Skid Steer or Backhoe for digging a pond

[bjorn773]

We are clearing invasive honeysuckle and buckthorn on our property. It has completely taken over the understory. I've been using my Kubota to knock over the clusters of honeysuckle which pops the root ball out of the ground. Then I can get the bucket under them and lift. However, I have already broken my steering knuckle twice so I think I'm overstressing the front end. It seems like maybe a skid steer would be better suited for this work so I'm currently looking for a used unit. We'd also like to dig a decent size farm pond down the road. Would a skid or backhoe be better suited for this kind of work?

 

[jeff9366]

Ponds are usually located in damp areas or where there is a spring.

Anything with wheels will bog down to the axles. You need a TRACKED mini-excavator, preferably with a extended reach arm.

VIDEO: mini excavator pond - YouTube

 

[TripleR]

I suppose it depends on how big a pond you are talking as well as the mentioned ground condition. All of our ponds have consisted of digging down and creating a dam on the open end of a valley to catch water and dozers were used. Having used back hoes and skid steers I wouldn't choose either one and would go with a dozer or excavator.

We tried the skid steer as well as tractors on one project and by the time we figured fuel cost and wear and tear on the machines, we could have had it done or rented the proper equipment.

 

[EddieWalker]

For digging, you want the hoe stick at the back of a backhoe, or even better, and excavator. But digging the dirt is the easy part. Moving it is where you wear out machinery and spend all your time. A full sized backhoe will have a one yard or bigger front bucket. I dug my 3/4 acre pond with a 2 wheel drive full sized NH 555E backhoe It took several months of just going back and forth, in and out of that hole. And I just dumped the dirt close to the pond. I spend many more months moving that pile down to a field that I still have to smooth out ten years later.

When I dug my 4 1/2 acre pond, I bought a used 170 hp Case dozer to push all the dirt into a very long dam. The dam is half of the pond, so there was a lot of pushing. That took 2 years, but included rebuilding the engine and lots of weather delays. Of course, since I pushed the dirt into the dam, I only handled it once.

I rent skid steers all the time for jobs and realize they are useful for certain things, but overall, hate them. Horrible rid, small front bucket, very little traction on set dirt and zero suspension. I would never want to own one. The tracked ones would be better for the dirt, but still not my first choice for moving a lot of material.

If you can, dig the dirt with a backhoe or excavator and put it in a dump truck to haul it. The bigger the dump truck the better. Mine is only 5 yards, but it made moving the dirt from my 3/4 acre pond doable. It's not hard to dig a thousand yards of dirt, it's horrible moving it any distance at all. The amount of material you can move per trip is what gets it done!!!

 

[bjorn773]

Our property is all low with a creek running through it. The area that we are scoping out for the pond is quite a distance from the creek, yet always stays wet. We're thinking that there must be a spring under it. I was leaning toward a tracked skid due to the wet conditions, but maybe I would just end up getting that stuck.

 

[EddieWalker]

Be careful of springs. When conditions are wet, they are great, but when it gets dryer and the water table drops, that spring will lower the water level in a pond. How wooded is the area? I found that when I cleared the trees to dig my big pond, all the wet areas dried up. I have two springs that are just above water level on my pond, but they both flow so slow as to not matter. What did matter is that they where soft enough to swallow my dozer when I drove over them. At 40,000 pounds, you really don't want to get that thing stuck!!!!!

 

[sikmusicfreak8]

As stated, all depends on size. Ill be digging my pond with dozer (International TD-7E) and cleaning up with my Branson and backhoe. Mine will roughly be 150x80, with an island, so I wont be moving too much dirt, and the dirt I do move will be used to build dirt bike jumps and a Maverick course. Still looking to buy a dump trailer, but nobody ever sells those **** things used...

If you're doing a pond of significant size, rent some big iron and get an excavator. Best bang for the buck, fast, and effective.

 

[gsganzer]

When I had my pond dug, they used a combination of two machines, an excavator and a dozer. The excavator would loosen the soil and the dozer would push it out. This seemed like a pretty efficient use of the strengths of each machine. Excavators can dig, but they don't move a lot of material. A dozer can push a fair amount of loose material, but a dozer tears it's drive line up when turning while pushing. Think of the pond being the hub of a bicycle wheel, the dozer would push the dirt out of the hole in different directions like the spokes on the wheel, so it was always pushing in a straight line.

Unless you have a lot of time on your hands, I suspect you're better off hiring out the job. Two or three full days of the above mentioned machines working in tandem can dig a pretty sizeable hole.

 

[jenkinsph]

When I had my pond dug, they used a combination of two machines, an excavator and a dozer. The excavator would loosen the soil and the dozer would push it out. This seemed like a pretty efficient use of the strengths of each machine. Excavators can dig, but they don't move a lot of material. A dozer can push a fair amount of loose material, but a dozer tears it's drive line up when turning while pushing. Think of the pond being the hub of a bicycle wheel, the dozer would push the dirt out of the hole in different directions like the spokes on the wheel, so it was always pushing in a straight line.

Unless you have a lot of time on your hands, I suspect you're better off hiring out the job. Two or three full days of the above mentioned machines working in tandem can dig a pretty sizeable hole.

Some good points and practical advice^^^^.
Large equipment can move dirt at the lowest cost per yard.

 

[bjorn773]

It is pretty heavily wooded, there is not sunlight thru the canopy. The trees are primarily silver maples and shoot straight up competing for light. It sounds like the first thing I need to do is clear the trees and see what condition the ground is in afterward. As far as time, I am a teacher with summers off so I have the time to plug away at it. The pond is not a huge priority. Clearing the invasives is our focus right now. I was thinking plugging away at it with a tracked skid would work for the pond when I get to it, but it sounds like it's the wrong machine for the job.

 

[bcp]

Combining all the comments:


If you need to dig dirt, use a dirt digger.

If you need to push dirt, use a dirt pusher.

If you need to carry dirt, use a dirt carrier.



Bruce

 

[joefromga]

Also, never use your own machine because it will wear it out.

 

[bdog]

I am currently digging a pond at my place that is a little under a half an acre. It will receive no run off and we have drilled a well to fill it. It will be 12' deep in the middle.

We have done the digging with a 100 hp tracked skid steer, a 70hp tracked skid steer, and a backhoe. We originally were using a chisel plow behind a large farm tractor to break the ground about 8" deep and then scoop out the loose soil, then chisel plow and repeat. We have a full size dump truck and are hauling about 15 yards at a time a half mile or so to another place on our property. Now that it is getting deeper getting the tractor in there isn't as easy and we are just digging with the 100hp skid steer. With a tooth bucket it does surprisingly well. It is not hard at all to get full buckets which are nearly a yard. The backhoe doesn't work as good I don't think. It is easy to dig a hole with the hoe but I can't get the dump truck down in the pond so it means digging and putting the dirt in a pile and then loading it in the truck - moving it twice. The loader on the backhoe works ok and holds a little more than the skid steer but even with 4WD it has traction issues trying to dig into the virgin ground and the skid steer works better. Keep in mind this is a 13,000 lb tracked skid steer. A smaller one likely would not do as good.

Getting rid of the dirt is the hard part. At first we were just digging topsoil and selling it. I was getting $200 a 12 yard truck load and could sell it about as fast as I could dig it. I would just wait for the phone to ring and go dig enough to fill the truck and go deliver it. As we got deeper we got out of the topsoil and into a caliche mix. Not good enough caliche to sell for road material but definitely white looking and not good for people wanting topsoil for yards and such. This "fill dirt" as it is called has almost no value. We could only get $100 per 12 yard load which basically just covers the trucking and there was much less demand for it.

We then decided to just start piling the dirt up in the back corner of the property for a huge shooting backstop. In total counting what we sold and what we have stacked up I bet we have moved close to 200 dump truck loads and the pond may be halfway done.

I have not worked on it in a few weeks I get bored with it and then will go dig for a day or two. Dirt fluffs up when you dig it and you have no idea how much dirt comes out of a hole until you start digging.

A dozer and an excavator would be the right tools especially if you could just push the dirt out and build a dam, berm around the pond. We want the ground flat around ours so everything has to be hauled off. It is a huge undertaking and will probably take me over a year to complete.

 

[EddieWalker]

Very good information. Until you start hauling the dirt, there is no way to really comprehend how much effort it takes to move it.

 

[bindian]

I always thought a backhoe would be the ideal pond tool. That is..............until I bought one and realized it was not. I dug the pond basins of both of my ponds with the front loader bucket on my Mahindra 6520 4WD. The first smaller pond, I dug to 4 foot depth with the loader then to depth with the backhoe. But I would have to dig and dump it 90 degrees, then drive out and turn around and go it to remove the spoils with the loader. Lots of wasted time and dangerous turn arounds when the bucket was full.

My second pond, I dug down to 7 feet with the loader bucket. Both ponds, I just used the bucket as a dozer would and pushed the spoils over the dam, then carried it where I piled it. It took forever and to me moving dirt is so boring. But deep in the basin, the front tires kept sinking with a loaded bucket. So I rented a mini track loader, a Bobcat 770. I could then haul out the wet stuff at the bottom. I loved the Bobcat, as my foot print sunk deeper than the tracks with a loader bucket full of dirt. But you still had to travel to pile the spoils. I made piles close to the pond and am still moving them to this day to spread them out.

A year later, I rented a Bobcat E42 mini excavator and dug deeper around the island, after I drained the pond. I could dig and swing 180 degrees and dump spoils on the dam, which I had to remove with the Mahindra. I loved the excavator!

Now, I bought a CAT E70 excavator and Ford dumptruck to enlarge the pond, which is a work in progress. I love digging and dumping straight into the dumptruck! But I hate driving the dumptruck. It cuts down on fun digging time. I need a driver!
This has all taught me a mini track loader and excavator work great on small ponds, but a dozer is needed on big ponds. Moving dirt, you need a dumptruck, or prepare yourself for endless hours moving dirt with a tractor loader and all that fuel.
hugs, Brandi

 

[compact]

Dozer is best because it compacts the dam as it is built up in layers. Pretty hard to beat a dozer for moving dirt a few hundred feet. Plus they work very well on inclines and are very good at shaping.

 

[PatrickS2222]

Dozer is best because it compacts the dam as it is built up in layers. Pretty hard to beat a dozer for moving dirt a few hundred feet. Plus they work very well on inclines and are very good at shaping.

I would agree generally with that. One thing to consider though, is that a larger machine will certainly work much more efficiently, but requires more space to do it - it's difficult and somewhat cumbersome to dig a smaller dam with a large dozer, also the wall has to be wide enough to accomodate the weight of the machine if you tramp the wall crossways, or the track width, no pun intended (ie in this case literally the distance between the tracks) if you tramp it lengthways - I believe doing both is best.
Digging a pond with no bern, which requires removal of all the dirt - quite a different project which, as stated by Bindian, requires several machines. Again, the appropriate size of machine is important.
I am currently building a second dam here ..... it is the first time I have attempted this, it's been most of my spare time for 3 months so far, but it's looking reasonably Ok and is nearly finished. You'll see what machinery I have available, however I wish I had a dozer blade for the drott - would've used a lot of the time, also a skid-steer - would've been a bit quicker at some of the work. There aren't any pics less than about 3 weeks old - must remedy that! Take a look if you're interested:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owning-operating/367756-building-our-new-dam-2.html#post4532977

 

[EddieWalker]

Dozer is best because it compacts the dam as it is built up in layers. Pretty hard to beat a dozer for moving dirt a few hundred feet. Plus they work very well on inclines and are very good at shaping.

A dozer is good when moving material a short distance, and shaping, but due to the fact that the tracks spread out the weight of the machine, it leaves a very light footprint compared to its weight. A dozer is not a good choice for compacting a dame. My dozer weighs 40,000 pounds. It's a Case 1550 with 170 hp and similar in size and power to a Cat D6 or Deere 850. I can move 3 yards at a time when I've dug down a trench to hold the material in on the sides with an 8 way blade. A U blade will hold a lot more material, but it's not as versatile for shaping.

To compact my soil, I ran my loaded dump truck over my dam, and also used the front tires of my full sized loader backhoe that holds one yard of material. I can go over the same spot dozens of times with the dozer without compressing the dirt very much, but then when I go over it with the backhoe or dump truck, I sink in anywhere from a few inches to half a foot. It's very obvious how much more weight is concentrated on the tires compared to the tracks.

 

[PatrickS2222]

Yes, I found the loader with a full bucket will find any soft areas the tracks had "bridged" and didn't compress. I was adding only 12" or so and tramping it, then adding more, simply because my machine is only a bit under 6 tons (plus a bucket of dirt). I wanted it compacter well, so I wouls drive the loader over it a bit as well afterwards.

 

[bindian]

Eddie,
I learned using a full loader bucket and only front tires for tamping down the dam from you. Those front tires really sink down under the weight. Thanks!
hugs, Brandi