Are Automakers This Stupid?

[buickanddeere]

the order of generally avalible fuels in order of clean burning to dirty is hydrogen, natural gas, propane, gasoline , kerosene , #1,2,3,4,5 and 6 fuel oil. Hence all those LP forklifts instead of diesel forklifts .

 

[Snobdds]

the order of generally avalible fuels in order of clean burning to dirty is hydrogen, natural gas, propane, gasoline , kerosene , #1,2,3,4,5 and 6 fuel oil. Hence all those LP forklifts instead of diesel forklifts .

Those are in a laboratory setting with ideal conditions and no pressure changes.

In an engine with varying compression ratios and high pressure fueling...all that goes out the window. The difference between port and direct injection changes the carbon output dramatically with the same underlying fuel source.

Technology gave us direct injection and technology will need to clean up the byproduct of direct injection.

 

[buickanddeere]

Direct injection provides the lowest emissions and highest fuel efficiency with gasoline vs port injection or a carburator .

 

[Snobdds]

Direct injection provides the lowest emissions and highest fuel efficiency with gasoline vs port injection or a carburator .

That is not true in any way. Period.

Mercedes is putting particulate filters on their direct injected gas motors because it's producing so many particulates. In order for direct injection to work, the combustion chamber must be pre-charged and that pre-charge goes right out the exhaust manifold to be partially burned in the cats.

 

[PJ The Kid]

I did a study in college, and I see it somewhat pertinent to the subject. We took a 5 gas analyzer and worked in partnership with a local trash fleet. The fleet analyst was of the idea that he could install propane injection systems and increase fuel efficiency and lower emissions. With the vehicle on a dyno we tried running it as a straight turbo diesel with the propane system turned off to gain a base line reading (don't ask me the numbers as it was about 5 concussions and 6 years ago) then we turned on the propane system and tuned the truck accordingly. The system was not standalone propane but set up as a power adder, We found that fuel efficiency on the dyno empty helo minimal gains, but particulate emissions and Co. emissions were reduced by a fair amount. On the other hand nOX emissions were substantially higher staying true to what we were taught about reducing emissions. When cO, particulate, and fuel use decrease, usually nOX increases.

Now loaded on the road was a somewhat different story for fuel mileage, we saw an average increase in milage when loaded and driving in the real word due to the engine having more power available. IE, not holding it to the floor for as long to attain speed with a load, or not having to use as much fuel to maintain speed on an incline.

This brings me to my point, there is always a happy medium between power, efficiency, and pollution. When you add to one, you take away from another, not including reliability which changes with all the above.

 

[PJ The Kid]

Also, a problem with direct injection is carbon build-up in the valves and intake ports. in a port injected engine, the fuel cleans the sealing face of the valves and the end of the intake ports. The ports and valves are dirty due to pcv being vented into the intake system as per EPA regulations. That is why may automakers are selling services such as walnut shell blasting the inductions system at certain mileage intervals, Also this carbon buildup decreases efficiency as it creates restriction and air turbulence in the induction system causing more un burnt fuel to exit thru the exhaust as particulate matter and cO, and C.

 

[3930dave]

Seems there is a lot of "stuff" going down the tailpipe, in "modern" gas engine designs.

First, it was the Sx oil that had to change, to protect the cats. My first question was "why is so much oil going down the tailpipe?". I had even a life-long fanboy of a particular brand laughing when I said that my theory was they had actually put 2 stroke truck motors into production, and just not told anybody. A modern 2 stroke probably would use less oil than what those engines were going through.

The big players always win. Manufacturers don't have an issue with complex expensive repairs, so long as they can be pushed past warranty. Many people won't pay more that 4 or 5 months worth of new-car payments to fix an older car, so the scenarios discussed tend to drive new car sales. Govts reap more taxes under all conditions.

Up until, people just stop driving. I know a few people in my age bracket who have given up for economic reasons. Young people, crammed into cities, with massive expenses just for parking, often don't even bother getting a license. So, like most things, there is an end-limit to what people will/can put up with.

Then there is DI. Not all designs are terrible, but I know I'd be furious about laying out big $ for a "modern" engine, and being stuck with 1960's era 2-stroke levels of maintenance. That's probably not being fair to 60's 2-strokes....

The other thing I find striking is that at the same time as DI engines were ramping up, tailpipe emission testing stopped, at least here. The program continues, but instead we now rely solely on on-board computer reporting. Anyone who has studied science at all understands the value of direct observation. We are supposed to be cleaning up the environment (allegedly), yet we have moved away from the dyno based tail-pipe sniffing that VW (and others) would not have been able to beat.

Some of the engineering going on here has nothing to do with mechanical, electrical, or chemical systems, and definitely not air quality. Unfortunately, most of the population today does not know enough about science to make these distinctions.

Rgds, D.

 

[PJ The Kid]

Just a point on the engineering. When smog laws first started getting hot, remember what they added to the cars and light trucks? AIR PUMPS. Take air from past the intake at the filter, and pump it in a few inches up stream of the cat converters, The theory was the added air (O2) would cause the converters to ignite and burn hotter to burn the particulate and complete the conversion of the semi-burnt fuel. Very similar to the 6.4 powerstrokes adding fuel into the DPF system. There is a difference between the said reasoning and the real reasoning, Pumping fresh air into the converter allowed more un burnt O2 to exit the exhaust system for the analyzer to sniff.

 

[Copperhead]

Well, Nikola is on target to release a electric semi truck that uses a NG turbine to drive a on board generator to replenish batteries. 2000 hp at the wheels. That will take care of some serious emissions from traditional semi trucks.

Nikola Motor gets $2.3B worth of preorders for 2,HP, electric semi-trailer truck | Computerworld

 

[DieselBound]

Well, Nikola is on target to release a electric semi truck that uses a NG turbine to drive a on board generator to replenish batteries. 2000 hp at the wheels. That will take care of some serious emissions from traditional semi trucks.

Nikola Motor gets $2.3B worth of preorders for 2,HP, electric semi-trailer truck | Computerworld

I'm still waiting for the flying cars we were all promised!:laughing:

While I'm sure that they can make one of these things work there's still the issue of whether it could be cost effective. Can't help but think that cargo capacity is going to be reduced: volumetric issue with NG.

At some point, as has been mentioned here, we need to step back and look at the big picture. How much emissions are being generated in the creation of these schemes, and how much more is going to be added for all the added maintenance?

Oh! And any time there's an accident you can expect that a hazmat team will be required.

 

[Copperhead]

You obviously did not read the article. The truck is electric and the NG turbine is just for regenerating the battery packs. 2000 real HP to the drive wheels. Designed for doing the standard 80,000 lb gross thing that the majority of semi trucks are used for. This is NOT one of those NG engine things that some of the LTL carriers are using now. NG for this is only for electric generation with a designed 1200 mile range. Packs can also be shore power charged when the truck is not working. And the design is such that cargo capacities are similar for current trucks. Still be able to throw 46K lb in the box and not exceed gross.

I like the idea. Quiet, full torque all the way at the start (electric drive motors have full torque at the start), and not a single gear shift to be found... manual or auto. Direct drive electric motor. The initial cost is pretty high as they have proposed, but you can bet some serious tax advantages from the Gooberment will be available and the cost for NG to operate the turbine generator will be roughly half the fuel cost currently. If it can be justified on paper, I will likely take a serious look at this one for my next semi truck.

Why would a hazmat team be required for cleanup for one of these? No fuel spills, even in a rollover. NG just dissipates. And the CNG tanks are up behind the sleeper, so any normal accidents, the tanks are not affected in any way. Propane will pool up along ground and be a flame hazard. NG dissipates.

 

[daugen]

Oh! And any time there's an accident you can expect that a hazmat team will be required.
I think that most hazmat responses have been to plain old diesel fuel leaking, anytime a truck overturns, seems they should improve
the integrity of those fuel tanks, that would be a good place to start.

EV cars are a whole Brave New World. Starting with the Priii, fire and rescue have had to learn how to deal with high voltage exposure in wrecked vehicles.
But so far, does not seem to be a problem. I got out when EV was coming in, but went to Philadelphia Gas & Electric class for firemen, and I loved the one guy who said
that sometimes the best response was in one word....RUN. Dealing with low lying gases, chlorine, etc etc, all hazmat stuff some of which without an approach suit even firemen with air pacs can get badly hurt. Train wrecks and bad interstate truck wrecks seem to be the major problem. But we've had this problem a long time, folks really don't want to know what's in those tank cars clank clanking by on the rails.

Propane will pool up along ground and be a flame hazard. NG dissipates.
lighter than air, heavier than air. I thought CNG/LNG/Propane was all the same; clearly it's not.
Can you explain Copperhead? This is a common hazard, most of us have propane at home in one form or another.
It's the stuff that pools at your feet that is seriously bad news when something sparks...

My foreign car mechanic says all kinds of Bosch fuel injector pumps are failing in the 50-80k mileage range due to accelerated wear, I think
due to ULSD, maybe due to design of common rail. But they are not holding up, and I would think that would be classified as part of the emission system and be covered out
to 100K, but maybe not.

Some of this tech being put on cars I don't think is tested enough. Rushing to meet a critical model year delivery, yeah we'll fix it at the first oil change...My Ram truck has been reflashed five times already.

Fork lifts, zero turns, older tractors, propane(maybe not the right term?) has been used a long time. I worked third shift in a Union Camp paper bag factory working my way through college and I'll never get the smell of that propane exhaust out of my memory. Now this is almost 50 years ago, I'll bet those fork lifts run cleaner now.

 

[rd_macgregor]

FWIW, Natural gas is mostly methane (a 1-carbon molecule) with varying quantities of other gases (like butane). Ethane is 2-carbon, propane is 3-carbon and butane is 4-carbon (and the series continues on). I think most of the typical gases in the alkane (methane) series are naturally odorless, so a mecaptan odorant is usually added to facilitate leak detection.
It is my understanding that LPG is a mixture of propane and butane.

 

[3930dave]

You obviously did not read the article. The truck is electric and the NG turbine is just for regenerating the battery packs. 2000 real HP to the drive wheels. Designed for doing the standard 80,000 lb gross thing that the majority of semi trucks are used for. This is NOT one of those NG engine things that some of the LTL carriers are using now. NG for this is only for electric generation with a designed 1200 mile range. Packs can also be shore power charged when the truck is not working. And the design is such that cargo capacities are similar for current trucks. Still be able to throw 46K lb in the box and not exceed gross.

I like the idea. Quiet, full torque all the way at the start (electric drive motors have full torque at the start), and not a single gear shift to be found... manual or auto. Direct drive electric motor. The initial cost is pretty high as they have proposed, but you can bet some serious tax advantages from the Gooberment will be available and the cost for NG to operate the turbine generator will be roughly half the fuel cost currently. If it can be justified on paper, I will likely take a serious look at this one for my next semi truck.

Why would a hazmat team be required for cleanup for one of these? No fuel spills, even in a rollover. NG just dissipates. And the CNG tanks are up behind the sleeper, so any normal accidents, the tanks are not affected in any way. Propane will pool up along ground and be a flame hazard. NG dissipates.

I am an NG fan. If my govts here were actually serious about the environment (instead of just green-washing taxes), we'd have a big push on building out public CNG refill stations. As you may know Cu, there has been some CNG build-out going on for the 401 corridor, Ontario and Quebec, to support commercial long-haul. Baby steps, but good to see.

NG is the cleanest burning hydro-carbon widely available, and as you well-stated, has safety advantages over propane, and for that matter, gasoline.

Rgds, D.

 

[daugen]

there is always a standing joke of sorts that too often products are designed to last until one day after the warranty runs out.
but even warranties seem to get trumped when parts of the car start to kill you, like Takata air bags sending metal shrapnel into your face.
Luckily for most of us there have not been problems with trucks, but the point is that now the automakers are putting components in cars that
can seriously malfunction and be downright dangerous to you outside of the warranty period. How about an adaptive cruise control that develops a mind of its own
and floors the pedal, and doesn't let up... The steering wheel in my Outback will tug itself and the car back to the center of the lane just by looking at the road lines.
I can only imagine what that will be like when it malfunctions. So much complexity, AI is here and what happens when HAL won't listen to you?

 

[pmsmechanic]

Just going to add here that propane is heavier than air and natural gas is lighter than air. That's why propane is more dangerous. Both produce about the same hp in an internal combustion engine.

 

[daugen]

I just reread HHR's original post and realize, mea culpa, we have gone far afield.
Downsizing engines, well look at Ford's turbo three. Mainstream three cylinders.
I read all the car tests, it's apparently ok. And I have to believe it runs cleanly and meets California standards.

could part of the "no replacement for displacement" which I sure grew up with have also
included the benefits of having that huge iron block to absorb heat? These little engines are all anorexic; there's a lot less metal
in them. But I have to assume offset by far superior cooling systems and more modern metallurgy. Maybe.

thanks for info on propane. Like gasoline, need to respect it.

 

[3930dave]

there is always a standing joke of sorts that too often products are designed to last until one day after the warranty runs out.
but even warranties seem to get trumped when parts of the car start to kill you, like Takata air bags sending metal shrapnel into your face.
Luckily for most of us there have not been problems with trucks, but the point is that now the automakers are putting components in cars that
can seriously malfunction and be downright dangerous to you outside of the warranty period. How about an adaptive cruise control that develops a mind of its own
and floors the pedal, and doesn't let up... The steering wheel in my Outback will tug itself and the car back to the center of the lane just by looking at the road lines.
I can only imagine what that will be like when it malfunctions. So much complexity, AI is here and what happens when HAL won't listen to you?

Not picking on Subbies (lots of good Mech engineering there), but a mechanic friend had a good example of what can Go Wrong.... Go Wrong,.....

Customer's wife tweaks the sideview mirror on the garage door frame going into the garage with their brand new Subaru. She's really upset, hubby downplays it, not to worry, etc...... He jumps in the car next morning to head to work, it won't start.

Had to be towed to the dealer to have the collision avoidance system reset, and that mirror fixed/re-calibrated.

Adding complexity adds failure modes. What cracks me up about this problem above is the life-style marketing associated with that product - I can picture jockeying the car around in the back of Algonquin park with a kayak on the roof, and tweaking that mirror system on a tree. With that "lifestyle", there are parts of Canada where you could be walking for a day or more before getting to a traveled road.

I watch little TV, so the plot line has probably already been done..... how long before somebody spoofs/hacks a car into "avoiding" a collision on a coastal highway and drives off a cliff ?

Rgds, D.

 

[daugen]

I'm sure Dave the car makers wish they never had to install all this safety stuff but the Feds now won't give your car a top safety rating unless you
have the collision avoidance/auto braking whatever each company wants to call it. And just like Tesla's teething problems, and you can't fix driver stupidity,
folks will abuse the system, read books, text, do anything but drive.
I'm also going to bet there's a whole new area of law that's going to crop up dealing with accidents involving auto AI.

 

[tcartwri]

Well, Nikola is on target to release a electric semi truck that uses a NG turbine to drive a on board generator to replenish batteries. 2000 hp at the wheels. That will take care of some serious emissions from traditional semi trucks.

Nikola Motor gets $2.3B worth of preorders for 2,HP, electric semi-trailer truck | Computerworld

Pretty cool. I wonder who backed that? Development cost must have been eye watering.