Pick Your Battles - House Contractor Rant

[Beltzington]

Over the last several weeks I have spent over $14K remodeling a house purchased for my elderly parents to live in. Because I am in a hurry did get it finished I hired contractors to do work I could do myself and also figured professionals would do a better job than I could. Other than the HVAC replacement done by someone I have used for years, this assumption has proved false, the plumbers who did do a good job finishing the shower rough charged me $240 for less than one hour of work and $20 dollars in parts, having been quoted $90/hour when I hired them when I asked why the extra I was told they charged from the time they left and returned to the shop, so I paid them $90 for a one hour drive. The sheetrock guy I believe purposely tried to use standard drywall after I told him I wanted blue board in the bathroom, left his workers unsupervised when he told me he would be onsite the entire time and then when I asked him to come back and finish skimming 10 of tape left undone he explained they never mudded tape that would be behind the shower surround. The tile guys did a beautiful job laying the pattern but the slope of the walk-in shower still has me wondering if it will drain into the drain or out into the bathroom floor they also did a very poor job of cleaning after grouting. Lastly the shower door installers did not arrive when I was told they would be here, did not call let me know what was going on and while I am very happy with the glass shower door install I just noticed they gouged the freshly painted drywall in three places when they were moving the doors.

None of these contractors were the low bids, all of them were employees of the company not outsourced, and two of them were recommended by someone I know very well. It seems you can't pay someone enough to do a top shelf job anymore; all they seem to excel at is cashing the check. The entire approach of the owners is tell you what you want to hear, do the work as cheaply and quickly as they can and make the customer find the problems and come back and fix them if absolutely necessary.

Is this the general state of affairs in the remolding world or is it just me? Should they have to fix every minor issue or do you just fix it yourself and forgo the headache?

 

[kcflhrc]

I cringe every time I have to hire something done. I will work all day to save $100. I have been pretty lucky so far, biggest thing was a new roof and they did a fantastic job. Way outside my ability and I have no idea how they made any money. There were 5 guys there for 4 full days working from sun up to sun down and the bill was $11,250.

 

[roadhunter]

When homeowners decide to be General Contractors. LOL

You can save the fees charged by a GC if you choose to do it yourself but all those headaches come along with the responsibility. GC's are essentially just contractor babysitters. Making them do the job right, making them show up, clean up, etc....

Contractors have earned their reputation.

 

[Thall303]

I cringe every time I have to hire something done. I will work all day to save $100. I have been pretty lucky so far, biggest thing was a new roof and they did a fantastic job. Way outside my ability and I have no idea how they made any money. There were 5 guys there for 4 full days working from sun up to sun down and the bill was $11,250.

View attachment 490954

Nice home and yard

 

[kcflhrc]

Nice home and yard

Thank you, it has been 3 years of nothing but remodel and repair. I think the house had the original 1970 carpet in it.

 

[Raspy]

I'm afraid your story is not uncommon. Somehow, you have to find people you can trust or communicate well with, or that have a fine reputation with trusted neighbors and friends.

Unfortunately, you can't spell out everything in a contract that might include common sense, politeness and ability.

If contractors are good, they are probably busy and then they are stressed. They too, are relying on their employees for good behavior. When contractors are not much good, they can easily talk a good game.

Paying someone from portal to portal is not uncommon and it sometimes seems too expensive. Get quotes for the entire job, not just the hourly rate. To give them some credit, being in business is complicated and expensive. Employees can be very difficult and they are always being paid if they are on the clock, whether they are on the job or not. Then there's insurance and other overhead that must be factored in.

Never pay in full until you are satisfied with the completed work. Mistakes, like gouged walls are not your fault and you should not pay for them. If you have to bring the painter back to fix the gouge from the door guys, you can subtract the extra from the door guy's bill.

Finally, if you hire all the subs yourself, you are the General Contractor and you set the tone for the entire job. If you hire a general and pay him, you can force him to set the tone for quality and he must answer to you for the final product. Then you don't have to deal with all the individuals who are in a hurry and don't know you. Choosing a higher price and thinking that will give you a better outcome is a false comparison. Higher end equipment will be more expensive, but better workmanship isn't. When you try to tell a professional how to do his job (taping joints for instance) you are inviting conflict.

It seems in your case, at least partially, you had a different idea of how the work was to be done than the professionals you hired. I often see this where someone expects me to do something their way and I have to explain it must be done my way to get the outcome we all want, and it must cost what I bid because there is more to it than they realize. But, I have also seen contractors try to shortcut work on my house and it left a lasting impression where I sent them on their way and never had them back. I've also recommended people stay away from them.

Contractors don't realize their most important form of advertising is word-of-mouth and that that comes form communication and caring about your work.

 

[ch1ch2]

Is this the general state of affairs in the remolding world or is it just me? Should they have to fix every minor issue or do you just fix it yourself and forgo the headache?

Yes this is it.
Construction is one job most convicts can get.
There are some great people in construction...... but, they are very hard to find and usually charge a lot.

 

[JRobyn]

I am a perfectionist so I like things done properly. That's a big part of the reason that I did a huge chunk of our house finishing. I did contract out the sheetrock, tile, hardwood, DWV plumbing. My contractors were all VERY well recommended and respected in the area. Most of them were associated with the high-end builder we used to frame and dry in.

All of that is to say that my "subs" were not perfect, but pretty da*n good, and that's ok with me. The thing I have come to realize is that to do it the way I LIKE (perfection) takes a HUGE amount of time, a luxury that contractors cannot enjoy if they intend to survive. They MUST be as quick as possible, and that usually leads to just a bit of non-perfection;-)

 

[PJSprog]

We are starting a huge remodeling project at our house in a couple of weeks. Even just the events leading up to getting a final start date have been an incredible eye-opener for us. If any of the companies I've worked for over the years were as lax about communication and on-time-delivery as these contractors - all of whom are considered top-tier in our area - they would have been out of business in very short order. I am amazed at the lackadaisical attitude that seems to pervade that industry. Our original target was end of August, got moved to September, then to November, and now the week after Xmas. I mean, how do you get your scheduling so wrong? Four months?! Our upstairs kitchen has been torn out since July in anticipation of this. It's definitely frustrating.

Lessons learned. Should we ever do this again, we'll definitely do it through a GC.

 

[downsizingnow48]

I worked as a residential building contractor in southern California, doing mostly remodeling. Remodeling is more of a learning experience, always a new situation. I learned a lot about the trades and even more about people. People are the hard part. Still enjoy the work. I do everything myself except roofing and HVAC. This morning:

 

[roadhunter]

Another issue with many remodels is there are no drawings, specifications, architect, etc.. in many cases to spell out exactly what is required so the contractor ends up making those decisions because the average homeowner has no clue how things should be done. Contractor is almost always going to make decisions that are best for him and not for everyone else involved.

Another sign this isn't going to work is the homeowner having work done without getting a bid. Calling a plumber and asking for a hourly rate and then scheduling work is a recipe for disaster. Should have gotten a plumbing bid for all the plumbing on the project, not try to do things an hour of work at a time.

GC's have better control over contracts due to long term relationships and working together on past projects as well as plans and specifications that the contractors are to follow as well as the ability to chargeback costs incurred due to problems the contractor causes. Homeowners typically pay up front, have no plans/spec's, and no clout with the contractor to make them do thier job. The average homeowner has no business trying to be in charge of a construction project.

 

[KennyG]

Thank you, it has been 3 years of nothing but remodel and repair. I think the house had the original 1970 carpet in it.

I can identify with that. Our house was built in 1976 and seemed to be in a time capsule when we bought it. A good General Contractor, our sweat equity and a year of work brought it up to date (except the kitchen, which my wife can't quite make the decisions on.)

 

[Deere Dude]

My son had a recommended builder build a really nice house in northern Wisconsin. He made a change with the GC. I wanted the 150' driveway widened from 14' to 18' or something like that and it was okayed. The driveway was put in and when he came home he noticed something odd. The concrete driveway stopped about 6 feet from the frontage road, with gravel finishing it off. He questioned the oddity and the GC said he only paid for so many square feet, but he would be glad to finish for an additional amount. I don't know the conversation between them but the contractor should have either told him it would cost extra, whch wouldn't have been a problem or the sub screwed up. Just though it strange that could happen.

 

[kcflhrc]

I can identify with that. Our house was built in 1976 and seemed to be in a time capsule when we bought it. A good General Contractor, our sweat equity and a year of work brought it up to date (except the kitchen, which my wife can't quite make the decisions on.)

My wife spent weeks trying to decide on the kitchen cabinets, counter top and back splash. I finally got so tired of it I told her I was going to go order the stuff. She coincidentally made up her mind that day. Same thing with the appliances, I finally had to give her an ultimatum. Either get the appliances ordered or I will. How women can take so long to make up their minds is beyond me.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Another issue with many remodels is there are no drawings, specifications, architect, etc.. in many cases to spell out exactly what is required so the contractor ends up making those decisions because the average homeowner has no clue how things should be done. Contractor is almost always going to make decisions that are best for him and not for everyone else involved.

Another sign this isn't going to work is the homeowner having work done without getting a bid. Calling a plumber and asking for a hourly rate and then scheduling work is a recipe for disaster. Should have gotten a plumbing bid for all the plumbing on the project, not try to do things an hour of work at a time.

GC's have better control over contracts due to long term relationships and working together on past projects as well as plans and specifications that the contractors are to follow as well as the ability to chargeback costs incurred due to problems the contractor causes. Homeowners typically pay up front, have no plans/spec's, and no clout with the contractor to make them do thier job. The average homeowner has no business trying to be in charge of a construction project.

This thread reminds me of the calls I used to get from West Plano or North Dallas about a "wrought iron" gate repair.

"That little finger thingy has broken off my "wrought iron" gate, how much would you charge me to come and fix it?"

"Where are you located?"

"West Plano."

"$225.00 plus parts."

"Oh my GAWD!!!!! I didn't pay that much for the gate. Why so much?"

"Three hour minimum to cover driving time."

"You're only thirty minutes away."

Click, done.

They're an hour away. And I charge $75.00 per hour. I am busy and don't need or want the irritation of driving across town to help someone who was too cheap to pay to have it done right the first. Here in North Texas right now any decent contractor is at least a month out. We've had tornados, monster hail storms, and in the middle of a housing boom.

 

[PJSprog]

My wife spent weeks trying to decide on the kitchen cabinets, counter top and back splash. I finally got so tired of it I told her I was going to go order the stuff. She coincidentally made up her mind that day. Same thing with the appliances, I finally had to give her an ultimatum. Either get the appliances ordered or I will. How women can take so long to make up their minds is beyond me.

Just had this conversation with my Wife about 1/2 hour ago. Waited and waited and waited to decide on cabinets and countertop. She finally decided and ordered today. 8-10 weeks for delivery ... did I mention that construction begins the week after Xmas? :banghead:

 

[kcflhrc]

8-10 weeks for delivery ...

Ouch, we went with what they call semi custom cabinets, what ever that means, But everything was in stock and only took about 2 weeks for installation. These guys were good. 3 chinese guys did the cabinets, 3 hispanics did the counter tops and sink, and a black guy that was about 6' 5" 275 pounds did the tile back splash. They did it in a successive 3 day period. I was impressed with their work. We also did an island too which I ran power to. I did the flooring, paint and trim. Our kitchen backs up to our large attached garage so I recessed the refrigerator out into the garage. It turned out really nice. On another note, make sure you get soft close drawers and doors, makes a ton of difference.

 

[Deere Dude]

I have had problems with getting timely estimates and then the prices being nuts. I found I could do anything a contractor could or would do with a lot less aggravation if I would just do it myself and be done with it. Although times require a certain skill set that I couldn't just pick up and do it, then you just pay what they want.

For example, I wanted KalCore throughout my house, basement and first level. That is basically two thin coats of plaster with a troweled finish or design. I wouldn't try that but I wanted it so I got three estimates and all were very close, 47 cents a sq.ft. It was high but I went with it.

I installed the special sheetrock it needed and gave them a call to start. A week or two later the owner and a helper came out and really started throwing the mud up. The next day the owner stayed home and the worker came and worked all day. This kept up for about 3 weeks, which wasn't a problem because I am patient and he was doing a good job. On the last day both came out and both started trowling the finish on. I told the owner I only wanted the helper to finish because he had a certain design and I didn't want them to be mixed. It was okay to him. They cleaned up and he came marching in with the bill and asked who gets the damaged. I said I do. I looked at the bill and saw it was much higher than I expected, although I had no idea of what it should be..

I asked why the perceived discrepancy. He said he used 6 bags mud more than he planned. I said so what? He said that would have covered about a dozen sheets of drywall, and he figured at $.47 per foot on 12 4x12' drywall would come out to $500 plus the cost of the mud. I asked how much the mud cost a bad and he said $6.00.

I told him to lump it. It don't work that way. He said somebody has to pay for it so I told him I would pay for the 6 bags of extra mud he used. He squawked about that.

I told him, okay I have a ruler and will go around and measure every square inch of drywall they covered and he said, no that is fine and they up and left in a huff. I really think I would have owed him much less if I did measure it all, but I was happy with the work being done and think they came out all right. He was just trying to tap that well a little bit extra.

 

[downsizingnow48]

I asked him to come back and finish skimming 10 of tape left undone he explained they never mudded tape that would be behind the shower surround.

There are 6 levels of joint finishing ranging from 0 (just hang the sheetrock) to 5 (pretty much perfect). Level 1 is to embed the tape in joint compound. It is used in areas where nobody will see it and there are no other functional considerations. The trade spec details for all 6 levels are interesting to read. Search "joint finishing levels".

 

[Beltzington]

Interesting range of comments, I'm curious why the low expectations for construction supervision and craftsmanship are so readily accepted, put in another venue and they are very humorous.

Excuse me miss but the menu says the smoked salmon is $25 dollars and you charged me $65. Well sir the meal is only $25 but we had to overnight ship the fish and that is the extra $40. If you don't like it we are not interested in your business. Cheapskate!

Why yes sir we did charge you $500 dollars to change your radiator and yes there are several leaks but you should have known to hire a master mechanic to oversee our work to insure it was done satisfactorily. LOL!

Mister I do not know why you are so upset your accounting software is not working as intended. Had you learned C++ programming you would have found the bug and been able to tell us how to fix it we can't be expected to dumb down our communications to the lowest level. IDIOT!