Hydraulic Top Link Drawbacks

[Furu]

I have a similar cylinder from Surplus Center. It is worth it. I have not had the check valves and cannot see the need for them on a top link.

I did have a clearance issue where the cylinder hooked up to the tractor. I cut off the original ball end and added a weld on ball swivel and problem is solved.

Which one did you get?
What was the clearance issue?
Did it not have a ball swivel on it?

 

[chevy]

I also will never go back to a standard top link after using hydraulic one.

Aside from keeping the cylinder from settling, the check valve is also a safety device.
If a hose ruptures while an implement is raised off of the ground, the implement will not drop.

 

[Wnc3]

True.
But many/most remotes valves do not have float feature anyway.
I know mine does not have the float feature, so its a non issue.

Is the check valve internal or an add on to the cylinder? I know they use these on cranes and man hoist, but did not think of it for my T&T.

 

[bumperm]

Is the check valve internal or an add on to the cylinder? I know they use these on cranes and man hoist, but did not think of it for my T&T.

The POCV (pilot operated check valve) is external, but is sometimes included with the cylinder - this one has dual (DPOCV) for both extend and retract: 2X8.25X1.18 CAT I HYD DA TOP LINK CYL

However, for the tilt cylinder, one is normally only concerned with having a check valve on the extend function. I added one of these to my tilt cylinder, it was the smallest one I could find: 3/8 NPT 8 GPM BRAND PC37C PILOT-OP CHECK VALVE

Note that I added restrictor ports, 1/32", to both top and tilt to slow them down. I made the restrictors on my lathe, and first pressed them, then TIG welded them into one fitting for each cylinder. I've also made restrictors by center drilling a 1/4-20 set screw, then drilling and tapping a fitting for it.

bumper

 

[Threepoint]

Boria, suggest you check with a dealer to see if the remote hydraulic valves on your Massey 1643 have a float function. Or maybe someone here knows the answer. As has been said above, many OEM remote hydraulic valves do not float at all. If yours don't, then you won't have float in a hydraulic toplink, regardless of whether it has or doesn't have a check valve. NB: This is different from the float of your 3pt lower link arms, which will still be there whether you have a manual or hydraulic toplink.

Many folks feel a check valve on the toplink cylinder is not necessary, others prefer to have it. I struggled with that issue recently, and as much as I wanted to use FitRite as my vendor, I ultimately concluded that I wanted a check valve, at least on the toplink. FitRite doesn't offer it at this time. It's not really a matter of safety for me, despite some claims, but rather to make sure that when I parked the tractor for a few days, the pitch on my box blade or other implements would be as I last adjusted it. I.e., no leak down, so long as the hydraulic valve itself didn't leak. If the hydraulic valve leaks, of course, then all bets are off, check valve or not.

 

[Fallon]

It's not really a matter of safety for me, despite some claims, but rather to make sure that when I parked the tractor for a few days, the pitch on my box blade or other implements would be as I last adjusted it. I.e., no leak down, so long as the hydraulic valve itself didn't leak. If the hydraulic valve leaks, of course, then all bets are off, check valve or not.

Actually that is wrong. A the pilot valve will prevent movement due to a leaky control valve. That & the safety aspect are the main reason they are used. They won't help for a leaky cylinder, but then not much will short or rebuilding or replacing the cylinder.

 

[Threepoint]

Actually that is wrong. A the pilot valve will prevent movement due to a leaky control valve. That & the safety aspect are the main reason they are used. They won't help for a leaky cylinder, but then not much will short or rebuilding or replacing the cylinder.

Yes, you're right. I thought more about it and just sat down to delete my last sentence and saw that you'd straightened it out. :thumbsup:

 

[jenkinsph]

but rather to make sure that when I parked the tractor for a few days, the pitch on my box blade or other implements would be as I last adjusted it.

This is the most unusual reason for having the check valves I have heard. I can't relate to the idea that the top link adjustment should remain fixed, in that case why have a hydraulic top link? I do a lot of grading work and use the top and side link adjustment all the time to get the right results. At least for me their is no fixed position, I can glance at the rod length showing and know if it is right for what I am doing, it becomes intuitive.

 

[Loadstar]

Only drawback is when it is off for maintenance and you have the old top link on.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

This is the most unusual reason for having the check valves I have heard. I can't relate to the idea that the top link adjustment should remain fixed, in that case why have a hydraulic top link? I do a lot of grading work and use the top and side link adjustment all the time to get the right results. At least for me their is no fixed position, I can glance at the rod length showing and know if it is right for what I am doing, it becomes intuitive.

Steve, I had a customer that had purchased a complete T&T set from me. After a few months he contacted me and wanted the check valves. I told him that I could not help him out at this time. I asked why? His answer was that after a week, sometimes 2 that when he went to get back on his tractor, the side link had moved. I asked him if the leak down affected his use at all and the answer was not at all, it was not even noticeable during use. He simply did not like getting on his tractor in the morning and having to readjust the link before he could go to work. So for him any movement over any period of time was unacceptable.

 

[Threepoint]

This is the most unusual reason for having the check valves I have heard. I can't relate to the idea that the top link adjustment should remain fixed, in that case why have a hydraulic top link? I do a lot of grading work and use the top and side link adjustment all the time to get the right results. At least for me their is no fixed position, I can glance at the rod length showing and know if it is right for what I am doing, it becomes intuitive.

Sure, there's no "fixed position" for me, either, but the benefit of the hydraulic top link should be that it can make pitch changes when the operator wants them, not when he doesn't. My NX4510 is a few months old, so slow leak-down in the hydraulic system shouldn't be an issue for a long time. But it is on a lot of older tractors, as on my 21 y/o B2150. So in my view a check valve is worth having on a hydraulic top link, especially where the remote hydraulic valves do not have float function, as many don't. The safety issue is another reason, but as I said, I don't consider it that important in my particular case.

 

[jenkinsph]

What ever floats your boat load guess. I suspect with a little more seat time you would get use to it. You learn to adjust on the fly.

 

[bumperm]

What ever floats your boat load guess. I suspect with a little more seat time you would get use to it. You learn to adjust on the fly.

Perhaps not what you intended, but that could be taken as a condescending remark. How would you know how much seat time another poster might have? And what level of experience they have (though I'm sure some of us probably learn slower than others, so seat time might not necessarily correlate directly to experience level)?

I'll admit I'm low time compared to many here, bought my first Kubota in '88 but it sold with the "ranch" in 2003. Didn't have float on the top and tilt and I didn't know about POCV. So I put up with constantly creeping down tilt when bush hogging and box blading - - a real PITA I might add, as it dropped about 1/2" in 15 minutes or so. That tractor was purchased new and TnT was added by the dealer.

My latest B3350 was purchased new last November. Got the optional rear hydraulics, though didn't use them until a few months ago when I added TnT. Tilt cylinder crept down about 1/4" an hour with the box on, maybe a bit more IIRC, within Kubota's spec in any case, though not within mine. Adding the POCV fixed it. Since I don't have tilt float, spending 50 or 60 bucks so I don't have to keep readjusting tilt when mowing or box blading, unless I specifically *want* tilt (or to change angle of attack on blade) is well worth it.

BTW, my boat floats, I'm pretty much used to it (though I still manage to learn something new now and then), and I can adjust on the fly - whilst on my tractor or in my aircraft - which is a lot faster, and arguably requires much more "adjust on the fly", and even more when landing, as it's a taildragger than naturally is predisposed to swapping ends.

bumper

 

[jenkinsph]

Perhaps not what you intended, but that could be taken as a condescending remark. How would you know how much seat time another poster might have? And what level of experience they have (though I'm sure some of us probably learn slower than others, so seat time might not necessarily correlate directly to experience level)?

I'll admit I'm low time compared to many here, bought my first Kubota in '88 but it sold with the "ranch" in 2003. Didn't have float on the top and tilt and I didn't know about POCV. So I put up with constantly creeping down tilt when bush hogging and box blading - - a real PITA I might add, as it dropped about 1/2" in 15 minutes or so. That tractor was purchased new and TnT was added by the dealer.

My latest B3350 was purchased new last November. Got the optional rear hydraulics, though didn't use them until a few months ago when I added TnT. Tilt cylinder crept down about 1/4" an hour with the box on, maybe a bit more IIRC, within Kubota's spec in any case, though not within mine. Adding the POCV fixed it. Since I don't have tilt float, spending 50 or 60 bucks so I don't have to keep readjusting tilt when mowing or box blading, unless I specifically *want* tilt (or to change angle of attack on blade) is well worth it.

BTW, my boat floats, I'm pretty much used to it (though I still manage to learn something new now and then), and I can adjust on the fly - whilst on my tractor or in my aircraft - which is a lot faster, and arguably requires much more "adjust on the fly", and even more when landing, as it's a taildragger than naturally is predisposed to swapping ends.

bumper

Most people seem to get a lot of seat time in their cars and trucks and don't seem to have a problem with what the steering wheel position is when they drive off, they correct on the fly and in most cases all is well. I consider a a tnt the same way, doesn't matter how it was set last week, real time is what matters to me. If the valves or cylinders leak too much I would fix that problem.

 

[boggen]

some issues with TNT

most folks only go for TOP link and 1 side link. but not "both side links" this may not be a big deal, but some side link hyd cylinders, may not allow enough up and down adjustment. to tilt implement a good amount on one side vs the other. and the need for 2 hyd cylinder side links are needed.

valves have been covered, and options for them by others so will not repeat.

the only issue i have for TNT and leak down. is when implement is raised, and i am roading... and 1" could mean having something scrape the pavement vs not.

=======
on the old allish chalmers 1950ish tractor with belly mower, 2 bottom plow, disc, sickle mower, some other stuff.... when i load up the rear. there is more leak down. instead of holding implement up for a few hours. it is literally minutes before it drops the implement. most of these cases for me it is the disc, or i am way over loading rear lift, with dragging a log or like. and to note it again i am well aware i am overloading the hydraulics. and i take it as acceptable to go to a dead stop, and then raise what ever i have back up again.

on other hand. if the belly mower, was constantly dropping down, or moved much more than 1/4" if that over an hour. then i would have a problem.

with above said....
putting in "piloted operated check valves" can be a good thing and/or a bad thing... if they are combined into the actual valve itself. and correct passages, springs, reliefs, etc.. put in place. so the "relief valves" work like they should. if you place a piloted operated check valve after the relief valves (between reliefs and hyd cylinder). then you are asking for hoses to exploded or hoses to vacuum down and crinkle up on you. relief valves are there to protect the equipment by setting them to a given Pressure for when they start to open up.

=======
are piloted operated check valves a nice thing to have? yes, but it depends on how they are installed. and if me, i would rather have them included directly in the valve. that or have a feed back sensor. were computer auto adjusts things on the go.

the only saftey aspects i can really see for a piloted operated check valves. are man lifts / bucket boom trucks, scissor lifts,cranes... other words any time ya raising an actual person off the ground via tractor or machine and not wanting something to come crashing down. having a piloted operated check valve between valves and hyd cylinder could be a big safety thing. but all these things are designed for lifting stuff up, and keep it from crashing down. they are not geared for "float like options" or "detent", or return to position. we are in completely different school of doings and usage.

though with last paragraph, with TNT's not having any sort of "feed back sensor" to maintain hyd cylinder position... i can see why some folks would want a piloted operated check valve. more so with basic cheap valve, non-float type. a piloted operated check valve. would be a cheap easy solution and not negatively effect anything.

 

[britbike2001]

Good point on roading as I do a lot of that, and at speed too. Although my hydraulics do not sag, I'm always afraid of a sudden failure, so when transporting anything, I raise the implement as high as I can, run a chain from it to part of the upper link framework and make sure the load is mechanically suspended, not just hydraulically suspended.

Nothing like having a two thousand pound tiller hid the road surface when in traffic.

 

[jenkinsph]

I can see where laving check valves can help in some cases such as mowing. I would also add that the jobs that require floating the top link are few and far between.

Buy whatever makes you happy. If I offended anyone I am sorry but I call it as I see it. I am signing off TBN for good. Over the years I just see too many armchair debates and recognize that I have personally spent too much of my time here without enough return on the time spent. I fully acknowledge how little difference it makes whether I am here or not. You guys have fun with it, life goes on.

 

[Ford850]

I recently purchased top and tilt from Brian at Fit Rite. First I'll say he was great to work with. After I made a mistake on a measurement, he took care of everything at no cost, and turned it around in a day. You don't find businesses like that very often. I've read enough good things on here about Brian, and that helped me choose Fit Rite.
I'm still learning how to use the new cylinders, but I like them so far. The only thing I can say about a drawback on the top, is that you have to have the tractor running to adjust the length. No big deal, but it was a change to how I hook things up sometimes. It might not be fair to consider it a drawback, but it was something I didn't think about until I used them the first time.

Also, my tractor valves must be poor quality from Case IH. If I am bush hogging, my side link drops over an inch an hour. That does cause issues if I don't notice right away and it starts to drag on one side. The same is true when disking, tilling, blading, or plowing. I'm fairly certain it's a valve issue, as top link also sags over a short time. And the same goes for my FEL, dropping up to a foot an hour. The valves all came installed when I bought the Case IH new, and the remote hydraulics have hardly been used at all up to this point. I'm not sure if anything can be done to improve them.

 

[TripleR]

I can see where laving check valves can help in some cases such as mowing. I would also add that the jobs that require floating the top link are few and far between.

Buy whatever makes you happy. If I offended anyone I am sorry but I call it as I see it. I am signing off TBN for good. Over the years I just see too many armchair debates and recognize that I have personally spent too much of my time here without enough return on the time spent. I fully acknowledge how little difference it makes whether I am here or not. You guys have fun with it, life goes on.

I hate to see you go, but know this is not a new issue, you will be missed.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I recently purchased top and tilt from Brian at Fit Rite. First I'll say he was great to work with. After I made a mistake on a measurement, he took care of everything at no cost, and turned it around in a day. You don't find businesses like that very often. I've read enough good things on here about Brian, and that helped me choose Fit Rite.
I'm still learning how to use the new cylinders, but I like them so far. The only thing I can say about a drawback on the top, is that you have to have the tractor running to adjust the length. No big deal, but it was a change to how I hook things up sometimes. It might not be fair to consider it a drawback, but it was something I didn't think about until I used them the first time.

Also, my tractor valves must be poor quality from Case IH. If I am bush hogging, my side link drops over an inch an hour. That does cause issues if I don't notice right away and it starts to drag on one side. The same is true when disking, tilling, blading, or plowing. I'm fairly certain it's a valve issue, as top link also sags over a short time. And the same goes for my FEL, dropping up to a foot an hour. The valves all came installed when I bought the Case IH new, and the remote hydraulics have hardly been used at all up to this point. I'm not sure if anything can be done to improve them.

First thing to do so that you don't have to guess if the cylinders or the valves are the problem is to have the implement on the ground, set the hydraulics how you want them. Then un plug the QDs, mark or measure the cylinder rods so that you will know if and how much the rods extend under a load. Raise the hitch so that the implement is in the air. Watch for 10 or 15 minutes. If the rod extends more than 1/16"- 3/32" in that time frame then the cylinder needs to be looked at. This is not to say that your valves don't have a problem also, but it lets you know if the cylinders are bad and it gives you a place to start at when trouble shooting. With no to little movement, then the cylinders are fine and the problem is with the control valves.

In my experience with the product that I sell, almost always the cylinders are fine and the leakage is from the control valves. How you choose to deal with that is for you to decide.