The Confusion of Tractor Hydraulics Terms and the Quality of Different Choices.

[AxleHub]

Greetings,

I've read many threads on TBN that refer to adding an implement and then a need for a hydraulic method of controlling it.

However, the number of different terms used seems to be thrown around in a very confusing and often haphazard manner.

Let's start with some of those terms:

1. Rear Remote

2. 3rd function valve

3. Diverter valve

4. Power beyond

5. 2 remotes limitation

6. Key switch or toggle switch

7. Joystick valve.

8. Sensitivity vs on/off

9. Electric controlled


So lets take a simple example . . a grapple for a scut to be added.

It seems like a 3rd function valve is often referred to when it diverts flow from an existing hydroline to a source. This "diverting" temporarily interrupts the normal use of that line while something either closes/tightens or rotates. Often in this scenario it has a solenoid switch tied or attached to the normal joystick used for the fel or by or a foot switch.

My undetstanding is this switch is often like a simple light switch or toggle back/forth switch . . Its on . . Its off. It woukd appear this system does not offer the same sensitivity that a joystick control does (or like a dimmer light switch would). And adjusting is a process of clicking the switch repeatedly.. It would seem to be much more prone to early failure or damage because of the wiring, the switch setup, and the need for repeated clicking of it . . . and apparently a need for a different or modified joystick instead of the original.

It seems when people refer to rear remotes . . that implies a limit of 2 for some reason . . but more useful sensitivity and a separate joystick or mechanism that is not electrical oriented and not fel joystick related.

Now I've seen threads where posters talk about a 3rd function switch or 3rd function valve ???. Also threads where they got a 3rd function valve added but it isn't a diverter ????

Still other threads talk about a 3rd function valve that is not power beyond vs. A remote that is power beyond.

Obviously understanding hydraulics is one thing but it seems like there are 3 or 4 (or more) ways to control an implement hydraulicly. Yet posters talk in switching terms about them . . yet costs seem farely similar per item (about 800 or 900 dollars plus some labor) for any if the choices except a true electric driven control to rotate a snowblower chute.

And no one seems to question why only 2 rear remotes are possible ???

Lastly . . it appears that a valve that is involved with "power beyond" is the 1 type of valve that mimics tthe normal tractor fel joystick or 3pt control etc. . . . in other words fully completing hydraulic flow and return circuitry.


At times in many posts it appears experienced users even confuse the differences and less experienced users are even more confused . . and when they ask the dealer for something to control a new implement . . the dealer just chooses one type regardless of future needs or expansion potential.

So . . can we get some simple definitions of the various choices available for a scut (to keep it simple and not be talking about big control stack adfons etc.)? And then the advantages and disadvantages that each choice or consideration offers.

I understand some options require running lines from the rear to the front. I'm especially interested in how each performs compared to how a fel joystock or 3 pt. Lift lever operates because they can be used with sensitivity and more precise control in my opinion.

Thanks for your inputs . . I'm sure many would value some clarity

 

[CalG]

I can't comment on all your questions, but my read of your post suggest that you may be putting limitations on hydraulic systems that just are not limited. take the Rear Remote subject. A fellow could put a modular valve in a power beyond configuration that would fully control a back hoe or log grapple. In single lever spool valves, that could be a row of 8. That's more than two. ;-)

On the topic of adding a diverter valve circuit to an existing system, the control provided by the spool valve control lever remains in effect. It's only the fluid flow now is "diverted" to a different cylinder than was originally controlled. Diverter valves themselves can be either manual, or electrically operated. I'm sure you could find them air or hydraulic actuation as well.

Not sure if this helps, I't's just a post. The most important thing is to decide what you want to have happen with the hydraulics, and try to piece together the hardware that will accomplish the goal with little complication.

 

[s219]

Really no limit to the number of rear remotes other than available space. Many of the factory kits will be setup for 2,3,or 4 valves just because they integrate into the tractor's existing trim/bezels. But if you go custom aftermarket, the sky's the limit. I have seen some pretty crazy looking rear remote valve stacks people put together that look like something out of Mad Max.

 

[LD1]

Power beyond: is a port on a valve that allows OTHER valves to be hooked to it downstream.

3rd function is an additional valve added to control something like a grapple.

Diverter is a valve added that diverts fluid from one of the other functions. Usually a solenoid valve, with a push button control. Let's say you tie in the diverter to the curl circuit, and use that for grapple lid, when moving the joystick left or right the bucket curls. Push the button and move the stick left or right and now it operates the lid. Thus the name diverter. BUT, based o. That description, you can understand that you can only control two functions at a time. With a 3rd function valve off the PB and you can operate all 3 at the same time

 

[AxleHub]

Thanks for the responses to date. I'll clarify again that much of my original post is information provided to me by dealers and users. I've been told 2 rear remotes could be added to my tractor by more than 1 dealer . . and in each case that was the limit. I didn't understand why that would be the limit . . but I also have seen in mant tbn threads that when someone has rear remotes added at purchase . . Its never more than 2 that they describe in scut or cut sizes.

It would seem to me a diverter valve option should be much cheaper than a 3rd function valve as there is much less hydraulic lines run or cost of valve . . only the switch/joystick changeout and some short lines and coupler etc . . yet the costs seem about the same as adding a rear remote which offers greater independence of use

Is a "3rd function valve" a generic term that includes diverter and rear remote ? Again in many threads the writers seem to refer to "3rd function" in various ways and descriptions.

If "3rd function valve" is actually a "thing" and not a generic term . . then how us a 3rd function valve different from a rear remote ?

Here's a real life example: I'm helping to develop a valve kit that adds 2 remote function capability and is controllef by a full range use joystick just like a fel joystick operates. Obviously I'm not the hydraulics engineer But I do lend some value on how and where to position such a valve and how lines can be run for most convenient and safe use and easier installation.

Now in this example . . do you call this a 2 rear remote valve . . or is it a dual 3rd function valve or ????

Now in the example above power beyond is part of the design. but in anything but a diverter category . . . why would any other valve mechanism not be using power beyond design ?

 

[murphy1244]

" Its never more than 2 that they describe in scut or cut sizes."

Not true as Kioti and Kubota can do 3 factory remotes on some models.
I think you're starting to confuse yourself..

 

[LD1]

A diverter is not "a whole lot less hoses".

Hoses is about the only cost difference. Valves are silar in price IE, electric 3rd function vs electric diverter. A few extra 1/4 or 3/8 hoses isn't much $$.

 

[AxleHub]

A diverter is not "a whole lot less hoses".

Hoses is about the only cost difference. Valves are silar in price IE, electric 3rd function vs electric diverter. A few extra 1/4 or 3/8 hoses isn't much $$.

If prices between a 3rd function valve, a rear remote, and a diverter are very similar in cost . . my question is . . we know a diverter offers some limitations compared to a rear remote or 3rd function. So what is the reasoning in choosing a diverter for a scut or cut ? Is it more profitable for the dealer or "cleaner" as far as appearance or ???

I've read threads where some of the control switches used on the joystick fail early or are fragile or delicate when in exterior conditions on a regular basis. Add that in with the diverter original limitation and it seems like a weak choice. Of course I'm assuming that hydraulic valves are much more durable and "hardy" than are electrical switches and solenoid drive motors used in diverters.

I'm just searching for the reasong used by dealers or users . . or the "payback reward" for a diverter vs normal remite hydraulic valve options or factory provided options.

One other question from your response . . what is an electric 3rd function valve? Does this refer to a chute tilt control for a snowblower implement? What else would an electric 3rd function be used for ? Like a quick connect engage or disengage for a quick attach type unit ?

( I'm guessing an electric 3rd function does not utilize hydraulic activity or it would be a diverter instead . . correct ? )

 

[SPYDERLK]

Thanks for the responses to date. I'll clarify again that much of my original post is information provided to me by dealers and users. I've been told 2 rear remotes could be added to my tractor by more than 1 dealer . . and in each case that was the limit. I didn't understand why that would be the limit . . but I also have seen in mant tbn threads that when someone has rear remotes added at purchase . . Its never more than 2 that they describe in scut or cut sizes.

It would seem to me a diverter valve option should be much cheaper than a 3rd function valve as there is much less hydraulic lines run or cost of valve . . only the switch/joystick changeout and some short lines and coupler etc . . yet the costs seem about the same as adding a rear remote which offers greater independence of use

Is a "3rd function valve" a generic term that includes diverter and rear remote ? Again in many threads the writers seem to refer to "3rd function" in various ways and descriptions.

If "3rd function valve" is actually a "thing" and not a generic term . . then how us a 3rd function valve different from a rear remote ?

Here's a real life example: I'm helping to develop a valve kit that adds 2 remote function capability and is controllef by a full range use joystick just like a fel joystick operates. Obviously I'm not the hydraulics engineer But I do lend some value on how and where to position such a valve and how lines can be run for most convenient and safe use and easier installation.

Now in this example . . do you call this a 2 rear remote valve . . or is it a dual 3rd function valve or ????

Now in the example above power beyond is part of the design. but in anything but a diverter category . . . why would any other valve mechanism not be using power beyond design ?

This is space only. Dealers are giving a simplistic answer of 2 w/o reason, or sometimes knowing why.

,,,,Otherwise, I feel your pain. -- You have a pretty good inkling but you cant be confident in it until all the pieces fit properly. None of the answers have taken me over the "hump" either. It probably isnt because they dont know, but because they dont foresee the logical disconnects that a collection of terse and sometimes imprecise commentary will cause in someone trying the get it to "click". We need more of a circumspective approach ... and thats a singular composing chore.

 

[k0ua]

Let me try:

Lets get down to specifics. Lets say we want to control a grapple's lid. This is our goal.

At least 3 ways to do this. Run it off of an existing rear remote, and use the existing rear remote Selective control valve to control the lid. OR use a an electric over hydraulic control valve set up as a divertor, and using the FEL joystick curl/dump function to control the lid with an momentary pushbutton switch usually located on that joystick to momentarily "divert" the usual function of the joystick OR use a true 3rd function valve plumbed into the power beyond circuit after the FEL joystick. This is usually actuated by having two buttons on the joystick a close lid function button and an open lid button, or sometimes a rocker switch with spring loaded center off.

Plusses and Minuses:

Usually the cost of the 3 usual methods from lowest to highest is usually rear remote, diverter, true 3rd function.
Notice I said usually. If you have no existing rear remote with its associated selective control valve, then the cost to install it first would negate its usual lowest cost position. The diverter setup and 3rd function setup are often about the same cost, depending on how you source the parts or whether you source a factory kit or have the dealer source and build the system. Cost's depend on many factors. Just like everything else.

Ease of use: Many would rank the ease of use, in a perfect reverse order from cost. So true 3rd function, diverter, rear remote, with the true 3rd function which allows the operator to actually do 3 functions at once, lift/lower the loader, curl/dump the loader, and close/open the lid of the grapple all at the same time.
The Divertor setup does not allow for curl/dump and lid open/close at the exact same time because you have diverted the curl/dump joystick function by depressing the divertor button on the joystick. This activates the solenoid controlled diverter valve, which is the electric/hydraulic function I mentioned earlier.

The rear remote of course is using the existing valve that the factory intended for control of that set of remote Quick Disconnect outlets. Depending on where the control lever is located on the tractor, it may or may not be convenient to use. On my Kioti, it is very conveniently located. After I extended the factory OEM control lever about 4 inches higher, it is even more conveniently located, such that I can keep my hand on the FEL joystick and at the same time I can open or close the lid with my middle finger. But not all tractors are equipped this way.

There are other ways to "skin this cat" besides the 3 common ones I mentioned. But I hope this has helped to clear up a little of the confusion. Or not Hydraulics are a wonderful thing, and can be made to do useful things in accordance with the ingenuity and resourcefulness of the person that is applying the hydraulic principals.

 

[AxleHub]

" Its never more than 2 that they describe in scut or cut sizes."

Not true as Kioti and Kubota can do 3 factory remotes on some models.
I think you're starting to confuse yourself..

Murph, in reading many threads where valves and 3rd function and diverters are included in the thread . . I find often that users talking about what they needed to add to get the implement operational . . are making unclear statements about the 3rd function or remote or diverter. I think often that readers . . especiallt newer users . . don't know what to ask for at dealers or customizer shops. They don't realize the pluses and minuses of each or aren't able to interpret the writer's correctness.

As an example: one thread had a op that had added a grapple to his unit by the dealer. The op had had problrms with his "3rd function control" after 5 months and took it back to the dealer and was told the electrical components had a 90 day warranty and could be repaired/replaced but not under warranty.

Well a couple readers chimed in that they would not get a 3rd function valve then . . but rather they would get a rear remote instead. But the op seemed to be describing a diverter . . not a 3rd function vakve . . and no one seemed to question it but me ?

I'm not saying I'm sharp on this subject . . but ir seems like users are often not clear on the differenxes and then readers are lwarning incorrectly as well.

With the rapid growth in scuts and small cuts and the desire expansion for tillers and grapples etc. . . it just seems like the implement cobtrol mechanisms often are not clearly defined and clearly chosen.

Jmho

 

[LD1]

A 3rd function and diverter "can" both have switches and electrical components.

Basically, a diverter and electric third function are BOTH electrical solenoid valves controlled by a switch to direct fluid. The differences is the diverter uses an existing circuit for its supply....usually the curl function. And a 3rd function gets its own independent supply from the power beyond.

You "can" have a third function that is just a manual valve, more like how the remotes operate. But most opt for electric over hydraulic.

So that said....look at the pros and cons of each, assuming cost is similar

True electric/hydraulic third function......
Pros: Can operate multiple functions at once
Cons: No speed control

Diverter:
Pros: speed control
Cons: Cannot operate it at the same time as the function it is pulling supply from

An electric third function is either On or off. It would be like operating your loader joystick only in the fastest possible way for the RPM you are running. Unless you install other flow valves or restrictors. There is no feathering of the control like there is with the joystick. THAT is why I think alot choose to go with a diverter setup. Not often you need to run both functions at once.

Lets say you have a frame mounted....or even a loader mounted plow, and want to use the loaders joystick to raise and lower as well as angle. Diverter is the logical choice, since you wont be using curl anyway, and left-right motion of the joystick that curls/dumps can correspond with the plow angle. Same way for a blower chute rotator. But something like a loader mounted post hole digger, that you want lift and curl controls while drilling to maintain a straight hole, you are better off running the auger off a 3rd function or rear remote.

 

[davrow]

One of your questions was if "3rd function" was a thing or a generic term. It is totally generic.

For the most popular tractors on this forum, they come with a bucket.
Function 1: lift and lower
Function 2: curl and dump

Any, and ALL additional functions are called "3rd" function no matter how many you actually add.

 

[davrow]

Also, diverters and "true 3rd function" valves are both still valves. The only (meaningful) difference is how they are operated.

Since they accomplish the same ends people needed a way to differentiate between them, thus "diverter" and "true 3rd function". But they are both 3rd function valves.

Or spools? A whole new topic for confusion over precise definitions vs how many folks here use the term! :laughing:

 

[GoldenCityMuse]

I agree w/ axlehub. I came to this site less than 2 months ago, and had a lot of confusion about 3rd function vs rear remote vs diverter vs TNT etc.

it would be nice for those of us who have no experience in tractors if this was well expained. k0ua made a good start, along with LD1.

I now understand that FEL's always come w/ 2 functions; raise/lower the entire bucket, and tilt/dump the bucket at any height. Then a 3rd function i sneeded to add a hyd thumb or grapple.

We could have the same with a top - N - Tilt on the 3 point hitch. are there 2, 3 or 4 functions for it? And what is needed?

 

[LD1]

One of your questions was if "3rd function" was a thing or a generic term. It is totally generic.

For the most popular tractors on this forum, they come with a bucket.
Function 1: lift and lower
Function 2: curl and dump

Any, and ALL additional functions are called "3rd" function no matter how many you actually add.

I disagree. And I think how the terminology is used here on TBN, what you say dont make sense with how we use the terms.

Rear remotes are not considered 3rd function. But by your logic, if you have a loader, and add a set or two of remotes, that makes them third functions. But what if the same tractor with remotes added dont have the loader (functions 1 and 2)?? Or what if the remotes were there first....does adding a loader later change the remotes magically to "3rd functions"?

A diverter isnt called a 3rd function, because while it does offer a 3rd function, it cannot operate all 3 functions at once, whereas a 3rd function can operate all at once.

Top-N-Tilt's are normally ran off rear remotes. It is a hydraulic cylinder in place of your toplink for easier adjustment. And a cylinder in place of a sidelink for tilt adjustment. (Tilting a blade a bit to do ditching is an example.) To have both would require two sets of remotes.

"Typically", remotes power anything hydraulic off the back of the tractor. Thus "rear remotes". Things like TNT, a logsplitter, hydraulic angle blade, etc.

3rd function or diverter is the two choices for operating additional things off the front. Again, 3rd function allows you to use BOTH loader functions AND your third function at the same time, but at the cost of a few additional lines to be ran, and no speed control. And can be more complicated to hook up especially if you are already using the loader PB port to power a set of rear remotes or two.

The diverter is a little easier to install with fewer lines, and offers the feathering control of your loader joystick, but at the cost of not being able to operate the curl at the same time.

 

[CalG]

Just in perspective, "Remotes" are in contrast to internal or integral, such as a typical three point hitch cylinder would be.
Even though the 3PH lift assembly very well may be a bolt on.

On the Fordson, the 3 point lift is entirely self contained with it's own pump, cylinder, and control valve. Driven from a top of case external PTO, it even provides a tap for single acting external hydraulics such as a jack or dump trailer. (The lift arms need to be chained down when using the tap if you don't want to wait for the lift cylinder to cycle stop to stop ;-)

 

[davrow]

I disagree.

Rear remotes are not considered 3rd function.

Everyone is welcome to disagree with me, LD1.

I really do think most people call a grapple a "3rd function" whether they have a loader or not. Now, I run my grapple off a rear remote.

What would you like me to call that valve? Won't it confuse newbies more to have a rear remote operating front end equipment than to simply refer to it as a 3rd function when used for the grapple and a rear remote when used with the TnT?

I admit I don't think as the majority of folks do, but this makes sense to me. Would you like me to edit my post so as to not confuse our neophytes further? I'm willing.

( by the way, JJ doesn't agree with my phraseology either. )

 

[LD1]

If you are running a grapple, or anything else off the rear remotes, I prefer them be called as they are......rear remotes. As I think THAT is less confusing than calling it a 3rd function.

Imagine a newbie sees you have a grapple lowered via 3rd function valve and wants to do the same. Then you have to get to explain that you are running your grapple off the rear remotes, and just calling it a 3rd function.

To run anything on the front off the rear remotes isn't confusing at all. It is a remote valve by definition, located at the rear of the tractor.

You can have front remotes as well (to further confuse the masses).

What makes a 3rd function and diverter different is they are controlled with a button usually, located on the joystick of the loader. Thus 3rd function meaning you have controlls to 3 functions right there at the joystick. All 3 can operate at the same time with a 3rd function valve, or you can have a diverter, which permits the operation of two at a time. (But not the same two tied to the diverter.)

I didn't make up the terminology. But understand it and am trying to explain it. Back to the point of you calling your grapple control CIA rear remotes as a 3rd function....vhen searching for kits and parts...look at what the sellers/mfg call things. Rear remotes, 3rd function kits, and diverter kits are 3 different things

 

[stuckmotor]

And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language;
and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

If we don't try to build a tower to Heaven. We may get this all worked out.