Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[hutchman]

Don't worry this thread is still twirling in the same circles from when I was in it earlier. Lol

I know! I'm getting dizzy. Reminds me of the old saying ... opinions are like buttholes. Everybody has one and they all stink!

It might be time for more absurd alien guy posts again. I thought that would kill off the thread last time but it got resurrected somehow.

 

[hutchman]

As long as our gas contains ethanol, I don't want any thing gasoline that is a seldom run or seasonal run engine. I have enough trouble keeping my lawnmower's engines from clogging up with crap from the gasoline today. I sure don't wont to have to run my tank dry on my tractor every time I park it for an extended time, and with my tractors, extended time might be anytime I stop it after I finish a task. MY LS hasn't been fired up in 3 months basically since I tilled the garden this spring. Fuel storage would be terrible also for a tractor with 20 gallon tank. You couldn't stock pile 100 gallons for a year and expect it to be fresh when you need it like you can with diesel.

Gasoline is ok for my chainsaw, weedeater and lawnmower but leave my tractor alone as it is with its diesel engine.

+1 my feelings exactly. I don't get too upset having to throw away a weed eater (I'm only on my second one in 20+ years) when it gets hosed up but there is a huge money difference between that and my tractor.

For a daily driver, E10 is OK. I don't like it but not much I can do about it. It doesnt give me much problem other than knowing I'm giving up a few MPG.

But for stuff that gets infrequent use and requires long term storage ... I'll pick diesel every time.

 

[MossRoad]

Note you said late 70's. Lets recall a low compression gas with a carb and points ignition. Lets think 2015 with a high compression DI gas vs a Tier Iv diesel. With diesel costs more per gallon than gasoline. Why can't some people flip the pages ahead on the calendar 40 years ?

Flip it ahead all you want. A diesel engine is built heavier and will stand up to heavy use longer than current gas engines. Diesel prices have dropped like a rock and its within 10 cents per gallon of gas now and way cheaper if you buy off-road diesel for your tractor. If gasoline worked better for fleet trucks, don't you think the trucking industry would have switched to gas by now? They haven't because it doesn't make economic sense. I'm pro gasoline. I love my GDI Impala. And I love my gas powered Power Trac tractor. I hate diesel. But even I recognize that gasoline is the wrong tool for the job in conventional tractor applications.

 

[MossRoad]

Depends on the forklift and the driver...
We have several at work that are used for dumping fruit into a bulk truck, they are setup with a forward bin dumper (like this one: https://www.cascorp.com/americas/en/forwardbindumper ).
When the guys run that, its running wide open to lift 1500-2000# up to the top of the trailer and dump the bins, then it idles while it comes down, then they floor it to drive over to the row of empty bins, drop the two empties, back off the throttle to change directions, then grab another two full bins and push the pedal to the floor to begin again.
Is it at 100% load all the time? No, but it probably averages a 60-70% load on the engine for 1-5 hours at a stretch.
Its a lot more load than our BX2660 gets when mowing (because it cant move fast enough to load the engine down in grass that is less than 6" tall) or plowing snow.

Aaron Z

I don't know... I drove forklifts for about 6 years loading airplanes and several years unloading semi's of skids and moving heavy machinery. I still get on them a couple times each year to keep in practice. High RPM doesn't equal high load. Yeah, we floored it to get from point A to point B faster, but that's not a heavy load and the engines had governors and that limited the top speed and RPMs. And the only reason we hit the accelerator when lifting was to get it lifted faster, not because it was a heavy load. I think that's why they are gas and LP powered... because they don't need to provide much torque ever. That, and as others have mentioned, you can run them inside VS a diesel without choking everyone to death.

 

[paulfun9]

This is the key factor. Nobody makes a gasoline engine "for the use" we're talking about. That's what I'm saying over and over.




The engine in question was operated within it's normal RPM range. It wasn't revved over the limit, and there was no parts failure to allow it to go beyond redline. It was simply worked near it's maximum capability for an extended period of time. That's the exact difference I'm talking about. A light-duty cycle engine, like what gets put in cars is capable of being worked hard enough to cause major damage without exceeding it's normal limits. A heavy-duty cycle engine won't hurt itself without something unusual happening.

I find this hard to believe as I have owned vets and know for fact if you hold the pedal to the floor in first gear it will over rev! Heck I have even over reved them in second and third not to mention fourth and fifth along with a 180 shot of Nitrous

So lets let the Vette aside since I will no longer believe anything you say about that incident!

I thought a lot about your statement about fork lifts being light duty and I have to agree with aczlan that they are not light duty for most applications I have seen. They haul in most cases more weight to begin with, more weight on the forks and are run with a load more often than not. I also haven't seen but the worst operator driving them gingerly with anything other than foot to the floor and most don't even use the brake they just skid the tires as they slam the lever from forward to reverse and lets not forget that most I have seen also run bigger pumps with more flow.

 

[GManBart]

So.. the diesel has to be a lot larger and more expensive to get the same power...err.. you're switching sides here?

No. The engines make the same peak power, but the forklift engine isn't designed to run at that rated power continuously for thousands and thousands of hours, where the tractor engine is. The forklift engine is simply built for a lighter duty-cycle than the tractor engine...they rarely stays at rated power for more than a few seconds at a time, where tractor engines run at rated power for many hours at a time.

 

[GManBart]

This talk of gas industrial and stock light engines blowing up when reved to redline is rubbish. btw lets talk about all the video's of diesel pickup truck engine failures since you brought i up. Quit trotting that drivel out. The reason why you see gas engines blow up is because you are watching a nascar engine built for max power and to last only 550 miles . What would you expect to see happen ?
The spark ignition engines in industrial and light highway applications spend less time in the shop per hour and per mile than the diesels and their emission system problems.

Talk about making stuff up and taking things out of context! I'm not talking about racing car engines, so don't put words into my mouth.

Unfortunately for your ridiculous defense of an engine that doesn't exist, we're not talking about spark ignition engines in light highway applications, or industrial engines that are currently available, so you have ZERO data to work off. Go find a modern DI gasser engine that would be suitable in a CUT/SCUT, and get some data off it, then you'll have actual facts.

Other than that, you're simply guessing and making apples-to-oranges comparisons.

 

[GManBart]

"Any gas engine, in any application in any tractor is inferior"............. Reminds me of something I seen somewhere. Quote "Nothing bothers a troll more than ignoring them....well that and actual facts." Unquote

Funny...you have zero facts, and you want to bring that up?

Nobody makes the mythical gas engine you claim would be superior to a diesel in a modern tractor. Go find that engine, then you can't talk about facts.

 

[GManBart]

I find this hard to believe as I have owned vets and know for fact if you hold the pedal to the floor in first gear it will over rev! Heck I have even over reved them in second and third not to mention fourth and fifth along with a 180 shot of Nitrous

So lets let the Vette aside since I will no longer believe anything you say about that incident!

I thought a lot about your statement about fork lifts being light duty and I have to agree with aczlan that they are not light duty for most applications I have seen. They haul in most cases more weight to begin with, more weight on the forks and are run with a load more often than not. I also haven't seen but the worst operator driving them gingerly with anything other than foot to the floor and most don't even use the brake they just skid the tires as they slam the lever from forward to reverse and lets not forget that most I have seen also run bigger pumps with more flow.

Right, I'm going to make up a lie about a Corvette to impress some folks on the internet. I wasn't in the car, so I don't know how high the engine was turning, but it had a catastrophic failure and it was in first gear the whole time. The fact remains that a tractor engine won't blow up when subject to that sort of situation....throttle wide open. They are designed so they can't hurt themselves. Light-duty engines aren't designed that way....that's the whole point. If you think I'm lying about it happening, just put me on ignore.

I've been around forklifts a lot and if they aren't light-duty, they're certainly not a heavy-duty cycle. Slamming from forward to reverse, and having weight on the forks etc, has very little bearing on what happens to the engine. They don't spend much time making their rated maximum power, at least in most environments, and that's the critical difference. Time at rated power is the key factor.

 

[buickanddeere]

No it wouldn't, I run them every day.
They throttle up and down just as fast as the non turbo diesels IMO.

You are saying that there is no turbo lag? We all know that can't be true

 

[buickanddeere]

Flip it ahead all you want. A diesel engine is built heavier and will stand up to heavy use longer than current gas engines. Diesel prices have dropped like a rock and its within 10 cents per gallon of gas now and way cheaper if you buy off-road diesel for your tractor. If gasoline worked better for fleet trucks, don't you think the trucking industry would have switched to gas by now? They haven't because it doesn't make economic sense. I'm pro gasoline. I love my GDI Impala. And I love my gas powered Power Trac tractor. I hate diesel. But even I recognize that gasoline is the wrong tool for the job in conventional tractor applications.

If so then why are you talking about using a DI gasser in a HD application? Only the anti gas crowd is trying to suggest a gasser in a HD application then talk about how it won't work.
Even i will tell you that a DI gasser is not the engine to pull a plough over 1000 acres . Nor is it ideal in a highway tractor running cross country. Not great in a heavy marine application due to explosive fumes and the usual reasons.
As for the price of diesel vs gasoline. This is summer and light sweet crude oil is much cheaper . NG has also replaced some fuel oil demand for winter hearing. Of course diesel prices will be down vs gasoline for a while . Let the seasons change to winter and the price of crude oil climb. Diesel will return to it's 15-30% price over gasoline per gallon.

 

[buickanddeere]

Talk about making stuff up and taking things out of context! I'm not talking about racing car engines, so don't put words into my mouth.

Unfortunately for your ridiculous defense of an engine that doesn't exist, we're not talking about spark ignition engines in light highway applications, or industrial engines that are currently available, so you have ZERO data to work off. Go find a modern DI gasser engine that would be suitable in a CUT/SCUT, and get some data off it, then you'll have actual facts.

Other than that, you're simply guessing and making apples-to-oranges comparisons.

Forklifts, mobile work platforms, generators etc. The small four stroke DI engines in motorcyes,lawn equipment and ATV's already exist. Automotive spark ignitions engines are regularly used in industrial applications.
For putting around with varying rpm, varying loads in light duty applications a spark ignition engine uses less fuel than a diesel. Have you looked at the brake specific fuel consumption of a diesel at 1/3 to 1/2 of max power. How about putting around a Tier IV diesel and all the extra regeneration in the particulate filter ?

 

[buickanddeere]

Right, I'm going to make up a lie about a Corvette to impress some folks on the internet. I wasn't in the car, so I don't know how high the engine was turning, but it had a catastrophic failure and it was in first gear the whole time. The fact remains that a tractor engine won't blow up when subject to that sort of situation....throttle wide open. They are designed so they can't hurt themselves. Light-duty engines aren't designed that way....that's the whole point. If you think I'm lying about it happening, just put me on ignore.

I've been around forklifts a lot and if they aren't light-duty, they're certainly not a heavy-duty cycle. Slamming from forward to reverse, and having weight on the forks etc, has very little bearing on what happens to the engine. They don't spend much time making their rated maximum power, at least in most environments, and that's the critical difference. Time at rated power is the key factor.

There you go , what I been trying to tell you all along. Light , medium or HD applications, they differ in power plant requirements . A modern spark ignition engine works better than a diesel in light/medium duty applications such as a fork lift.

 

[paulfun9]

The fact remains that a tractor engine won't blow up when subject to that sort of situation....throttle wide open. They are designed so they can't hurt themselves. .

Right just as any industrial engine they are governed to only be able to rev within a set parameter. Now take the governor off anything and see what happens. I am not saying you lied about your buddies car but I am sure somehow someone does not have all the facts!

Now go take any gas powered car and run it in first gear without sending the RPM into redline and you will find that if you govern the RPM so that it does not over rev (just as your tractor engine is governed) that it will not blow up

My F150 only has a 300 six and pulling the wagon over the mountain is a stressful job for it as its at more than twice what it should be pulling and it gets held flat to the floor from the bottom of the mountain to the top. About 6 miles flat to the boards in first gear 2 sometimes 3 times a week since 1989 and it has yet to blow up as the work load wont let it get that much RPM. But I could do the same thing with no load if I was to install a governor and have no worries of ever blowing it up. So what we are saying is your argument is mute because you are picking on something buy using examples that simply don't fit what would be the intended use or any realistic design that would be used if a gas engine were to be installed in a scut or a cut.

Now a machine that carries more base weight from the start, lifts and carries more weight overall, at a longer interval being pegged right to the rev limiter/governor when compared to my tractor which carries less weight, lifts less weight and is never run at its max RPM but run close to PTO speed but almost never above, you consider to be light duty? If anything My DK is light duty compared to the lifts I have seen, used and abused.

My next question is how do you know what rated power is for every fork lift built like most of us here know what our tractors rated power is? Fact is the fork lift and industrial engines are built to attain max power (torque) within the rpm they are governed to so that they are useful machines just like your tractor engine is built to attain its most useful power within its governed rpm range.

 

[GManBart]

You are saying that there is no turbo lag? We all know that can't be true

Have you even operated a modern diesel with a turbo? With many/most you really can't notice any turbo lag. This isn't 1972....

 

[AxleHub]

Where has logic gone on this thread?

I'm amazed at how this thread has failed to police itself of the quality of information TBN is normally known for.

Lets start wirh an easy one . . the price of diesel/fuel oil.

1. The price of diesel is down in big ways from just 13 months ago because oil across the globe is no longer a shortage product. The technology for finding and developing has plummeted in price and escalated in capability. As a result we've seen a paradigm shift at the same level of the original diesel engine switching from kerosene fuel to diesel for use.

2. China was by far the largest consumer/user of diesel during a 12 year period of artificial growth from artificial construction that is not sustainable. That transition reverse started 1 year ago and has continued to reduce ever since at a very rapid pace.

3. The quality of oil now developing in the US market has dramatically changed and improved thanks to the newest Bakken shale discoveries. Literally stated . . some of the newest discoveries have no match in other areas of the world in terms of quality of oil. You can expect that diesel capabilities and engine builders will be further improving performance and environmental benefit as the next few years progress by leaps and bounds.

The three points above create a radical upcoming change in the benefits and uses of petro fuels in the US. Diesel will be a huge benefitter as this developes and future "tier xx" choices will take great advantage of it.

Meanwhile both our enemies and our supposed allies in a number of countries are making great and grand efforts to stop our country from maturing any and all of these opportunities and to financially hurt or crush the firms developing these discoveries.

The concept that winter will return oil to its prior super high price and method . . Is either completely uninformed or intentionally blindingly incorrect to mislead and misdirect opinion.

The US capacity to produce fuels is now stunning and ultra quality developing and our enemies and some of our "allies" will do anything to stop it imo . . including selling at a loss for long periods of time or even worse.

 

[AxleHub]

Where has logic gone on this thread?

I'm amazed at how this thread has failed to police itself of the quality of information TBN is normally known for.

Lets start wirh an easy one . . the price of diesel/fuel oil.

Now I want to go to the next lack of logic.

Posters are talking back and forth about gas engines could compete with diesel engines for use in scut and cut tractors.

Yet throughout this long winding thread . . . the use of auto, truck, small engine, atv, and now fork lifts have been used as interchangable examples. They are not interchangable nor are they comparable.

The fact is . . no production gas tractor engines have or are currently produced or being produced in the last 15 years for use in scut or cut tractors by any major or proven tractor company in the world . None . . Zip . . Zero.

The only logic that exists is . . all these many engine builder companies either can not produce a gas product to compete because of cost or because of capability to be comparable to diesel . . . or they don't have the intellectual capacity to defeat the hurdles that the gas engine posters seem to think they posses themselves.

So this thread battles on without logical reason and massive artificailly created proof and "lack of facts" and mis direction efforts.

So the obvious question is then . . . why isn't one or all of these gas engine proponents developing what no one else has if it is so easy and obvious to them?

The answer is . . they just like to argue when facts evade them and their skills to invent a competing product are lacking.

 

[MossRoad]

If so then why are you talking about using a DI gasser in a HD application? Only the anti gas crowd is trying to suggest a gasser in a HD application then talk about how it won't work.
Even i will tell you that a DI gasser is not the engine to pull a plough over 1000 acres . Nor is it ideal in a highway tractor running cross country. Not great in a heavy marine application due to explosive fumes and the usual reasons.
As for the price of diesel vs gasoline. This is summer and light sweet crude oil is much cheaper . NG has also replaced some fuel oil demand for winter hearing. Of course diesel prices will be down vs gasoline for a while . Let the seasons change to winter and the price of crude oil climb. Diesel will return to it's 15-30% price over gasoline per gallon.

You're so focused on finding fault in folks discussions you're turning this into an argument. Keep it at a discussion level. I gave examples of my old tractor that came with diesel and gas engine options. And I gave an example of my current, modern GDI car engine. And many folks have talked about tractor applications for diesel and gas and you just keep yelling that everyone's wrong. You're not winning any converts to the gas side.

 

[DarkBlack]

No. The engines make the same peak power, but the forklift engine isn't designed to run at that rated power continuously for thousands and thousands of hours, where the tractor engine is. The forklift engine is simply built for a lighter duty-cycle than the tractor engine...they rarely stays at rated power for more than a few seconds at a time, where tractor engines run at rated power for many hours at a time.

No, it doesn't make the same peak power, as the gas engine, when compared $ for $ or lb for lb. That's a common diesel reasoning fallacy. Your comparing a much heavier, much more expensive diesel to a lighter, cheaper gas engine. Not fair. If you compare engines of the same price or weight, you would find they are quite comparable. The main drawback to a gas engine is it throws more wasted heat energy than the diesel, and the fuel is flammable/unstable.
You can get a V8 gas engine of the same price or weight as a 3, or 4 cylinder diesel. The equal $, or weight V8 can be geared to run 'just above idle' and would make the same power as the smaller diesel. At that low RPM the gas engine could last 'forever'. The big drawback...again..is the big gas engine would use more fuel.

 

[AxleHub]

No, it doesn't make the same peak power, as the gas engine, when compared $ for $ or lb for lb. That's a common diesel reasoning fallacy. Your comparing a much heavier, much more expensive diesel to a lighter, cheaper gas engine. Not fair. If you compare engines of the same price or weight, you would find they are quite comparable. The main drawback to a gas engine is it throws more wasted heat energy than the diesel, and the fuel is flammable/unstable.
You can get a V8 gas engine of the same price or weight as a 3, or 4 cylinder diesel. The equal $, or weight V8 can be geared to run 'just above idle' and would make the same power as the smaller diesel. At that low RPM the gas engine could last 'forever'. The big drawback...again..is the big gas engine would use more fuel.

Lol. Lol. Darkblack . . . you really neef to get coordinated with the other gas engine believers because you're telling conflicting stories. One guy tells us a gas engine 35 hp would be the same displacement as my Iseki. But then when I say that a 35 hp gas engine with equivalent cooling capacity would be more expensive to produce . .. then that conversation goes quiet. Now you're telling us another story.

Go out and invent the gas engine for a scut . . because nobody has seen one . . Until then you've got nothing but guesses and weak assumptions.