Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[PoorPlowboy]

Let's hope she never needs glow plugs or injectors past warranty .

DI gas injectors are not any cheaper, and are just was fragile. Can you remind me again how you plan to legally fuel you DI gas tractor without driving it to the pump or slaving away 5 gallons at a time? How many spark plugs and coil packs have you had to change on a diesel? How many plastic intake manifolds with active variable intake runners (at $1700 each) have you had to replace on a diesel? How many times have you had to clean the garbage out of a throttle body on a diesel? Ever had a mass airflow sensor or idle air control give you **** on a diesel?

I can go on all day long. Just say when you finally see my point. DI gas engines and their 50 required sensors and circuits with fragile electronic controls DO NOT belong on a working tractor.

 

[paulfun9]

The EPA mileage tests are an even plying field to obtain and apples to apples comparison of mileage. Who should be believed about a machines performance? Lab techs using calibrated equipment under known repeatable conditions ? Or what some Bubba on the Internet or down at the tavern says his vehicle is getting for mileage?
.

I laugh at most EPA fuel consumption listings! To this day I haven't gotten the MPG they ESTIMATED on a vehicle I purchased. I know I am just some BUBBA on the internet but since I have built more engines than I can actually remember I figure maybe just maybe that counts for something!

 

[paulfun9]

So testing a car on a dyno equals "Lab techs using calibrated equipment under known repeatable conditions". I guess in a way you are right. Dyno will give the same numbers for the car every time. How that translates to "real world" conditions is beyond me.



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A little info for those who haven't spent any real time with a Dyno. If you put a car on a dyno and test it today you will get one number. Leave that same car on the dyno till tomorrow morning and test it again and you will get a different reading. Most folks would be surprised at the difference I can obtain just testing their car at different times of the day without making any changes to the tune.

 

[buickanddeere]

Yeah that got me thinking of the ford Gas -diesel comparisons like the early Ford 2000 series with the 158 gas and diesel engine.

diesel pto hp 32.09hp gas 30.85 hp
draw bar hp diesel 28.10hp gas 26.49hp

Fuel consumption Gas 10.79 horsepower-hours per gallon


diesel 14.23 horsepower-hours per gallon


Major difference in fuel operating cost...

Back in the 1960's with carburators and when diesel cost less than gasoline . What has the pump price of diesel vs gasoline been since 2006?
Are you at all familiar with the design and operation of a DI gasoline engine vs a carburated gasoline engine ?
Are you aware how much improved the thermal efficiency is of a 12.5 to 1 DI gas with variable cam timing vs a 7 to 1 carburated gas engine ?

 

[buickanddeere]

A little info for those who haven't spent any real time with a Dyno. If you put a car on a dyno and test it today you will get one number. Leave that same car on the dyno till tomorrow morning and test it again and you will get a different reading. Most folks would be surprised at the difference I can obtain just testing their car at different times of the day without making any changes to the tune.

That is why the pro labs note the temperarure, humidity and atmospheric pressure . Should see the difference the weather makes on the take off distances for aircraft.
Running the dyno oil at the same temp makes a difference too.

 

[buickanddeere]

Hutch. Re post #132. If manufactures are all cheating and inaccurate as Hyundi with over rated mileage.How does so many drivers here exceed the EPA numbers ?

 

[buickanddeere]

DI gas injectors are not any cheaper, and are just was fragile. Can you remind me again how you plan to legally fuel you DI gas tractor without driving it to the pump or slaving away 5 gallons at a time? How many spark plugs and coil packs have you had to change on a diesel? How many plastic intake manifolds with active variable intake runners (at $1700 each) have you had to replace on a diesel? How many times have you had to clean the garbage out of a throttle body on a diesel? Ever had a mass airflow sensor or idle air control give you **** on a diesel?

Some diesels do have a mass air flow sensor .
No problems with the MAF sensors here since the 1990's as long a the air filter is clean and in place. Most get ruined with Bubba installing an over oiled K&N filter upstream. Odd how that modification is rarely mentioned.
Manifold leaks only occur on gasoline engines ?
I can purchase an entire complete long block DI gas engine for the price of a set of diesel common rail injectors and glow plugs.
Coil packs are reliable . Certainly simple to replace at home on the rare occasion they fail. They outlast glow plugs for certain.
How and why do airplanes fly reliably with high output gasoline engines instead of diesel. If diesel is so superior and gasoline unreliable .

I can go on all day long. Just say when you finally see my point. DI gas engines and their 50 required sensors and circuits with fragile electronic controls DO NOT belong on a working tractor.

......

 

[GManBart]

Amazing how you so conveniently missed posting the rpm, torque and HP of the 4020 gas and diesel.
Why is it such a surprise to you and something for you to post
when I have already told you how many times how lousy the carburated gasoline engine was in the days of points distributers and when diesel 3/4 the price per gallon of gasoline. That was 50 years ago. Is this still current news to you?
Take a look on the wall, the calendar says 2015. Diesel has cost more per btu than gasoline since 2006 when ULSD was introduced. The tractors of today have Tier IV emissions equipment that you paid for up front and will pay to service after warranty runs out.
Today in light duty applications the DI gas is lower cost to purchase than diesel and has lower fuel operating costs. Cost to service that emissions equipment will cost less after warrenty expires on the simpler gas engine.

What are you talking about? I DID post the horsepower and RPM of the two engines. :confused2:

Again, you are the one bringing up 50 year old engines....not me. I've repeatedly said I'm only talking about the newest versions of both types of engines, and you keep bringing up old iron.

Yes, diesel has cost more than gasoline since ULSD was introduced, and when the costs incurred by the refineries are paid off, the price of diesel will drop back lower than the cost of gasoline....just like it has in the rest of the world. See, this has already happened in the rest of the world, but you refuse to accept what has happened everywhere else will happen here. Reality check....it's largely the same companies involved, so what happened in Europe, will happen here, and it's going to happen pretty soon....the price of diesel and gas has been getting closer for the last two years. In my field we call that a "clue."

The emissions equipment on a Tier IV tractor is ridiculously simple compared to the systems on gas automobiles right now. Why don't you talk about the requirement to eventually replace catalytic converters, and other expensive components that almost always fail after warranty periods expire?

 

[GManBart]

The traditional diesel was by default a low rpm engine due to the short duration cam timing. Otherwise it would not start due to low cylinder pressure and thus low cylinder temperature.
Short cam timing is fine for 1000-2200rpm operation but it falls flat on it's face at higher rpms.
The gasoline engine can have the cam ground for more duration and improved airflow, this power at higher rpms.
Of course now with double over head cams with independent timing on both the intake and exhaust cams. The torque curve is now flattened instead of a sharp peak.
The gasser and even the diesel at part load ****** the intake cam so some of the combustion chamber air is pushed out. It gives a gasser a 3 or 4 to 1 compression ratio for less pumping and heating losses. Yet maintains the 12 to 1 expansion ratio on the power stroke.
The diesel when "throttled" with reduced intake charge improves it's part throttle thermal efficiency by not pumping unused cold air through the engine.
The diesel and gasser both benefit from wider power bands. Where do you think both engines gained the low speed torque and high rpm HP? The fiat diesel in the Dodge , Cruze and Canyon revs to 3800rpm to make peak HP.
Having actual flame and combustion with 90degrees crank angle is a waste of fuel and just adds heat to the cooling system through the cylinder walls.
The most effective use of fuel is by having peak combustion chamber pressure at and just after TDC. Why do you think spark advance is used ahead of TDC ? Back the timing off 20 degrees on any gas or diesel and the engine will loose power.
Depending on compression ratio, combustion chamber shape and fuel.flame propagation in a combustion chamber varies from 33 to 82ft per second . Hence the need to have combustion take place when the combustion chamber is smallest.

Hmmm....with all of those things in favor of the DI gasser, I'm confused about one thing. How is it possible that the Chevy Cruze you mentioned gets 8mpg less on the highway, has 13hp less, and 116lb/ft less torque? That's a typical light-duty cycle that the EPA puts them through, so the DI gasser should be way better than that diesel, but it's not. Funny....

 

[buickanddeere]

Hmmm....with all of those things in favor of the DI gasser, I'm confused about one thing. How is it possible that the Chevy Cruze you mentioned gets 8mpg less on the highway, has 13hp less, and 116lb/ft less torque? That's a typical light-duty cycle that the EPA puts them through, so the DI gasser should be way better than that diesel, but it's not. Funny....

The DI gas chosen for the vehicle is a smaller , lower output engine than the diesel. How is that a mystery, a point or concern? We are talking the same cruze Delta II chassis with gas vs Diesel engine .
The point is which are skirting is the gas costs less per mile . The gas car costs less to purchase than the diesel car. The Diesel was cost more to service in the future . Last Cat Converter I priced was $169 for a Terrain.
The V8 gas engine in the Camero makes more power than a Duramax Diesel, so what.
You are stuck thinking of a Gas engine in a 300HP field tractor performing heavy tillage. Not the case.The DI gas is for the light duty under 50HP CUT, boats, ATV, RTV, lawn equipment , light highway vehicles etc.

 

[GManBart]

The DI gas chosen for the vehicle is a smaller , lower output engine than the diesel. How is that a mystery, a point or concern? We are talking the same cruze Delta II chassis with gas vs Diesel engine .
The point is which are skirting is the gas costs less per mile . The gas car costs less to purchase than the diesel car. The Diesel was cost more to service in the future . Last Cat Converter I priced was $169 for a Terrain.
The V8 gas engine in the Camero makes more power than a Duramax Diesel, so what.
You are stuck thinking of a Gas engine in a 300HP field tractor performing heavy tillage. Not the case.The DI gas is for the light duty under 50HP CUT, boats, ATV, RTV, lawn equipment , light highway vehicles etc.

I'm not stuck on anything. The larger diesel, which makes more power and gobs more torque gets better fuel mileage....simple. All of the "advantages" you claim for the DI gasser don't change reality.

When the artificially high diesel prices correct back below gas prices, the way they have in the rest of the world, there won't be any way to argue your point.

 

[buickanddeere]

I'm not stuck on anything. The larger diesel, which makes more power and gobs more torque gets better fuel mileage....simple. All of the "advantages" you claim for the DI gasser don't change reality.

When the artificially high diesel prices correct back below gas prices, the way they have in the rest of the world, there won't be any way to argue your point.

Why would diesel become cheaper in the US ? The oil companies like the profits.
Do you deny the gasoline Cruze costs less per mile than the diesel Cruze. If you look at pickup trucks the gas also costs less per mile than diesel.
If you wish to drive a performance vehicle, neither the diesel or gas Cruze qualify as "performance".

 

[GManBart]

Why would diesel become cheaper in the US ? The oil companies like the profits.
Do you deny the gasoline Cruze costs less per mile than the diesel Cruze. If you look at pickup trucks the gas also costs less per mile than diesel.
If you wish to drive a performance vehicle, neither the diesel or gas Cruze qualify as "performance".

Again, you don't read what other people write. I've already pointed out why diesel will drop down lower than gasoline. For one, that's what has happened in the rest of the world after the refineries pay off the up front ULSD costs. Two, most of those companies are worldwide companies, so what they've done in other countries is very likely what they're going to do in this country. Three, you may have noticed that the price of gas has dropped dramatically in the last few months...like by 50% or so? They like profits, but they dropped the price of gas because their costs went down....and they didn't make a minor change, they made a drastic change. If they were operating on your philosophy, they might have dropped the price 10% and people would have been happy while they made record profits....didn't happen.

I'm don't "deny" anything. I've said what is factual; a diesel Cruze uses less fuel per mile than a gasoline Cruze. The price of those two fuels will drive the final "cost per mile" and there is no way around that.

I never said a Cruze was a performance vehicle, I said the diesel model performs better. If I was buying a relatively inexpensive, fuel efficient vehicle, I'd be happy to pay more for the diesel option if it performed better and got better fuel mileage.

Why do you keep avoiding the topic that the DI gasser is smaller, and has all sorts of benefits (according to you), but it gets worse fuel economy, makes less power, and gobs less torque? That's proof your theory is completely flawed.

 

[hutchman]

Why do you keep avoiding the topic that the DI gasser is smaller, and has all sorts of benefits (according to you), but it gets worse fuel economy, makes less power, and gobs less torque? That's proof your theory is completely flawed.

And causes more pollution than my pre-2007 diesel without a DPF.

 

[buickanddeere]

Again, you don't read what other people write. I've already pointed out why diesel will drop down lower than gasoline. For one, that's what has happened in the rest of the world after the refineries pay off the up front ULSD costs. Two, most of those companies are worldwide companies, so what they've done in other countries is very likely what they're going to do in this country. Three, you may have noticed that the price of gas has dropped dramatically in the last few months...like by 50% or so? They like profits, but they dropped the price of gas because their costs went down....and they didn't make a minor change, they made a drastic change. If they were operating on your philosophy, they might have dropped the price 10% and people would have been happy while they made record profits....didn't happen.

I'm don't "deny" anything. I've said what is factual; a diesel Cruze uses less fuel per mile than a gasoline Cruze. The price of those two fuels will drive the final "cost per mile" and there is no way around that.

I never said a Cruze was a performance vehicle, I said the diesel model performs better. If I was buying a relatively inexpensive, fuel efficient vehicle, I'd be happy to pay more for the diesel option if it performed better and got better fuel mileage.

Why do you keep avoiding the topic that the DI gasser is smaller, and has all sorts of benefits (according to you), but it gets worse fuel economy, makes less power, and gobs less torque? That's proof your theory is completely flawed.

I already told you the reasons but you don't read.
Diesel is not coming down in the US because there is more profit to me made.
The refinery upgrades and equipment were paid off between 2009 and 2011 in the standard business model. The price of ULSD is not coming down due to lower refining costs.
Other countries around the world diesel is not cheaper because it's lower cost to produce. Diesel is cheaper because the governments tax diesel lass than gasoline.
Are you denying the gas Cruze costs less to purchase, costs less for fuel per miles and future service costs will be lower than diesel?

 

[buickanddeere]

And causes more pollution than my pre-2007 diesel without a DPF.

How about a 2015 gas vs 2015 pollution? The again who cares, both are clean. It's just it costs more to make the heavier dirtier diesel fuel burn as clean as gasoline.

 

[MossRoad]

Are you denying the gas Cruze costs less to purchase, costs less for fuel per miles and future service costs will be lower than diesel?

Since we're talking tractors, the gas Cruze can't do nearly the same amount of work as the diesel version so the comparison is kind of dissimilar. You have mentioned that people don't need that power in a car. Are you suggesting they don't need it in a tractor? Face it. Gasoline engines can't stay in the torque curve when a load is applied as well as diesel engines. Its a fact. Until that gas engine is developed that can match the torque holding ability of a diesel, you'll never see the return of gas engines in modern tractors.

Personally, I hate diesel engines. My current tractor is gas. My cars are gas. One's a GDI. I love it. But facts are facts and you're beating a dead horse here. Gas engines in cars designed to move people from point A to point B can't be compared to tractors designed to do hard work for long periods of time. Its two completely different tasks. While my IH2500b had a gas engine, and it could do serious work, it was only a power source for a hydraulic pump. It had to be run at near full throttle to provide the hydraulic pressure needed to turn the wheels and PTO effectively. While the diesel equivalent of the same tractor was close to the same power, it had better fuel economy and the diesel engine was simpler. Why didn't IH keep putting gas engines in tractors? Why are most tractors in the last 40-50 years diesel? Why are most (I think all) large trucks diesel? Why are train engines diesel? Ship engines? I can't think of any modern heavy equipment at all that uses gasoline for a fuel. There's a reason for that. Diesel works better in those applications because it stays in the torque curve better. Gas engines don't.

 

[sd455dan]

Back in the 1960's with carburators and when diesel cost less than gasoline . What has the pump price of diesel vs gasoline been since 2006?
Are you at all familiar with the design and operation of a DI gasoline engine vs a carburated gasoline engine ?
Are you aware how much improved the thermal efficiency is of a 12.5 to 1 DI gas with variable cam timing vs a 7 to 1 carburated gas engine ?

Yes I am aware of many of the new advancements in engine design- heck i would love to own a new Vette with a hopped up LS engine getting 30+ mpg hi-way and new Muscle car power.


Newest v-8 i own is a LT-1
I am more into OLD school

Kind of busy building- a .030 Pontiac 455 (462) by borrowing old research done by Jim hand ( 4000 + lbs. 1970 Lemans wagon that has run 11.60 in the quarter @ 117) optimizing the pontiac 455 inherent strengths and utilizing vintage pontiac tech.
Engine is going into a sub 2800 lb. vehicle... I think it will have (adequate) passing power

Also customizing an 800 cfm Q-jet using Cliff Ruggles Q-jet book. The fuel curves on an optimized q jet have in some cases exceeded test mileage runs when compared to FAST efi systems utilizing wide band o2 feed back... although FAST now has had a few years to tweak fuel tables (open loop) ... in combination with changes to closed loop operation.


When i looked up the old ford diesels vs. gas there is virtually No difference in the engines ability to get the job done -and that includes low rpm torque output.

Personally i see no reason the manufacturers couldn't build a new hi tech gas tractor with up to 100 hp with little problem.

Still have doubts that it would come out very well- as far as fuel efficiency vs. a diesel especially when the ground engaging tasks start.

 

[Danny C]

25hp is 25 hp is 25hp.... same for gas or diesel. Its the ability of the diesel with most likely a larger displacement and longer crank arms to keep itself in the torque range easier than a gas engine that makes it able to not bog down when you hit tall grass.

25hp isn't 25hp. A 25hp diesel engine will make more torque than a 25hp gas engine, and will do it at a lower RPM with a much better torque curve. That is why most tractors use diesel rather than gas and diesels. Torque is important to keep hydraulic pumps and PTOs running.

 

[hutchman]

I kind of wasn't wanting to get into this but "performance" keeps coming up and the poor diesel is being painted as something only your grandpa would drive. Today's diesel isn't you daddy's car. In 2006 Audi started racing a TDI (diesel) R10 at Le Mans and it cleaned up. While everyone was in the pits refueling the R10 sipping Diesel was busy cleaning everyone's clock. Audi R10 TDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Diesels From Audi and Peugeot at Le Mans - Why Audi and Peugeot Diesels Rule the Le Mans Raceway

The mileage numbers I've mentioned on TBN are on my chip tuned TDI. I have a custom tune, larger injectors, intake and exhaust ported. I can do more if I change turbos but my current setup will run 24psi boost. That psi boost is huge compared to what a gasser will handle. So while my TDI was 90HP stock with around 150ft. lbs. of torque, it is now around 140-160HP and has around 300ft. lbs. of torque ... around the same as my F-150.

I was in the process of getting a custom tune for my F-150 engine and transmission (the factory shift points are totally ignorant), headers and exhaust work, dropping the radiator fan/clutch for an e-fan etc. ... and I would of gotten a few MPG's more. I didn't complete all these mods because I realized I wouldn't enjoy it much as I couldn't afford for it to be my daily driver. So those mods went into the TDI. So I can drive the TDI like I stole it and have all kinds of fun wearing out my tires and still get 41MPG combined. So any of you that doubt a diesel can be "performance" AND economical, just read about the Audi I mentioned our come by my house and take my car for a spin. I guarantee it will put a smile on your face.