Help ordering hydraulic fittings (for rear remote)

[rswyan]

OK it's labeled "PB" you can see it in the pic.

Got it now - the "PB" is partially obscured by the rubber cap for the hydraulic coupler in the picture.

This could be the case. What problem does this cause?

Just a guess on my part:

It could cause damage to the functionality of the valve ... perhaps even including catastrophic failure of the valve's casting.

I dunno how likely the latter is, but if a manufacturer states that the pressure at the valve's return port shouldn't exceed a certain value (500 psi say), like J J has said, there's probably a valid reason for it.

Given the location of the valve (right next to the operator's station) the possibility exists of getting sprayed with hot hydraulic fluid, if not actually hit with flying metal.

 

[rswyan]

I don't know. Only recall one in the middle of the tractor but I will look again.

See the picture of the installation instruction for the rear hydraulic block I attached in post no. 19 - which shows the rear hydraulic block, and it's location on the tractor.

In the lower right corner of that picture, there is an illustration of the rear hydraulic block itself.

Is a "block" just a simple "connection block"?

Yes.

Does it have other functions inside (check valves etc)?

No.

 

[rswyan]

Sodo,

I'm going to give you the flow path for your machine based on what I see in the pictures which you have provided.

It will assume that you do not have the rear hydraulic block installed ... because based on the hose routing shown in the pictures, it appears that you don't.

It would also be helpful if we could see a side view (of the inboard side) of the Dinoil valve being used for your rear remotes - in order to determine whether the Dinoil valve is even power beyond capable. It appears to me that there may be a plug there ... which might be for a power-beyond adapter.

Also the model number of the valve would be useful ... but unless you have an invoice or instruction sheet for the Dinoil valve itself, you may not have a way to obtain the model number (slight possibility that there could be a sticker or label still on the valve)

Flow path:

1. Output from hydraulic pump ---> outlet on mid hydraulic block (internal on the tractor)

2. Outlet on mid hydraulic block ---> inlet on FEL control valve (external, via a hose)

3. Power beyond outlet on FEL control valve ---> inlet on Dinoil rear remote valve (external, via a hose)

4. Return (to tank/reservoir) on Dinoil rear remote valve ---> (power beyond) inlet on mid hydraulic block (external, via a hose)

5. (Power beyond) inlet on mid hydraulic block ---> 3PH control valve (internal on the tractor)

6. Return outlet on 3PH control valve ---> tank/reservoir (internal on the tractor)

It appears that the problem is at no. 4 above: return port on Dinoil valve being used for power beyond.

Additionally there is one line/hose running from the return outlet/port on the FEL control valve to the tank/reservoir port on the side of the tractor's case in the rear.

 

[BukitCase]

Here's some stuff that may help - (NOT specific to your Kubota)

hydraulic supermarket | technical library

More to the point -
How to configure mobile hydraulic valves using power beyond

As already mentioned, most hydraulic valves, either stacked (modular) or monoblock (what you bought is what you got, period) do NOT like to see more than typically 500 psi in the Tank gallery - so when you're not actually using a valve, the flow from the pump just passes thru the valve galleries and back to tank.

The portion of the casting that has the tank port may(or may not) also have an OPTIONAL PB port - if that option is NOT installed, then the tank gallery and the PB gallery are all connected, and pressure in that section stays low and returns fluid back to the tank.

Without PB, the extra port (PB) is plugged with a standard pipe plug (usually) - In order to add PB to such a valve, you remove the standard pipe plug from the PB port and REPLACE it with a PB adapter - this is essentially a glorified THROUGH adapter - it has a hole clear through, and various output threads depending on the manufacturer/model -

The DIFFERENCE in this PB adapter, is it ALSO has a STEPPED outer body, with O-ring seals between the steps - when it is inserted into the PB port, the innermost O-ring BLOCKS the connection between Tank gallery (low pressure only, seals NOT designed for high pressure) and the PB gallery (made for high pressure) -

Here's the PB adapter for Prince Stack valves, showing the stepped outer sleeve and the O-rings that separate the two galleries

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...-BEYOND-SLEEVE-FOR-PRINCE-SV-VALVE-9SV-PB.axd

So NOW, with the PB adapter in place, if you don't move any levers in the valve body, flow ONLY goes thru the PB adapter and on to the next valve in line, and finally to tank. (still at high pressure, but ONLY if you're actuating a valve (to a toplink, for example) -

In a typical open center system, when you actuate ANY cylinder from ANY valve, flow is re-directed - either to the "A" or "B" WORK port - whichever port (A or B) is pressurized, the OTHER work port gets routed to the Tank gallery to relieve pressure on the other side of the cylinder's piston - otherwise, the cylinder can't move.

Without a PB adapter in a control valve, ALL the pump flow just goes IN the Pressure port and OUT the Tank port UNTIL you move a lever, and a gauge placed ANYWHERE in that path will only read as much pressure as would be caused by various restrictions in tubing, hoses, open valves, etc.

WITH a PB adapter installed, the TANK port only feeds back to tank when a spool on THAT valve is moved - otherwise, ALL fluid continues on thru the circuit thru the PB adapter.

Not sure I cleared up ALL your questions, but hopefully it's a start... Steve

 

[rswyan]

Ok, let's see if we can sort some of this out:

My FEL valve has a port labeled PB, and it goes to the yellow-banded line on the small block at mid-tractor.

Please recheck this ... if what you say above is true, then your FEL valve is also plumbed incorrectly (because the fluid supply from the tractor's hydraulic pump would be being fed - via the mid hydraulic block - to the power beyond port of the FEL valve, rather than the inlet port of the FEL valve - that's backwards)

The line from the forward port on the mid-hydraulic block should go to the inlet of the FEL valve.

The line from the port labeled "PB" on the FEL valve should go to the inlet of the Dinoil valve.

 

[BukitCase]

Found this, don't remember where I got it - Steve

Oh, even though PB and IN are reversed I'm not sure it would matter since the PB adapter makes those two ports CONNECTED to each other, but NOT to the Tank port??!?

 

[rswyan]

Found this, don't remember where I got it - Steve

Good stuff.

Oh, even though PB and IN are reversed I'm not sure it would matter since the PB adapter makes those two ports CONNECTED to each other, but NOT to the Tank port??!?

Interesting point

 

[J_J]

BukitCase

The diagram you posted is correct.

The PB floe from the FEL is going to the new valve IN port and the PB from the new valve is going downstream.

If he did not use the the optional rear hyd blk, then the FEL flow would go to the IN port of the three spool valve and the PB flow from the three spool valve should go back to the hyd blk and the flow will continue to the 3pt.

All tank lines go to tank period.

 

[Sodo]

Thank you guys so very much.

RS I'll take your flow path and follow it, see if it looks right. I like the image Steve, will put it on my phone.

I understand this much better now, and when I go out to my tractor this weekend I'll follow the hoses & get it right. Will be there for Mem day weekend. If anyone can find a good schematic of what my system ought to be, that may help too. Sure hope I can add PB to the Dinoil, if they are $18 & a hose that doesn't hurt much (and do I have to add the rear Hydr block too?)

 

[rswyan]

Thank you guys so very much.

RS I'll take your flow path and follow it, see if it looks right.

I'll be awaiting your report.

I understand this much better now, and when I go out to my tractor this weekend I'll follow the hoses & get it right. Will be there for Mem day weekend. If anyone can find a good schematic of what my system ought to be, that may help too.

I'll have a look in my Kubota Workshop manual ... not sure, but it may cover the B2710 as well as the B2910/B7800.

Sure hope I can add PB to the Dinoil, if they are $18 & a hose that doesn't hurt much ...

You'll need one more item (see below)

(and do I have to add the rear Hydr block too?)

No you wouldn't have to.

You could just run a hose from the (new) power beyond outlet on the rear remote valve to the power beyond inlet on the mid hydraulic block. Basically just move the hose that's attached to the return port on the rear remote valve now to the new power beyond outlet on the rear remote valve.

Then pick up a hose to run from the return port on the rear remote valve to to the tank/reservoir return port on the side of the tractor.

Then you add a JIC run tee to the tank/reservoir return port on the side of the tractor (to allow connection of two return hoses - the one from the FEL valve and the one from the rear remotes)

Possibly this one would work (the exact fitting or fittings depends on the clearances you have to work with and what thread connection you get on the new hose):

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Adapters-Fittings/JIC-to-JIC/JIC-Male-to-JIC-Female-Swivel-to-JIC-Male-Run-Tee/JIC-6M-x-JIC-6F-SWIVEL-x-JIC-6M-RUN-TEE-9-6602-6-6-6.axd

 

[rswyan]

Sodo,

Here's a pic of the return to tank port location, JIC run tee and associated fittings (plugged off since my rear remote valve is currently off the tractor) on my B2910 ... your return port may be in the same location (below and in front of the dipstick):

My fitting arrangement (JIC run tee + 45 + 90) was needed to accommodate routing the hose to the original location my rear remote valve was in ... best to avoid so many fittings if at all possible.

 

[Sodo]

OK RS, your description is correct and helped me to follow & identify the lines.

I included a pic of both sides of the Dinoil valve. What does the "P" signify? Also whats the component the right of the "P"?

Can a PB be added here (the upper plug)? Should I remove this plug, photo/measure it etc? Or will it be just a Dinoil 'standard'?

I suppose this is "return to the tank" where I add the a Tee (and the new hose from the "out"). And move the current "out" hose over to the new PB. Assuming I can get a PB valve for this rig.

This thread has been very informative and it looks like I have a plan ------ that all hinges on whether a PB can be added to this valve.

 

[Sodo]

RS, looks like we were posting at the same time. Thanks for revisiting this.

Is this a 'return port'? The hose is from the "OUT" on my FEL valve. Do I need to disassemble and look at it?

My tractor is 100 miles from home, so it gets a little nerve wracking sometimes ordering parts like this from home.

 

[rswyan]

OK RS, your description is correct and helped me to follow & identify the lines.

Good deal.

I included a pic of both sides of the Dinoil valve. What does the "P" signify?

Not really familiar with how Dinoil (Italian company I believe) marks their valves ... but maybe "P" is for "Pressure" ?

Also whats the component the right of the "P"?

That appears to be the pressure relief (valve) for the entire rear remote valve assembly.

It's likely adjustable - so that the pressure where the (rear remote) valve goes into relief and bypasses fluid back to the tank can be set (independently, from any other valves in the chain) for your rear remote valves.

One thing to know about that is: in an open-center system, plumbed in series, the maximum pressure for any valve will be controlled by the relief on any valves which are upstream of it in the chain.

IOW: if the relief on your FEL valve is set to 2000 psi, you can set a lower relief pressure on the Dinoil valve ... but setting a higher pressure (on the Dinoil valve) will functionally do nothing ... because the FEL valve will go into relief once the pressure reaches 2000 psi ...

Can a PB be added here (the upper plug)?

I'm guessing that either the upper plug or the side plug could be removed and a power-beyond adapter could be added, assuming that Dinoil makes one for that valve. (It may be one or the other but not both - the port has to be machine for the adapter to seat and seal)

IOW: it appears (to me) that the valve might be designed for conversion to a power-beyond capability.

Should I remove this plug, photo/measure it etc? Or will it be just a Dinoil 'standard'?

I would think it should be standard ... but the particular valve (model, series, etc.) may need to be indentified in order to get the correct one. (Different adapters for different sized valves with different flow rates, etc.)

I suppose this is "return to the tank"

Looks to be ...

where I add the a Tee (and the new hose from the "out"). And move the current "out" hose over to the new PB.

Correct.

Assuming I can get a PB valve for this rig.

Yup

This thread has been very informative and it looks like I have a plan ------ that all hinges on whether a PB can be added to this valve.

Good luck on your search for the PB adapter.

 

[BukitCase]

I just re-read this entire thread, and I'm still wondering -

Where/when did we get from "I wanna use the un-used middle valve" to "I wanna add another separate valve body" ??!?

:confused3::confused2:

 

[rswyan]

It isn't a question so much of wanting to add another separate valve assembly, as it is getting the one he has (for his rear remotes) plumbed correctly ...

 

[Sodo]

The goal remains ..... To put QCs on the the middle valve, that it may be used.

In fact I am still wondering what is the REAL effect that will be made - by adding the PB circuit. I hear "its better", it's the "correct way" to do hydraulics (nowadays). I would like to know, what is the specific detriment to leaving it "as-is".

Sorry I just have to know these things, it helps me to understand.

 

[BukitCase]

OK, got it -

Have you ever found an actual part # for your Dinoil valve? Some have a raised casting # right on the valve, Prince does this - it can be confusing tho, it's not always the same # as the PART # that part is listed under.

I mis-spoke a few page back, PB adapters are NOT usually pipe threads. Don't remember what Prince uses, but they're parallel threads - most likely ORB (SAE O-ring)

Disadvantage of leaving it like it is - maybe nothing, but it's more likely that (if your system is NOT plumbed to the correct ports) the tank seals just haven't blown YET.

The "P" on your valve is supposed to be the inlet, "P" can stand for "Pressure", "Pump"; and the plug on the END of the valve, next to the "P" port that's connected, is nearly always just an alternate choice for connecting the inlet.

On the OPPOSITE end of the valve, if you have the same two ports, typically one will be set up for either the simple plug, or (if installed) the PB adapter. Only ONE of the two adjacent ports will be set up for an (optional) PB adapter because of the required internal machining.

AFAIK, the only way to be sure is to either have the EXACT manual for that valve, or take the (hopefully TWO) fittings off that end of the valve (probably labeled "T" or "PB", and look inside with an inspection mirror and a strong light - if, in EITHER of the ports, you see a MACHINED circle DIRECTLY in line with the outer threads, then it's a very good chance that port can be either "Tank", or "PB", depending on whether or not you put a PB adapter in that hole.

IF that output is going ANYWHERE but back to Tank, you should have a PB adapter there - otherwise, odds are REALLY good you will eventually (if not already) have messed up seals in the valve.

When you get back to the tractor, the very FIRST thing I would suggest is to (with your new-found EXPERT status ) re-trace your system and make sure things follow the basic rules - high pressure lines should ALWAYS go from Pump to Inlet, Tank ports ONLY go to tank (and may be teed), Outlets to the NEXT device ALWAYS come from PB ports EXCEPT for the last device in the path, which can/should be a Tank port which ONLY returns to Tank.

Without doing your own CUSTOM/ACCURATE roadmap, this thread'll get even LONGER, but probably NOT any CLEARER ... Steve

 

[Sodo]

high pressure lines should ALWAYS go from Pump to Inlet
Tank ports ONLY go to tank (and may be teed)
Outlets to the NEXT device ALWAYS come from PB ports EXCEPT for the last device in the path, which can/should be a Tank port which ONLY returns to Tank.

I'm digesting this. Does my outlet from the Dinoil valve go to the "Tank port"? Or does it go to NEXT device (3-pt hitch control) ?

===========

Here's pics with plugs removed on my Dinoil valve., I don't see anything that looks like it's ready for a PB adapter. Seems silly to me, why wouldn't they make every valve body ready for PB? Do I need to look inside the "OUT" port? I shoulda, but ran out of time and had to absquatulate. Again, I'm 100 miles away from my tractor. But always come back to her its like my 2nd wife.

 

[rswyan]

I'm digesting this. Does my outlet from the Dinoil valve go to the "Tank port"? Or does it go to NEXT device (3-pt hitch control) ?

Based on the pics you have supplied thus far, it appears that the only line/hose running to the tank port on the tractor is coming from your FEL control valve.

And the "out" line/hose from the Dinoil valve goes to the inlet side of mid hydraulic block (said block being part of a power beyond path/chain)

So the answer to your first question above is "no" and the answer to thew second is "yes" ...

BTW - The reason why I said "out" immediately above is because of what you wrote below:

Here's pics with plugs removed on my Dinoil valve., I don't see anything that looks like it's ready for a PB adapter.

You didn't remove the fitting that the "out" hose is connected to ...

What does it look like inside that port ?

IOW: it may be possible - based on what we already know is incorrect - that whoever cobbled this thing together skipped using the return to tank ports on the Dinoil valve ... and used the power beyond port on the valve - without the proper adapter - and then just skipped using a return hose/line to the tank altogether.

Seems silly to me, why wouldn't they make every valve body ready for PB?

Cost.

Do I need to look inside the "OUT" port?

Yupper ...

I shoulda, but ran out of time and had to "leave hurriedly" & now I'm 100 miles away from my tractor. But always come back to her its like my 2nd wife.

Take a peek next time you're there ...