I wish I could weld

[Eric Salop]

I am 52 and want to learn to weld. I've looked into the vo-techs in the area, and can't find any that offer welding as continuing ed, only full-blown courses for those wanting to make welding a career. I've considered just buying a mig welder and going for it, but haven't done yet. I've watched lots of how-to videos on youtube, and if I can't find someone/someplace to teach me, they may be my primary source for getting started.

Not being able to find a suitable course was one reason I didn't start this earlier in life. I have friends who are good welders and they have always helped me out with anything that was broken, but I don't like putting on them too much, so time now for me to at least give it a try.

Welding tips and tricks.com is the best. Jody really knows his stuff.

Welding Tips and Tricks - TIG, MIG, Stick and a pantload of other info

Thanks, that site looks very good. What a nice easy going guy as a tutor.

Agree, but get a good textbook too. The problem with videos is that they provide snippets of good information but generally fail to go over theory and safety in an organized manner. I bought several welding books but find that just one is head and shoulders above the others as an organized text with clear photographs, specific exercises at each level and is clearly written. That text is Welding Principles and Applications by Larry Jeffus. It is in the seventh or eighth edition now but I am very happy with the sixth edition I got used from Amazon.

After seeing an earlier recommendation for that same book last year, I said to my wife it would make a good Christmas present. I got to unwrap a couple of book shaped presents on Christmas day, but nothing about welding. I forgot all about it, then a couple of months later a well used copy came in the post ! My wife is a treasure and the book is not bad either.

 

[BigBoyToys]

One thing you need to be careful with is how you clean your metal. Brake Cleaner spray is a common cleaner I use a lot around the shop...However, NEVER use it to clean metal you're going to weld!!!!! When heated it can create phosgene gas which can be fatal. I either use a grinder, wire wheel or sandblaster on the metal.

Poisonous phosgene gas produced from heating chlorinated solvents

 

[STx]

As dirty as the metal you were practicing on is, those welds look great, especially for a stick welding newbie. I think EVERYONE should be forced to learn to stick weld before they're allowed anywhere near a MIG. A stick welder teaches good technique, arc control and penetration. You won't be able to keep your arc lit if you're not running it hot enough so it forces you to make strong welds.

I've seen guys use a MIG to produce absolutely BEAUTIFUL welds that I could pull apart with my hands. It's entirely possible to lay a perfect bead right on top of your material with 0 penetration using a MIG. I say stick with that stick welder until you intuitively know what a good weld looks, sounds and feels like as it's going down and then you can think about a MIG welder.

One thing you'll find really helpful in learning is to weld up some material and then beat it up with a sledgehammer, put it in a vise and bend it, cut it apart, etc. See where it fails and improve from there.

 

[sdef]

One thing you need to be careful with is how you clean your metal. Brake Cleaner spray is a common cleaner I use a lot around the shop...However, NEVER use it to clean metal you're going to weld!!!!! When heated it can create phosgene gas which can be fatal. I either use a grinder, wire wheel or sandblaster on the metal.

Holy Moly. I had no idea. I use brake cleaner when I suspect a surface is/has been greasy, etc. Actually used it two weeks ago. But fortunately most of my welding is out in the open or in an open barn, with degreasing performed well prior to welding. May have to rethink my welding, degreasing process.

OP: I have a Miller 210 MWP MIG and am a neophyte welder. Welded a bunch of heavy duty d-ring tie downs on two trailers and a knowledgeable person later mentioned most welds looked professional. The equipment can make a difference. Your welds look great to me. Now just apply them to something non structural for practice. Welding is a great skill to have

 

[k0ua]

Holy Moly. I had no idea. I use brake cleaner when I suspect a surface is/has been greasy, etc. Actually used it two weeks ago. But fortunately most of my welding is out in the open or in an open barn, with degreasing performed well prior to welding. May have to rethink my welding, degreasing process.

OP: I have a Miller 210 MWP MIG and am a neophyte welder. Welded a bunch of heavy duty d-ring tie downs on two trailers and a knowledgeable person later mentioned most welds looked professional. The equipment can make a difference. Your welds look great to me. Now just apply them to something non structural for practice. Welding is a great skill to have

If you go on welding web and read up on the number of guys that have died and been severely injured from using brake cleaner, you would NEVER EVER use it again. Throw it away.

DANGER using BrakeCleaner to clean your Parts

 

[Shield Arc]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply there is no skill in Mig welding, I appreciate there is far more to making a good strong weld and dealing with all the other factors. Maybe one day I will have time to do some Mig, or even Tig, but there seems so much I can potentially do with stick, that I will, err stick with it, for now

Eric when you get further along with your welding you can do some bend testing. It doesn't take much to build a bender. A 1-inch thick V-butt plate welded in the 2-G, 3-G, and 4-G positions. Then cut the coupons 3/8-inch thick and side bend them. This will tell you if you are ready to weld up something that some one's life will depend on. Without testing, you are just guessing!
This test plate was run with self-shielded flux core wire.

 

[dstig1]

The brake cleaner issue is not as clear as some believe. The issue is Chlorinated solvents, not all brake cleaners, per se. Many brake cleaners are chlorinated, and many are not. Read the label to find out. If you see anything with "chlor-" in the chemical list, then it has chlorine, and you should follow the advice to avoid it when welding. If it is totally non-chlorinated, then it is fine. You would run into a similar issue of you used some straight solvents like methylene chloride or tri-chlor also. Those just aren't all that common anymore due to the fact that they are kind of nasty (and it took time to really learn that..). Phosgene is a chlorine compound - it can't be created without chlorine present. No chlorine, no problem.

 

[Sodo]

If you don't weld while the brake-cleaner is wet on the steel, is there any danger? I don't think anyone cleans and welds that quickly (while steel is wet). Does anyone have links telling more about this, including the deaths?

I've seen guys use a MIG to produce absolutely BEAUTIFUL welds that I could pull apart with my hands. It's entirely possible to lay a perfect bead right on top of your material with 0 penetration using a MIG.

I've never seen this but read about it often on forums.
Sounds like it's pretty easy to do, but I can't imagine how. Can someone do it and post a pic?

 

[Eric Salop]

Eric when you get further along with your welding you can do some bend testing. It doesn't take much to build a bender. A 1-inch thick V-butt plate welded in the 2-G, 3-G, and 4-G positions. Then cut the coupons 3/8-inch thick and side bend them. This will tell you if you are ready to weld up something that some one's life will depend on. Without testing, you are just guessing!
This test plate was run with self-shielded flux core wire.

I intended to have a go at crudely testing some joints with a big hammer. You reminded me that I am storing a dismantled press for a friend. When there is some spare time I may put that together and do a proper test as you suggest, before he takes it away.


Could I ask you a question about tacking ? When I do this to hold two pieces of metal in position, should I be stopping and cleaning the tacks up before I weld the joint ?

 

[Shield Arc]

Could I ask you a question about tacking ? When I do this to hold two pieces of metal in position, should I be stopping and cleaning the tacks up before I weld the joint ?

You should knock the slag off, so when you weld over the tack there won't be any issues. Some times I'll even grind the tacks down some before welding over them.

 

[Shield Arc]

I've never seen this but read about it often on forums.
Sounds like it's pretty easy to do, but I can't imagine how. Can someone do it and post a pic?

It happened to me when member here roadhunter had his 120-volt Mig welder sent to me. So I could do some testing with it. Some of the backing plate fell off when the test plate was in the saw being cut.
Like I said before, when it comes to Mig / wire feed welding there is no substitute for power! The last picture shows what a Mig welder with power can do.

 

[k0ua]

If you don't weld while the brake-cleaner is wet on the steel, is there any danger? I don't think anyone cleans and welds that quickly (while steel is wet). Does anyone have links telling more about this, including the deaths?



I've never seen this but read about it often on forums.
Sounds like it's pretty easy to do, but I can't imagine how. Can someone do it and post a pic?

I read on account of a phosgene gas injury, where the guy thought the chlorinated brake cleaner had all evaporated but some remained in a pit in the metal. That was all it took. Just one little puff of smoke and he sucked it in and was damaged forever. if I had a chlorinated brake cleaner can, I would dispose of it.

 

[IslandTractor]

I read on account of a phosgene gas injury, where the guy thought the chlorinated brake cleaner had all evaporated but some remained in a pit in the metal. That was all it took. Just one little puff of smoke and he sucked it in and was damaged forever. if I had a chlorinated brake cleaner can, I would dispose of it.

Not quite accurate. No doubt that phosgene gas exposure can cause serious and often fatal respiratory illness after exposure but it is not true that anyone exposed would be "damaged forever". In fact, if you survive the first 48hrs after symptoms appear (which can sometimes take 24 hrs to appear after exposure) then a full recovery can be expected. A few survivors may develop reactive airway disease (asthma) after recovery but most will be completely normal after healing. The gas doesn't destroy lung tissue, it causes what amounts to a severe inflammatory reaction throughout the lungs, somewhat similar to pneumonia, and that causes fluid to accumulate in the lung which prevents oxygen from getting into your bloodstream. That process resolves relatively quickly but can be fatal before it resolves. In some ways it is similar to drowning. If you can survive the initial insult, you will be OK.

Someone earlier related a story about a guy who was found dead by his wife at his welding bench. It would be unlikely in the extreme for phosgene gas exposure to cause someone to just keel over while welding. It generally takes several hours after exposure for the toxic effects to result in pulmonary edema and the patient would be progressively symptomatic before dying. It's unlikely anyone having progressive difficulty breathing over a number of hours would just keep welding. However, it is true that early onset of symptoms after exposure has a bad prognosis.

I'm not trying to diminish the concern over phosgene gas generation when welding, just pointing out that it is an acute respiratory injury that can definitely kill but doesn't generally result in any long term debilitation for those who survive. Nobody becomes a pulmonary cripple if they survive.

 

[k0ua]

This was published in American Iron Magazine in the August 2009 issue.

Please read and pass it on.

Brake Cleaner = Phosgene Gas

By Steve 'brewdude' Garn

Yep, I thought this time I was a goner! How simple it was to get in trouble. Please take the time to read this and pass it on. After time we see and read many warning labels that we no longer heed. We buy chemicals and sprays at a local parts house and think to ourselves how can this be so bad health wise if we use it, I am buying it over the counter? So, this is how my story starts.

So I had a rush job welding 4 diesel semi tanks to patch that were pitted from road salt corrosion. Normally I spray a little carb cleaner, wipe it off, light the acetylene torch and preheat to get rid of any solvents. The gas station close to the shop was out of carb cleaner so I picked up a can of brake cleaner and went thru my regular routine. I even had the shop door open and the exhaust fan on. I started TIG welding (3pm Thursday) and had no problem in the beginning. Then, I started welding across a really pitted area and came across a couple of drops of cleaner still left in a deep pit. When I came close a small puff of white smoke puffed and immediately almost passed out. I then made it outside and sat for a while in the fresh air. After about 10 minutes I went to the office at the house and sat at the computer to check the warnings on the brake cleaner can when my whole left side started shaking for about 10-15 minutes. The can said ‘Vapors may decompose to harmful or fatal corrosive gases such as hydrogen chloride and possibly phosgene.



After reading about Hydrogen Chloride and then started researching phosgene. The chemical in the brake cleaner is Tetrachloroethylene. When this chemical is exposed with excessive heat and argon (used in MIG and TIG welding) it also produces phosgene.

Some Phosgene facts. Google Phosgene and read more!

It can be fatal with a dose as little as 4 parts per million.

Symptoms can be delayed from 6-48 hours after exposure.

There is NO antidote for Phosgene.

Long term effects can be chronic bronchitis and emphysema.





My breathing still was hard. So I called my wife in town (20 mins. away) and she said to call the ambulance which I didn't do. I waited at home for another hour and felt a little better so I decided to drive into town and meet my wife for supper and also living way out in the country brought me closer to the hospital in case I felt worse. The chlorine taste and smell in my nose and mouth was still very strong but went out later for pizza and then went to watch a basketball game. I felt a little better until I went outside after the game into the fresh air and then the smell and taste of chlorine almost overwhelmed me. I still went home hoping time would make me feel better.
About midnight (Thursday) I started coughing, my chest started hurting but thought that this would pass after a nights sleep. The next day (Friday)symptoms got worse and kidneys started hurting so I drank a bunch of liquids and cranberry juice. For 4 days pissed a lot of clear fluid with no smell. On Saturday I was really in a lot of pain. On Sunday I felt a little better and went to a friend’s house to watch the superbowl game. When I came home I felt very weak and tired. Monday I still was about the same. Tuesday I felt a little better and went into the shop for a couple of hours. Piss was very dark and a lot of smell this day. Still couldn't crap. Wednesday felt pretty good and I worked for about 5 hours. Thursday was even better day so I decided I would drive to Cincy with Chad to the VTwin expo on Friday. I felt okay but was very tired and weak. That Saturday I went out with friends but I didn’t feel quite right. I felt crappy on Sunday and left the expo about 2pm. The trip home was 375 miles and arrived home about 10pm that night feeling very tired. My wife made the comment that I looked awful (some home greeting). At midnight I lost all balance, was dazed, confused and could hardly talk so I then went to the Emergency room. My symptoms were Oxygen level low, sugar out of control, vertigo and I was hurting badly in my entire chest. They admitted me and put me in the ICU. They said my kidneys had probably shut down for those 4 days, my lungs were damaged so I had to be on oxygen and that I would have to be on insulin to keep my sugar in check. The doctor and neurologist called CDC to try to figure out what to do since there is no antidote for phosgene. Basically to try to rest and hope it gets better. After CT, MRI, EKGs, EEG and several other blood tests it looked like at this time there was no permanent damage. The EEG was taken because of the shaking earlier of my left side was a seizure caused by the chemicals. The EEG determined that there was no permanent damage. But the MRI showed fluid in sinuses and a build up of fluids near the brain. The gas scarred up my sinuses and then became infected causing these fluids. The 3 doctors I saw said I was really lucky to make it.
Now it has been 4 weeks. Another Doctor who specializes in toxology is now seeing me. He thinks I may have emphysema and chronic bronchitis. So at this time I am on nasal medicine and an inhaler. My sinuses are severely scarred and nose smell nerves are damaged. I still have that awful chlorine taste and smell. I am also going to ear, nose throat Dr on Thursday. I will also know later on any pancreas damage from the blood tests that I had taken. The insulin that I was taking had little effect on sugar and I can't keep it in control. So we are trying a different approach with Lantos (long lasting insulin) and other medicines. Sleeping is off and on and I will have a sleep test next Tuesday. I am feeling somewhat better but still very tired. This will go on for a while but I have full faith that all will be fine after time.



On some forums some suggest using a cleaner without this chemical. Other chemicals I found in other sprays in my shop include, xylene, toluene, methylene chloride, ketones, pentane, cyclohexanes, heptane, methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), methanol, tetrahydrofuran and petroleum napththa. There are actually more but you get my point, right? All the chemicals listed above have heath issues! So check your sprays and know the health hazards and their correct use.

Chris Maida has called and checked up on me several times. He said it is a shame I went thru this ordeal. But, I disagree. If it saves someone an illness or a death it is worth going thru this if this is what it takes.

Please read labels and warnings. Look up the chemicals you use. Also keep these sites and phone numbers nearby.

American Association of Poison Control Centers Phone # 1-800-222-1222

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Your local hospital phone #




Thanks to American Iron Magazine to publishing this!

 

[flusher]

That is a great suggestion. I started wearing my bifocals and just as you say, my helmet and eyes can't agree where to look, I kept drifting over the edge of clear vision. In the end I had to take them off. It was better to see a slightly blur picture than 3 side by side images of the same weld pool.

.

I found that wearing yellow-tinted polarized aviator-type wrap-around sunglasses (UV-400 rating) under my auto-darkening helmet helped to reduce the arc glare so I can see the puddle better.

The glasses also keep almost all of the reflected UV radiation that gets into the rear of the helmet from reaching my eyes. Very important since I had cataract surgery in 2011 and now have implanted plastic lenses in my eyes. You have to wear sunglasses outdoors to protect those implants from UV deterioration from the sunlight. Even more important when generating a lot of UV while welding.

Good luck

 

[Relic]

Eric they don't look bad at all! Do yourself a big favor, clean the metal real well before welding on it.
Far as Mig being easy. Back when there was a lot of manufacturing in the USA, there was a term for guys who could only run Mig. Mig monkeys. With only a couple hours of training they could make great looking welds, but that doesn't mean the welds are strong! :thumbdown:

I agree with Shield Arc.Your already making nice looking passes,just try to get the metal as clean as possible and practice.:thumbsup:

 

[IslandTractor]

While I appreciate the relevance of a personal story from a welder in American Iron Worker, if you want to learn more about phosgene gas related illness it's better to go to the medical or toxicology literature: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/832454-overview#showall

 

[BigBoyToys]

Another thing to be careful of is "Welding Fumes" in general. This applies more so to welding coated metals like galvanized steel. I always use a small fan on the lowest setting behind me and ventilation when welding indoors.

Here's a couple links regarding Welding Fumes and Gases...
Welding Safety FAQs - Fumes and Gases
Metal fume fever - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gary Fowler]

Generally for welding with stick electrodes, wiping of grease with a dry rag, then using a grinding wheel to remove any surface rust/pits etc is all you need, no chemical cleaning required.
You cant really beat a good steam cleaning for removing grease if you have one. Even the small home style steam cleaners would be much better than using a chemical. High pressure water washing is another good use to clean surfaces prior to welding. Unfortunately, rust removal just about always requires a grinding / sanding disc. Your welds will be much better on a clean surface, both in visual and in strength so clean first the weld.
I have taught welding at community colleges and the hardest part was getting students to pay attention to the classroom studies. They all wanted to just get to the lab to practice.
Just like any other skill, practice will improve your skills as much or more than reading about it. While reading about techniques is a requirement, no amount of reading will make you a good welder without more practice than reading.

 

[Sodo]

I've never had trouble stick-welding metal "this clean" (no scale, and lots of bright metal). I can imagine a little trouble MIG welding it, the wire pushing back a little if you step ahead too far, or with low power. With a MIG, you'd want to stay within the bounds of your puddle for this metal. I would not even give it a 2nd thought with a stick (1/8 or bigger). Maybe with 3/32 stick....but I would never use that size cuz I have MIG. Plus I'd have hard time making a weld that nice with 3/32".

It happened to me when member here roadhunter had his 120-volt Mig welder sent to me. So I could do some testing with it. Some of the backing plate fell off when the test plate was in the saw being cut.
Like I said before, when it comes to Mig / wire feed welding there is no substitute for power! The last picture shows what a Mig welder with power can do.

Shows up real good in this test-plate pic. Down in the bottom of a 3/8" groove there can't much heat left with a 120v machine. Didn't this problem appear when welding 3/8" thick material with a 120v machine as an exhibition, a full 50% thicker than the machine's recommended capacity? That's an example but not good example because a newbie shouldn't be welding 50% thicker than the machine's rating. That's for experienced welders.

If a newbie welder were to keep within the recommended capacity of the machine (3/16 - 1/4").......is "a pretty MIG weld that falls apart" a genuine concern that needs to be taught to the newbies (and oldies)? If it's genuine, someone should be able to replicate it, or show the forum an example.

Which amounts to be showing what NOT to do. Thats what this forum needs more than just writing about pretty welds failing. Can anybody show a pretty weld that failed (in real life)? STx do you have a pic of that pretty weld you pulled apart with your hands?