Buying Advice Overwhelmed by options

[grm61]

The main reason I am suggesting a newer gas tractor with good parts availability, is for the long term. I expect the bottom to fall out of the diesel engine market within the next several years. Because the Otto cycle works even better on NG than PG, a gas engine is easily converted. The supply of NG is almost unlimited in Canada and the US. That is not so with oil, which the diesel requires. If this guy wants to get his money back out of his tractor 20 or more years down the road, I definitely think gas is the way to go. The way diesel prices have gone over the last 10 years, what do you think they will be then? Compare the trend in NG. It is going to be very difficult to sell a diesel if it costs that much more to run. That fuel served us well, but it has almost run its course in my opinion. Yes he may get better dependability today out of a new diesel. He could also buy a half a dozen old gas tractors for the same money and keep his whole family working if he wanted to. If Deere and Kubota engineers are not working on NG designs right now then I am afraid they will be in for a rude awakening fairly soon. Maybe they are to busy working on the various diesel "Tier" upgrades to look that far into the future.

What is a newer gas tractor? can you give an example?

 

[akroeze]

So here are two quotes I received from a Kubota dealer. Interestingly, this was the only dealer so far which I have received a fully itemized written estimate. Everyone else has just written a price in their brochure.

L3301 HST
R4 Front
R4 Rear
Rear work light
Block heater
Loaded rear tires
LA525 loader
66" Squareback bucket
Skid steer coupler
TOTAL: $28,250.00 CDN (all in with taxes/freight/etc)

L3901 HST
R4 Front
R4 Rear
Rear work light
Block heater
Loaded rear tires
LA525 loader
66" Squareback bucket
Skid steer coupler
TOTAL: $30,510.00 CDN (all in with taxes/freight/etc)

Thoughts on those prices?

 

[wolc123]

I gave a couple examples of what I would consider a newer model gas tractors in my earlier post on this thread. You can look it up.

 

[varmint]

My un-informed opinion about NG engines vs. diesels would be to look at European autos... more and more diesels, and even here in the US, the interest is growing. I thought that there are issues with fuel storage with NG that complicate its widespread use?

 

[wolc123]

That's not surprising as the Europeans are quite lacking in NG compared to on this side of the pond.

 

[GManBart]

I gave a couple examples of what I would consider a newer model gas tractors in my earlier post on this thread. You can look it up.

The only example you gave was a Ford 2000/3000....nothing else.

At best, that means you're recommending a 39 year old machine to someone not mechanically inclined....bad idea. How is he supposed to even know which ones are in good shape or not?

He never said he had to get his money out of the machine in ant timeframe, or any if the other stuff you're making assumptions about

 

[GManBart]

That's not surprising as the Europeans are quite lacking in NG compared to on this side of the pond.

?

The world's largest gas reserves are in Russia and Iran.

 

[grm61]

I gave a couple examples of what I would consider a newer model gas tractors in my earlier post on this thread. You can look it up.

Personally, I would skip a step, and consider an older, gas tractor such as a Ford 2000 or 3000. For about $4000 today in Canada, these can be converted to Natural Gas fuel which would then also satisfy all of your "environmental" concerns 10 fold over a "tier-4" diesel. .

I looked up your post and you called them older gas tractors, so that is where the confusion is... So again I ask,who makes this newer gas tractor that you are touting?

 

[hawkeye08]

Be careful of trying to find one tractor to do it all... you may have to rent some equipment to do things only done once. This allows you to focus on the things you will do with your tractor.

 

[akroeze]

Massey guy quoted me $29,900cdn plus tax for a 2013 model 1643 (pre tier 4) with fel, ssqa, loaded rears, hst, free delivery, free first maintenance/oil change.

 

[grm61]

Massey guy quoted me $29,900cdn plus tax for a 2013 model 1643 (pre tier 4) with fel, ssqa, loaded rears, hst, free delivery, free first maintenance/oil change.

You would need to be looking at the MF1648 to get anywhere near the loader specs of the DK 40

 

[akroeze]

So I found a 2009 Kioti DK35SE with FEL, synchronized transmission, and about 2000 hours (give or take) for $14,500 from one dealer... but another Kioti dealer is telling me that he never liked the DK35 because it is underpowered for the size of frame. He is suggesting I go with a CK35 with hydrostat. I'm concerned the CK line may not be heavy enough for plowing/snow removal but he assures me it is.

So many considerations.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

So I found a 2009 Kioti DK35SE with FEL, synchronized transmission, and about 2000 hours (give or take) for $14,500 from one dealer... but another Kioti dealer is telling me that he never liked the DK35 because it is underpowered for the size of frame. He is suggesting I go with a CK35 with hydrostat. I'm concerned the CK line may not be heavy enough for plowing/snow removal but he assures me it is.

So many considerations.

The DK35 has 38hp. The CK35 has 34hp. You decide, but I think that that someone was just trying to make a sale with what they had, or should I say because of what they don't have.


Just my :2cents:

 

[grm61]

So I found a 2009 Kioti DK35SE with FEL, synchronized transmission, and about 2000 hours (give or take) for $14,500 from one dealer... but another Kioti dealer is telling me that he never liked the DK35 because it is underpowered for the size of frame. He is suggesting I go with a CK35 with hydrostat. I'm concerned the CK line may not be heavy enough for plowing/snow removal but he assures me it is.

So many considerations.

I think that is a bit high for 2k hour machine.

So you keep going back to the 35 horse frame size...Is that what you want??

 

[akroeze]

I think that is a bit high for 2k hour machine.

So you keep going back to the 35 horse frame size...Is that what you want??

Not necessarily, that is just what I keep coming across in the "used but not overly old" category.

I'm keeping my hopes up for a DK40/45 to be honest.

 

[akroeze]

Home // BCS America

Starting to wonder if one of these may be a better solution to my planned use situation lol

 

[wolc123]

Bart, I always considered Russia a little more Asian than European, and Iran to be part of the middle east. I may be wrong on both counts. I trust you are certain, sorry. I don't think all the countries in Western Europe combined have as much NG as either the US or Canada. Are Russia and Iran Part of the European Federation, and do they use the Euro as Currency?

61, I think they started making gas tractors around 1900 and the models I am talking about (Ford 2000, 3000) are about 1975's. There are tons of them out there and it is not hard to locate one in very good condition. That would put them almost twice as close to "new" as "old" as far as I am concerned. They are also plentiful, and with a little patience and a little know-how, one in excellent condition is rather easy to locate. Also, parts availability will usually equal or exceed a new model. I can not think of any other "newer" gas tractor that I would recommend. There is one much "older" one thqt I would however. That would be the 1951 or 52 Ford 8n. When I said "older" in the other post, what I meant was : "not new" . I am very sorry to have confused you or anyone else. I am confused myself now to have learned from Bart that Iran is part of Europe. One sure can learn new stuff on this site.

Having owned and/or operated and maintained many new diesels, newer gas, and old gas tractors, I can say without a doubt that the newer gas ones are the easiest to work on and maintain. That may be a concern to the novice operator. Maintenance these days is just an afterthought to designers. Their goal is just to use their 3d-CAD models to squeeze as many parts and features as they can into as small of space as possible with little or no thought to ever changing any of them parts.

 

[cmore]

I think u also need to add MF 2605 to your short list. Unless u don't have a reliable dealer close. I have a 39 acre place and its more than enough tractor for what I do, and its easy on fuel.

 

[GManBart]

Bart, I always considered Russia a little more Asian than European, and Iran to be part of the middle east. I may be wrong on both counts. I trust you are certain, sorry. I don't think all the countries in Western Europe combined have as much NG as either the US or Canada. Are Russia and Iran Part of the European Federation, and do they use the Euro as Currency?

61, I think they started making gas tractors around 1900 and the models I am talking about (Ford 2000, 3000) are about 1975's. There are tons of them out there and it is not hard to locate one in very good condition. That would put them almost twice as close to "new" as "old" as far as I am concerned. They are also plentiful, and with a little patience and a little know-how, one in excellent condition is rather easy to locate. Also, parts availability will usually equal or exceed a new model. I can not think of any other "newer" gas tractor that I would recommend. There is one much "older" one thqt I would however. That would be the 1951 or 52 Ford 8n. When I said "older" in the other post, what I meant was : "not new" . I am very sorry to have confused you or anyone else. I am confused myself now to have learned from Bart that Iran is part of Europe. One sure can learn new stuff on this site.

Having owned and/or operated and maintained many new diesels, newer gas, and old gas tractors, I can say without a doubt that the newer gas ones are the easiest to work on and maintain. That may be a concern to the novice operator. Maintenance these days is just an afterthought to designers. Their goal is just to use their 3d-CAD models to squeeze as many parts and features as they can into as small of space as possible with little or no thought to ever changing any of them parts.

Russia is definitely in Europe. I never said Iran was in Europe...Iran is technically Western Asia, but borders three European countries. I simply said the world's largest reserves are in Russia, and Iran....nothing on this side of the pond is remotely close.

The U.S. has proven NG reserves of 9.46T cubic meters. Russia has 48.7T and Iran has 33.6T. Canada has 1.75T.

The whole world has 187T identified, and Russia, and Iran have darned near half....throw in Iran's neighbor Turkmenistan, and you are at half. The U.S. and Canada have about 1/18th of the known world supply...far fom the claim you're making..

You're still recommending a 40+ year old machine and suggesting that with a little know-how the OP can find a good one, but he already said he doesn't have that know-how. An 8N is a nice little tractor, but a royal pain to mow ith not having live hydraulics, or a live PTO...been there, done that, and it's not what a newbie needs to make his life easier. Further, anything without a ROPS isn't as safe for someone new to tractors, and equipment in general.

If you really think new machines are built with little thought for servicing them, you must not have looked at anything new recently. They have all sorts of things that make life easier....having all the service items on one side, filters that are easier to access, fuel systems that are easier to bleed, etc, etc. having owned tractors made from 1947 to 2012, there's no question which was easiest to work on....the newest one.

 

[wolc123]

I had no idea there was that much proven reserves of NG across the globe. That sounds like almost 2000 years supply Somewhere I had heard that the puny little US reserve alone was good for over 100 years (I assume, at our current rate of consumption). Some may think we are doing well for our decendants, a few centuries down the road, by paying thru the nose now to burn petroleum oil. I bet they would have been even more thankful if we left them some of that. I know for sure they would be happier with the air/atmosphere that would result from far-cleaner burning NG usage. Maybe, as the last drop is burnt, at a cost per gallon that I cant even imagine, they will start building us some new NG tractors. Just before they do, the value of diesel powered tractors will free fall as they can not be converted to run on NG as a gas engine can. I guess it all depends if this guy is looking 4-5 years down the road, or a little longer. At least steel/iron scrap prices should be higher then, so the diesel-powered machines will never become completely worthless. All I know is, as soon as I am able to scrape together an extra couple of grand, I am going to take my oldest tractor (1941 AC model C) and convert it to NG. That one is also the easiest to service of all I own, with the newest being a JD 2004 diesel (took over an hour to change the starter on that one due to some wrench clearance issues, but oil / filter change times are nearly identical). The old crank handle for the C has never needed any service.

I agree that some control was lost in the service department after WW2. You have to remove the fuel line to get the oil filter changed on my 8N and that is a PIA. Eventually they got those things straightened away however and the oil changes on the Ford 2000 / 3000 / 4000 / 5000 are just as easy as the later model Deere's.

Maybe that fella can get some advice here on what to look for in a newer model gas tractor, to determine condition. That is not an especially difficult task. A middle-school education will usually suffice. Better yet, find some old, retired, farmer or tractor hobbiest to take along (there are a ton of them out there).

Given your vast knowledge of proven reserves, etc. Would you be able to take a stab at what the US reserves of oil are, and the world reserves? How long would that last at current rate of consumption, and how long if adjusted for population / usage growth? If it is more than 200 or so years, then why is diesel fuel so expensive today?