Kubota HP needed?

[JWR]

Pburchett -- you are going to get endless free advice on this one. Here's my view: (having read all 4 pages of replies to date)
1) Forget the 60 some inch width. If you are on steep ground anything similar to what I mow in WV you need all the tread width you can get. Until you get into the larger (above 50hp) orange ones, the universal complaint among steep ground bush hoggers is that you can't get Kubota wheels spread enough. A friend has an L3400 using a 5ft hog and they did not feel safe on it at all without adding rear spacers. Photo attached.
2) I used a 48hp JD 4wd with a 6ft MX6 hog for 10 years and it was a perfect match in my opinion. No way I'd go below a 40 or 45hp to run a 6ft hog if you mow anything more than grass. I cut some awfully heavy woodyplants head high and so dense you could not walk thru it with that rig. Sometimes small thorn trees, sometimes just briars and weeds. Rear tires spaced 78" at outer edge to just clear trailer I had. Good on the steep too.
3) Individuals have preferences but I know no one cutting steep ground with a 6ft hog using hydrostatic drive. I never want to. The stick shift gives you better control on steep spots, more power to the wheels and PTO from whatever size engine you have, and I say longer life and reliability. Guys talking "crash box" std trans are talking old machines. All the newer ones have syncromesh transmissions. In the size tractor you are considering you should get either 8 or 12 speeds which beats heck out of 3 hydro ranges (some of which will sit there and hum against a steep hill with heavy hog and good traction instead of moving on.) Yuk. But that is just my view.
4) So I vote for at least 45hp, at least 6ft rear tire width at outer edges (more is better), go to a large enough Kubota where you can widen the rear wheels enough or else use the spacers, and stick with a std transmission. For your loader work I loved the power reverser on the JD4700 & newer Kubotas have power shuttle transmissions too.
Final comment: you want the safest machine you can put under you for the work you do. That means good brakes, very wide wheel spacing, and low center of gravity.

 

[Fallon]

More power, yes. But there is absolutely no way a gear machine has more control than a HST. By its very nature a HST is infinitely variable. However many gears you have its not nearly as much as infinite. Also when you let off the go pedal on a HST, it is self braking. When I let off in medium on my L3200 on a 15 degree slope it tops out at a couple feet per minute. A couple inches per minute in low. No brakes unless I'm trying to stop precisely like loading or unloading my truck with pallet forks & even then I only need brakes on a slope.

There is NEVER a situation unless we are talking about mechanical breakdown where a gear has more control than a HST when in gear. Shifting between ranges maybe as the 2 or 3 speed tranny on a HST is just an old crash box you have to stop to shift. But you don't shift a normal gear transmission on a hill either when you are using it to control descent. Less power? Ya, its commonly accepted that there is a 15% power penalty for a HST.

As for the whole some of the 3 speeds will just cause the HST to go into relief & hum? Most of the gears on your gear tractor would just stall your engine in those same situations. Quite the straw man argument.

I'm a fan of HSTs, but I also realize gears have their place. I don't go around spreading misinformation about my preference though.

 

[gladehound]

... Less power? Ya, its commonly accepted that there is a 15% power penalty for a HST....

I agree with most of what you wrote. I just want to make a clarification on the part I quoted above. The 15% power penalty you're talking about is with the same engine. But going to a gear machine can give you a bigger engine at the same price. Depending on what machines you compare, you may be looking at 25% to 50% more power to the ground out of a gear machine for the same price (plus potentially larger frame, more stability, better loader etc.)

 

[JWR]

More power, yes. But there is absolutely no way a gear machine has more control than a HST. By its very nature a HST is infinitely variable. However many gears you have its not nearly as much as infinite. Also when you let off the go pedal on a HST, it is self braking. When I let off in medium on my L3200 on a 15 degree slope it tops out at a couple feet per minute. A couple inches per minute in low. No brakes unless I'm trying to stop precisely like loading or unloading my truck with pallet forks & even then I only need brakes on a slope.

There is NEVER a situation unless we are talking about mechanical breakdown where a gear has more control than a HST when in gear. Shifting between ranges maybe as the 2 or 3 speed tranny on a HST is just an old crash box you have to stop to shift. But you don't shift a normal gear transmission on a hill either when you are using it to control descent. Less power? Ya, its commonly accepted that there is a 15% power penalty for a HST.

As for the whole some of the 3 speeds will just cause the HST to go into relief & hum? Most of the gears on your gear tractor would just stall your engine in those same situations. Quite the straw man argument.

I'm a fan of HSTs, but I also realize gears have their place. I don't go around spreading misinformation about my preference though.

Misinformation ? "I resemble that remark...." as the cartoon cat used to say. Calling a std trans a "crash box" in this day and age is pure misinformation. I never said anything about shifting ranges on an HSD being a "crash box" but since you bring it up -- that's a good point. Since you don't like what I said up front was MY opinion, I will add that "infinite" equates to "slippage." About brakes? Clearly you do not operate where you are sometimes letting the machine slowly down off a very steep spot with the brakes. And, in my routine bush hog work on an old farm, a 15 degree slope (which is just under 30%) is rather panty-waisted and not even considered at all steep. You're an HST fan and I am too for mowing my lawn. Now operating with good traction on a very steep slope pulling a big hog behind you, what happens when you find yourself in too high an HST range ? It sits there and hums exactly as I said. If it is a std trans you simply shift down a gear. With the HST you are forced to stop. Differing opinion is generally healthy.

 

[motownbrowne]

Misinformation ? "I resemble that remark...." as the cartoon cat used to say. Calling a std trans a "crash box" in this day and age is pure misinformation. I never said anything about shifting ranges on an HSD being a "crash box" but since you bring it up -- that's a good point. Since you don't like what I said up front was MY opinion, I will add that "infinite" equates to "slippage." About brakes? Clearly you do not operate where you are sometimes letting the machine slowly down off a very steep spot with the brakes. And, in my routine bush hog work on an old farm, a 15 degree slope (which is just under 30%) is rather panty-waisted and not even considered at all steep. You're an HST fan and I am too for mowing my lawn. Now operating with good traction on a very steep slope pulling a big hog behind you, what happens when you find yourself in too high an HST range ? It sits there and hums exactly as I said. If it is a std trans you simply shift down a gear. With the HST you are forced to stop. Differing opinion is generally healthy.

Okay, since I'm the guy who said "crash box" the first time and since you're calling it "pure misinformation" I'll tell you my personal experience. When buying my MX 4700 I had a choice between a three range HST and... (Drumroll please) a partially synchronized transmission. That's right, folks, you can shift between 3rd and 4th gear without stopping. That's it. Not 1st to 2nd, not 2nd to 3rd. Another example is the smaller workmaster tractors from NH. The transmission is called a synchronized shuttle, but the tractor must be stopped to change gears or ranges. Are most compact or utility tractors available with a crash-box or only partially synchronized transmission? I don't know, but some of them are, so my statement isn't "pure-misinformation". You're absolutely welcome to disagree with me, by all means, but please be sure of what you're saying before you call my words misinformed.

Besides, my point was that all this talk about how gear transmissions are more reliable doesn't account for how most of the gear transmissions now are some form of power-shift or power shuttle. My point was that these newer types of manual transmissions have more moving parts, more things to fail, and aren't necessarily any easier or less costly to repair than a HST. My point was that someone recommending that a prospective buyer choose a power-shift or power-shuttle over a HST because of improved durability is the one potentially providing the misinformation.

 

[DK35vince]

Okay, since I'm the guy who said "crash box" the first time and since you're calling it "pure misinformation" I'll tell you my personal experience. When buying my MX 4700 I had a choice between a three range HST and... (Drumroll please) a partially synchronized transmission. That's right, folks, you can shift between 3rd and 4th gear without stopping. That's it. Not 1st to 2nd, not 2nd to 3rd. Another example is the smaller workmaster tractors from NH. The transmission is called a synchronized shuttle, but the tractor must be stopped to change gears or ranges. Are most compact or utility tractors available with a crash-box or only partially synchronized transmission? I don't know, but some of them are, so my statement isn't "pure-misinformation".

Synchronized shuttle means the shuttle for forward/reversing is synchronized. The gears themselves my not be.
My tractor has a synchronized shuttle and synchronized transmission (all Forward and reverse gears are synchronized).
The range selector is not. You need to stop to change ranges

 

[Fallon]

My 3 speed HST infront (or is it behind?) is a true crash box. I believe most HSTs are. You need to be at a dead stop to not grind & earn their nickname. Unless the gears wont mesh, in which case you need to let it roll a hair, or tap the go pedal. Definitely less than ideal, but you shift so rarely its not a big deal.

High range is for roading only, no way its a working gear & is as relevant to the conversation as mowing in high range on a gear machine would be. I use to mow in M with my 5' rotary cutter, but now use L with my 7' flail. L stops VERY agressively & M will hold it to slower than I could crawl with just my hands on as steep of a hill as I care to have my tractor on. I have very minimal need for brakes on my HST at all because of the HST. Sitting on your 30% grade in M without my foot on any pedal, the tires would be inching forward with a new lug hitting the ground about every second or so. Easing into something & precisely controlling your speed at a varying rate like that is something that the HST excels at.

I agree different opinions are healthy & gear transmissions are supperior in several ways & applications. I just think some people extoll virtues of gear transmissions or HST negatives that are opinions at best or misleading to wrong at worst. I generally think a HST will be safer & easier for a novice operator to run, regardless of other benefits or drawbacks.

 

[JWR]

Synchronized shuttle means the shuttle for forward/reversing is synchronized. The gears themselves my not be.
My tractor has a synchronized shuttle and synchronized transmission (all Forward and reverse gears are synchronized).
The range selector is not. You need to stop to change ranges

True. Of course this may vary among brands, sizes and models but to the extent that we can name some common characteristics, the hydrostatics "usually" require you to stop when shifting ranges. The multi-range stick shifts (in new ones at least) are synchromesh within any single range but are NOT synchronized between ranges. For example my MF 2660 is fully synchronized among the 4 speeds but not synchronized between low range and high range.

 

[pburchett]

Well I bought a MX5200HST. After driving the hst and gear. It was easy to decide on the hst. It has 4x4, FEL with heavy duty bucket and additional cutting edge plus loaded ag tires. I bought it on size and price. It was the most stable tractor and only $1000 more than the L4701 which was my next choice. 27 hours on it so far in a month of ownership

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

Congrats!

 

[JWR]

Well I bought a MX5200HST. After driving the hst and gear. It was easy to decide on the hst. It has 4x4, FEL with heavy duty bucket and additional cutting edge plus loaded ag tires. I bought it on size and price. It was the most stable tractor and only $1000 more than the L4701 which was my next choice. 27 hours on it so far in a month of ownership

Looks like an excellent choice. Certainly plenty of tractor for the 6ft hog. After all our yakking in the last 49 posts I can't recall what you said about mowing steep ground (or not.) How wide are your rear tires set and does that aspect seem to be comfortable ?

 

[pburchett]

Looks like an excellent choice. Certainly plenty of tractor for the 6ft hog. After all our yakking in the last 49 posts I can't recall what you said about mowing steep ground (or not.) How wide are your rear tires set and does that aspect seem to be comfortable ?

Well .... I can tell everyone that the HP rating will be the maximum one could ever expect to get from the tractor with it going downhill. Not very stable on hills but currently I have the FEL attached. I think it will lower the center of gravity once it is removed for bush hogging. I have the wheels set almost at max width. They can be set another 4 inches wider and I plan on doing that once I get closer to mowing the hills.

 

[JWR]

Well .... I can tell everyone that the HP rating will be the maximum one could ever expect to get from the tractor with it going downhill. Not very stable on hills but currently I have the FEL attached. I think it will lower the center of gravity once it is removed for bush hogging. I have the wheels set almost at max width. They can be set another 4 inches wider and I plan on doing that once I get closer to mowing the hills.

Hmmm! I'm surprised about the power. I'd have guessed that was a pretty robust machine, esp.in power to weight ratio. I'd widen the rear all I could for sure. My MF 2660 dynamometer tested at 90 hp at the pto even though it was rated 81hp. Yours is 4cyl and turbocharged. Surprises me. I'm one who prefers the loader to be on the tractor bush hogging steep ground. If you keep it low, the cg is lower than without it plus you get more weight on the drive wheels, esp. the front ones. A good heavy bucket below the normal c.g. of the tractor is a stabilizer.

 

[pburchett]

Well I am hoping that the power is there as I am still babying it a little till it gets broken in. This thing has to last another 70 years. We live in a geographical oddity as we are nowhere near anything so a dyno is out of the question. All I have to compare it to is the old Ford 640 and the seat of the pants dyno, not very scientific or accurate.

I have the heavy duty bucket and cutting edge, but the tractor seems tipsy compared to the old Ford. I will know more about the stability when I start to mow. Definitely I plan on widening the rear tires the last 4 inches (2inches each), then mowing the hills with the FEL on and off to see what is my best option. As long as I do not wind up like a turtle on its back all is good.

 

[JWR]

Yup. Don't turtle ! I never thought of using a dyno but the dealer when I bought it new was all excited with a new machine and did the test before I knew it. Your old Ford 640 like many of it's Ford or Ferguson cousins was built with an inherently low cg design. On top of that, the rear wheels were pretty far apart in standard configuration. So I think it is likely the MX5200 will feel less stable on steep ground. The spacers (I inserted a photo about in post # 41) are about all you can do beyond running the rears out as far as the standard MX5200 allows. I assume those spacers probably would fit your 5200. My limit has usually been "What fits my trailer width." But in later years I got a deck-over style trailer to get around that issue. It takes time to build confidence and feel for any new machine.

 

[TripleR]

We still have some old Ford tractors NAA, 600 and 601, my brother still uses them regularly. I only drive an L5740 and M8540. On the Ford and our MF375, you straddle the transmission and sit much lower than the Kubotas and others with flat floor boards. I've found the high seating position "causes more of a tippy feeling" than they actually are. I remember my initial feelings when I went with the tractors with higher seating positions, kinda of uneasy. I find in reality both are very stable with wheels extended and we don't even have our M8540 as wide as they will go. Much of our land has slopes.