000 Water Bill

[stuckmotor]

You might need an attorney for this

 

[justinramani]

Yeah -I'm sure we will, but I need a plan to get it fixed regardless. I'm not going to sit around and wait for another $11,000 water bill.

 

[turnkey4099]

I've never heard of PEX being that large. I've only seen it used for indoor water/heating systems (my home) replacing copper. You'd have to check to see if that size is available and suitable for in ground installation.

Dunno if it's ok but a plumber patched a leak in my pvc line with it, buried 3' deep. It was an awkward double 45pvc to get the line up to the level of the house input. Dirt settling broke the pvc.

 

[Redlands Okie]

I understand the urgency of getting it fixed.

However, from what the OP has posted this is a builder responsibility issue with little doubt. The builder hired the plumber and the builder has provided a warranty. Case closed.

Since the builder does not seem to want to replace the pipe then you need to get this into court right now. It's much easier to handle all of this legal stuff if its started while the work is still under warranty. And keep in mind once its fixed you still need a warranty for the replacement work. It seems it been repaired several times already.

Why are you waiting till the warranty is over? Your out of the area and your wife has her hands full. You and the wife seem to have access to on base legal resource. Get them moving on this problem. Your $11,000 dollar water bill is possibly just the start of your water expenses. If its leaked before it will be likely to leak again.

Any repairs you do or have done could easily void the warranty I suspect. So be sure to stress the repair work was done so as to keep the home habitable and legal to live in for your wife and kids. Running water being required in many areas to be allowed to legally occupy a home.

There are probably several ways to CORRECTLY run water to the house. PVC or Poly pipe. You just need to be sure its done right this time and has a warranty.

It may be a pain and not convenient but can the water meter be turned off and on each day when you all are not at home ?

 

[Deere Dude]

I know this is going to probably sound crazy, but what are the chances that a plumber can run 1.5 inch 200 psi roll pipe through the existing 2 inch line??? He would need to remove any sections of the pvc had have been repaired, but as long as the od of the 1.5 hdpe is less than the ID of the pvc it should work in theory..... any thoughts?

If you do anything on your own the plumber will gladly just bow out. I am a fan of 180# black poly and was thinking about your situation and the fix you suggested. You won't get a roll of poly 1300 feet long and the 3 or 4 connections would not slide through a 2" pipe.

It really is up to the builder to fix it right and sadly he may just fix the spot and call it a day, hoping that is all the leaks. Then another month later the warranty is off and you would be screwed big time.

I ran black poly to 3 different houses and to barns with distances up to a couple hundred feet and in dirt rock crap soil. No problems in 30 years. In fact the only problem I had with any plumbing is in my current house with CPVC cracking inside the crawl space.

If you are below the frost line and sandy soil I would not hesitate to use black poly. I would use a smaller pipe, maybe 1-1/4" and crank the incoming pressure up to 100# approx. and put another regulator at the house end and set to 50# or so. Saves on pipe material and a lot fewer joints, maybe 3 or 4 total. You need 4 full stainless steel clamps on each joint.

 

[kenmac]

My bet is , you won't get it inserted very far. If you are the type that has good luck, it will insert all the way. I'm never that lucky

 

[dragoneggs]

My bet is , you won't get it inserted very far. If you are the type that has good luck, it will insert all the way. I'm never that lucky

I say no way... too much friction over that distance. Maybe if you can get a string through via vacuum... then a stronger wire back the other way secure to pipe after smoothing the sharp edge on the poly. If there are any inside seams it will surely hang. Just my :2cents:

 

[Creamer]

For me Black Poly is the only thing - with brass fittings. I just replaced my 1200' run that was put in in 1973. The pipe was fine but the nylon fittings were cracking. We went with black poly with brass fittings. that is all they use around here.

Where I grew up in SD we ran water 1.5 miles in black poly pipe 6' deep Dad put it in in the mid 60's and it has never been touched and it has not had a problem. The rural water system they put in about 15 years ago out there was all done with black poly pipe knifed in.

 

[Oldoak]

For me Black Poly is the only thing - with brass fittings. I just replaced my 1200' run that was put in in 1973. The pipe was fine but the nylon fittings were cracking. We went with black poly with brass fittings. that is all they use around here.

Where I grew up in SD we ran water 1.5 miles in black poly pipe 6' deep Dad put it in in the mid 60's and it has never been touched and it has not had a problem. The rural water system they put in about 15 years ago out there was all done with black poly pipe knifed in.

:thumbsup: 100%

 

[check]

If you do anything on your own the plumber will gladly just bow out. I am a fan of 180# black poly and was thinking about your situation and the fix you suggested. You won't get a roll of poly 1300 feet long and the 3 or 4 connections would not slide through a 2" pipe. It really is up to the builder to fix it right and sadly he may just fix the spot and call it a day, hoping that is all the leaks. Then another month later the warranty is off and you would be screwed big time. I ran black poly to 3 different houses and to barns with distances up to a couple hundred feet and in dirt rock crap soil. No problems in 30 years. In fact the only problem I had with any plumbing is in my current house with CPVC cracking inside the crawl space. If you are below the frost line and sandy soil I would not hesitate to use black poly. I would use a smaller pipe, maybe 1-1/4" and crank the incoming pressure up to 100# approx. and put another regulator at the house end and set to 50# or so. Saves on pipe material and a lot fewer joints, maybe 3 or 4 total. You need 4 full stainless steel clamps on each joint.

But what about when the stainless steel clamps finally do rest? Down there however many feet, how can you protect them from the elements?

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks to you and your wife for your ongoing service to our Country.

I want to paint a different picture for you to look at: You hired a builder who built a house for your family, which came with a guarantee meant to protect you from exactly this type of nightmare. Your builder likely has liability insurance which is what he buys to keep him protected if something goes wrong on a job. He hires sub-contractors who may or more likely do not have insurance.
You need to exercise your rights to hold the builder and his subs to the standards set forth in the contract you have with him. If this entails suing him, his company, and his sub(s), then that is your course of remedy. You can worry about 'going nuclear', OR you can start the necessary process for solution to this problem.
Your water company looks to you to pay the bill. You look to your builder to pay the bill AND rectify the cause of the leak, PERMANENTLY.

All the discussion about cause, pipe type, glue being old or new etc. is just distractions from what you need to focus on. Not saying it's not useful, but it's not to the point that the builder needs to stand behind his work and correct the error, REGARDLESS of what it is/was, or who caused it.

Now, the question arises as to what the County you reside in REQUIRES for licenses, inspection(s), pipe type, burial depth, medium in which the pipe is buried, (sand surround), and whatever other specs they have for your type of water main service to your residence. If those requirements weren't met, inspections weren't done, or there aren't records filed with the State/County, as required, this is ammunition for your case with the builder's insurance company.
Always look for deep pockets, and sue until you are done and things are set right. Use your Jag access to get it done. This water bill will either get eaten by your builder's insurance or a settlement between them and the water co. You should not incur any costs related to this situation IF you do what is necessary to hold those responsible, responsible.
As stated, keep records of every call, email, text and whatever your wife can acquire from the builder, the County and State, etc.
Come back here to report progress, ask questions, etc.
Good luck. We're with you.:thumbsup:

 

[Sigarms]

Thanks to you and your wife for your ongoing service to our Country.

I want to paint a different picture for you to look at: You hired a builder who built a house for your family, which came with a guarantee meant to protect you from exactly this type of nightmare. Your builder likely has liability insurance which is what he buys to keep him protected if something goes wrong on a job. He hires sub-contractors who may or more likely do not have insurance.
You need to exercise your rights to hold the builder and his subs to the standards set forth in the contract you have with him. If this entails suing him, his company, and his sub(s), then that is your course of remedy. You can worry about 'going nuclear', OR you can start the necessary process for solution to this problem.
Your water company looks to you to pay the bill. You look to your builder to pay the bill AND rectify the cause of the leak, PERMANENTLY.

All the discussion about cause, pipe type, glue being old or new etc. is just distractions from what you need to focus on. Not saying it's not useful, but it's not to the point that the builder needs to stand behind his work and correct the error, REGARDLESS of what it is/was, or who caused it.

Now, the question arises as to what the County you reside in REQUIRES for licenses, inspection(s), pipe type, burial depth, medium in which the pipe is buried, (sand surround), and whatever other specs they have for your type of water main service to your residence. If those requirements weren't met, inspections weren't done, or there aren't records filed with the State/County, as required, this is ammunition for your case with the builder's insurance company.
Always look for deep pockets, and sue until you are done and things are set right. Use your Jag access to get it done. This water bill will either get eaten by your builder's insurance or a settlement between them and the water co. You should not incur any costs related to this situation IF you do what is necessary to hold those responsible, responsible.
As stated, keep records of every call, email, text and whatever your wife can acquire from the builder, the County and State, etc.
Come back here to report progress, ask questions, etc.
Good luck. We're with you.:thumbsup:

In NC, for building of any residential structure, permits need to be pulled. That's simple.

The not so simple part is who is going to cover the 11k and ensure that it doesn't happen again.

From a HVAC standpoint, manufacturers cover their butt per their warranties, as electrical usage is generally not covererd if one substains a increase in electricy with a new HVAC system. The contractors "eat it" per their mistake on a electric bill from my own experience "if" something is done wrong per wiring.

For the OP's case, I personally believe the water company is as much as fault as the builder. Since I'm not on a water line, I'm assuming water bills come monthly? I would respectfully argue that the water company should have software in place to track water useage and that if a residential dwelling shows a substantial increase in usage, it is the water companies responsibility to ask or find out why the usage is so high in comparison to other similar residential usage in the area.

This is where public opinion and media pressure could help resolve the situation rather than resort to the legal process.

Legal process is the very last resort. Have a feeling the insurance carrier may have a cluase about electrical or water usage rates just as HVAC manufacturers do, but don't know that for a fact. People also tend to clam up when legal proceedings are threatened because they won't want to hang themselves by doing anything.

Because I see the water company being as at much fault as the builder for letting the water bill go so high. I do see this as being a "news worthy" story that a paper or TV station would find interesting given the circumstances, and the one thing that no one wants (contractor, ultility company or the state of NC) is bad press. I have the feeling if a news station or paper started asking questions, things could get resolved quickly beind the scenes so the story doesn't make the light of day and the situation is resolved.

Ultimately, it seems the contractor is standing behind the warranty by trying to fix it, again, it comes down to that outstanding 11k bill and who is going to cover it. Then again, if it goes to court, perhaps the insurance company of the contractor will go after the municipal water company. Anyway you cut it, legal proceedings can be long, drawn out, and in the end, could still end up costing you let along the time and aggravation.

What's it take to make a couple of phone calls to the local paper or TV station? They need news to fill up spots, and again, I would consider a 11k water bill pretty newsworthy to the general public (who on water line wants a 11k bill for residential use?).

 

[justinramani]

In NC, for building of any residential structure, permits need to be pulled. That's simple.

The not so simple part is who is going to cover the 11k and ensure that it doesn't happen again.

From a HVAC standpoint, manufacturers cover their butt per their warranties, as electrical usage is generally not covererd if one substains a increase in electricy with a new HVAC system. The contractors "eat it" per their mistake on a electric bill from my own experience "if" something is done wrong per wiring.

For the OP's case, I personally believe the water company is as much as fault as the builder. Since I'm not on a water line, I'm assuming water bills come monthly? I would respectfully argue that the water company should have software in place to track water useage and that if a residential dwelling shows a substantial increase in usage, it is the water companies responsibility to ask or find out why the usage is so high in comparison to other similar residential usage in the area.

This is where public opinion and media pressure could help resolve the situation rather than resort to the legal process.

Legal process is the very last resort. Have a feeling the insurance carrier may have a cluase about electrical or water usage rates just as HVAC manufacturers do, but don't know that for a fact. People also tend to clam up when legal proceedings are threatened because they won't want to hang themselves by doing anything.

Because I see the water company being as at much fault as the builder for letting the water bill go so high. I do see this as being a "news worthy" story that a paper or TV station would find interesting given the circumstances, and the one thing that no one wants (contractor, ultility company or the state of NC) is bad press. I have the feeling if a news station or paper started asking questions, things could get resolved quickly beind the scenes so the story doesn't make the light of day and the situation is resolved.

Ultimately, it seems the contractor is standing behind the warranty by trying to fix it, again, it comes down to that outstanding 11k bill and who is going to cover it. Then again, if it goes to court, perhaps the insurance company of the contractor will go after the municipal water company. Anyway you cut it, legal proceedings can be long, drawn out, and in the end, could still end up costing you let along the time and aggravation.

What's it take to make a couple of phone calls to the local paper or TV station? They need news to fill up spots, and again, I would consider a 11k water bill pretty newsworthy to the general public (who on water line wants a 11k bill for residential use?).

The local media is definitely interested in the story. My wife got a text from the builder today - so I called him back. He was upset the he had received a BBB complaint. He is saying that the line will be replaced and that he is working with the utility company. He didn't say he was going to take responsibility for the bill. I told him that I didn't care what him and the utility company work out - I'm not going to get stuck with the bill. He seemed motivated today to get this BBB complaint removed. I guess we will see what he works out over the next few days.

 

[Sigarms]

The local media is definitely interested in the story. My wife got a text from the builder today - so I called him back. He was upset the he had received a BBB complaint. He is saying that the line will be replaced and that he is working with the utility company. He didn't say he was going to take responsibility for the bill. I told him that I didn't care what him and the utility company work out - I'm not going to get stuck with the bill. He seemed motivated today to get this BBB complaint removed. I guess we will see what he works out over the next few days.

Good:thumbsup:

Just remember, always play the victim. You did get screwed over, but the key is not to get pissed with the people your dealing with unless they refuse to do anything, and even then, when dealing with the press, don't be mad, just ask everyone what would they do if they were in your shoes?

Ask your builder what he needs help with from you to work with the utility company. Personally, If I were the builder, I'd be pissed that the water company let the water bill get so high dollar wise (come on, $11,000????!!). Let the builder know you're on HIS side in trying to get this resolved with per the water company. Heck, let the water company know your on their side as well, but at the same time, an 11k bill?? Really??? If I were the builder, I'd sue the water company, but perhaps the builder can use the press to his advantage to press against the water company.

Then again, if the builder got some jackleg to dig the trench and lay the pipe and didn't get any permits to do so on a new construction home, he should start feeling the pressure of his mistake. Then again, if the water company could of notified you of some sort of warning due to usage (help warning you there was a leak), the bill wouldn't of been 11k.

I just know when I'm in the position to help people, the last thing I want to hear about is a lawsuit, as at that point, I'd gladly walk away from it and let the court deal with it because then I don't want to get involved because I'm being threatened.

If the press is interested in the story, remember, I really do think the water company is at fault as well, even more than the builder because they let the water bill get so high. Again, NO ONE in this story is going to be wanted to be painted in a light as showing not wanting to work with you. Ultimately, you should only owe your avererage water bill, not 11k. The trick is to be nice while at the same time trying to work the system in your favor.

I can assure you, your wife on TV with a one year old in her arms while you're away in a combat zone is press that NO ONE wants to be involved in or a part of with your family getting screwed over with by a 11k bill unless if they "come to your rescue". Then bad press gets turned into good press.

 

[Rustyiron]

Nope - through some research this week it looks like the builder dropped in the line before the inspector ever came out. Also pretty sure that it wasn't installed by a licensed plumber. The same guy that did the grading/road install ditched the line and put in the pipe....

This ^^ may also put the county/town "on the hook" for some responsibility if the "inspector" let this slide.

 

[Sigarms]

This ^^ may also put the county/town "on the hook" for some responsibility if the "inspector" let this slide.

And I believe a good reporter would be asking those questions.

If the news starts digging, there seems to be a lot of blame to go around as to why this happened (including the water company). I really do believe this slipped through the county inspections department, and I can assure you, the state inspections department does NOT like bad press because they need to justify their job, and this is unacceptable on a new construction job.

New home build, contractor has guy digging ditch lay water pipe, no permit pulled, inspections department apparently not involved, and the water company lets the bill get up to 11k.

This is a story I really do believe ANY news organization would love to investigate. Start having a news organization start calling the water company and state inspections department, and you might be amazed at how quick this gets taken care of without the need for laywers.

The only question I have and I don't think it was answered...the 11k bill is for how long and when was the OP notified?

 

[ray66v]

The work doesn't necessarily have to be done by a licensed plumber.

At least around here, an installer who is not personally licensed, can do work under someone who is licensed.

The licensed person is on the hook for the job though.

 

[Oldoak]

And in my area, construction, including electrical and plumbing doesn't have to be done by or under the supervision of a licensed contractor. Just as long as all the work is inspected by our local county code enforcement officer and meets or exceeds our new stringent state codes that took affect several years ago.

Now in our urban areas around the state, which unions control, all such construction must be done by licensed contractors and cost really big bucks. I feel those residents are really taken advantage of. But that's an entirely different topic.

 

[Coyote machine]

I completely disagree with the water co being on the hook for anything. They provide water at a price to residences and are responsible for accurate meters and readings, etc. Their job is not to babysit every residence in terms of consumption. They are a publically owned utility, or in some cases a privately owned water company, and as either provide certain services to the public. You, the OP are part of that public. A leak past their meter is NOT their responsibility; it is on YOU, and up the food chain, to the builder and County/State inspectors etc.

Whether your excessive water bill, due to a leak caused by someone on the contractor's payroll is a newsworthy story is debatable. You have recourse under the law and IMHO, that is where your energy should be focussed. Why else have a warranty to begin with? You are paying for the warranty - you should use it to get you what you need. You don't need your wife and child on display in the public eye.

The law is what matters here and it is what will get your builder to do what he should have done originally- install the correct water line, pulled all relevant permits and have whoever was responsible to inspect and sign off on the job do so. This is what contractors/builders do. Their checklist to check off each box as your agent in building your house. Anything less is unacceptable.
I'm not saying you have to follow through on litigation, UNLESS the threat of a lawsuit doesn't bring things around. It is entirely possible that if the builder is concerned about a BBB complaint, that you having your case lined up in case things don't get resolved to your satisfaction will enable you to persuade him to do the right thing without going to court. BUT, if you're not prepared to go the distance, further cob-job workmanship may occur to get you past the time limit on the builder's warranty.
Playing the 'victim' is a bogus approach, and not one I would ever consider. Just because your builder screwed up and you received the bill for his screw-up doesn't make you a victim. It makes you someone who needs to stand up and take names, and force the responsible party, your builder to put the situation right.
You weren't robbed, you have a warranty that you are paying good money for, and now you need to exercise your warranty rights.
Forget the media, they're a waste of time and resources; your and your wife's time.

 

[dragoneggs]

A well run water company does have alerts in their billing system that checks for high water usage. In my case, they auto compare each month with previous year month usage and send you a note if there is any kind of spike. I am curious how this bill jumped by $11K in one month or if the bills were piling up and no one was watching. Good news with the builder... looks like progress. Keep pressing for complete resolution. I think I would be talking to the water company about their policies and their leak notification service if they have one. Mine does. Good luck and thanks for your service to our country!