Electrical Wiring Question

[CobyRupert]

There is no correct way to rewire this circuit for a hot and a switch wire. NEC 250.119 says the green will be ground not anything else.
A breaker trips because of overload not because the fault current goes back to its source.
And those ugly bubble covers are made for the use of a cord that is never unplugged and are in wet areas (outdoor outlet covers are for the occasional use of that outlet).

All true. But there is no "overload" for the breaker to trip on if the fault current has a high resistance path (earth and not a low resistence ground wire) to get back to the source (transformer) and limits the fault current to less than the breaker's rating. Instead, every metal thing connected to the local "ground" (e.g. boxes, switches, fixtures, etc..) gets it's voltage raised waiting for someone to touch it. :lightningbolt:

 

[grsthegreat]

you CANNOT simply add a ground rod and expect a working ground safety. you HAVE to have a return path to the breaker...thats what the green wire provides.

you may be overthinking this. just get a weatherproof intermatic timer and place it at the wall. this would turn lights on and off...also you can then set an off time and not let them blaze all night long.

and as far as using metal conduit.....good luck with putting that underground. in a few years youd have rusted mush. Metal conduit is allowed to be used as a ground path ABOVE ground and within weatherproof structure. Rigid threaded pipe is ok outdoors. No one i know ever uses rigid pipes underground...heck even when i wire service stations i use PVC pipe up till the time it leaves the ground. Only then is rigid used (above ground)

 

[MNBobcat]

Its all done. I buried a red wire under the landscaping fabric and rock right along the wall. Not the preferred way of doing it but its the only choice I had. So now the outlet is hot all the time. I used a remote outlet from Menards to switch the lights on and off. The way its wired one remote outlet controls the whole string.

 

[grsthegreat]

Its all done. I buried a red wire under the landscaping fabric and rock right along the wall. Not the preferred way of doing it but its the only choice I had. So now the outlet is hot all the time. I used a remote outlet from Menards to switch the lights on and off. The way its wired one remote outlet controls the whole string.

is it in conduit? or just a buried thhn wire?

 

[MNBobcat]

is it in conduit? or just a buried thhn wire?

Just a buried thhn. Its in a place where nobody will ever be digging. Its up tight against a block wall and buried under rock. I may have to replace it at some point if it deteriorates due to the weather but I'll deal with that later if it happens. Its on a ground fault.

Not my usual or preferred way of doing something like this but sometimes you have to adapt to the situation and just do the best you can.

 

[aczlan]

At least put it in some conduit. All it will take is one rock or mouse to chew a hole through it and you will have a big problem.

Aaron Z

 

[MNBobcat]

At least put it in some conduit. All it will take is one rock or mouse to chew a hole through it and you will have a big problem.

Aaron Z

As I mentioned, if there are problems I'll deal with it later. There is no way to run conduit through an 1/8 " crack in stone.

 

[kcflhrc]

Just another FYI on this. Per code an outside GFCI or any GFCI outlet for that matter doesn't have to be grounded. They will trip using the neutral return? Another note, the color of the wire doesn't mean anything other than color. Electricians all the time use phase tape to denote what the wire actually is if they are out of a particular color of wire. I really think you should take a hard look at this and understand that running an unprotected hot wire just laying under landscape fabric has disaster written all over it. I stick to my original response and think you should use the green wire for the hot all the time at the outlet and run your ground wire exposed if need be.

 

[MNBobcat]

Hi kcflhrc

I frequently color code wires using phase tape. When I buy thhn I don't buy all the different colors because you end up with so much you don't use. So I just color code them with the tape.

I can't run the ground exposed. There are 5 lights along the route and I'd have had to run a new ground to each light and each light is on top of a block pillar that is very, very difficult to fish wire into because it would have to come under the base block which is buried in the ground and then up the center of the base block inside the pillar.

This way I only had to run one wire. The way I did it was the only way that I think it could have been done given I messed up and didn't catch it until it was too late.

Anyway...you guys can keep chatting but thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts.

 

[GregbkH]

What you did is potentially dangerous and irresponsible. I hope you don't have kids that might chase a ball near that burried hot wire.

Conduit and boxes are supposed to be accessable so the wiring can be worked on or modified. You should do yourself and your family a favor and hire and electrician to keep everyone safe. You clearly do not know what you are doing.

 

[aczlan]

Hi kcflhrc

I frequently color code wires using phase tape. When I buy thhn I don't buy all the different colors because you end up with so much you don't use. So I just color code them with the tape.

I can't run the ground exposed. There are 5 lights along the route and I'd have had to run a new ground to each light and each light is on top of a block pillar that is very, very difficult to fish wire into because it would have to come under the base block which is buried in the ground and then up the center of the base block inside the pillar.

This way I only had to run one wire. The way I did it was the only way that I think it could have been done given I messed up and didn't catch it until it was too late.

Anyway...you guys can keep chatting but thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts.

Actually, thinking about it, you could probbaly put the lights on a GFCI, then the ground wouldn't be needed (GFCI makes sure that the current going out matches the current going back in and shuts off if there is any mismatch).

Aaron Z

 

[teejk]

There is no correct way to rewire this circuit for a hot and a switch wire. NEC 250.119 says the green will be ground not anything else.
A breaker trips because of overload not because the fault current goes back to its source.
And those ugly bubble covers are made for the use of a cord that is never unplugged and are in wet areas (outdoor outlet covers are for the occasional use of that outlet).

I can give you the phone number of our local building inspector on those bubble covers! We built a few years ago and have 5 outdoor outlets all for occasional use. All are GFCI protected. All are surface mounted. The "snap covers" were a "no-no" on 3 of them and I had to install the "bubbles" (so 2" surface box plus 3+" bubble = UGLY). Two outlets got a pass because they are on a wall covered by a porch roof at some magical acceptable angle where I guess the chance of wind driven rain would not be major issue.

 

[JPRambo]

I agree but the local jurisdiction having authority is protecting all because of a few who would plug in a cord and use it to put power into the shed and never unplug it rain, shine use it, or not.

 

[grsthegreat]

holy crap. so you have a HOT wire pulling 120 volts and ungrounded. now if someone were to crack thru the insulation theres no path back to the breaker to trip it. it just keeps pouring 20 amps thru whatever broke it.

buddy, its your place, but this is among the dumbest things ive seen or heard of for some time. And let me tell you i see all sorts of farmer wired stuff over the past 30 years.

 

[MNBobcat]

holy crap. so you have a HOT wire pulling 120 volts and ungrounded. now if someone were to crack thru the insulation theres no path back to the breaker to trip it. it just keeps pouring 20 amps thru whatever broke it.

buddy, its your place, but this is among the dumbest things ive seen or heard of for some time. And let me tell you i see all sorts of farmer wired stuff over the past 30 years.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Go back and read the thread from the beginning. Sheesh.

 

[grsthegreat]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Go back and read the thread from the beginning. Sheesh.

hehe..no idea. how about 30 years as an electrical contractor. ive read the thread. i hope some lawyer doesnt find this post when your being sued for negligence after some kid kills themself.

what you did goes against so many codes i couldnt even begin to count.
1. multiple wires feeding thru parallel paths
2. depth of burial for wires
3. non grounded wire paths
4. unsheilded conductors
5. by separating that HOT wire and not running it continuously with a ground, you've introduced a potentially lethal mix.

why bother continuing. what you did is extremely dangerous. you could have solved it properly and safely with a simple timer.

 

[MNBobcat]

hehe..no idea. how about 30 years as an electrical contractor. ive read the thread. i hope some lawyer doesnt find this post when your being sued for negligence after some kid kills themself.

what you did goes against so many codes i couldnt even begin to count.
1. multiple wires feeding thru parallel paths
2. depth of burial for wires
3. non grounded wire paths
4. unsheilded conductors
5. by separating that HOT wire and not running it continuously with a ground, you've introduced a potentially lethal mix.

why bother continuing. what you did is extremely dangerous. you could have solved it properly and safely with a simple timer.

No, a timer wouldn't have solved anything. First, we want control not a timer. Second, it would have required one timer installed INSIDE of each pillar or 5 timers.

The wiring is on a ground fault breaker. Someone standing barefoot on top of the rocks digging wouldn't get electrocuted if they cut the wire even without a ground fault protecting it. It would take so many fluke things to come together to create a circuit that the odds of that happening are ridiculously low.

 

[ultrarunner]

We lock the cabin every winter and the electric usage is null.

One winter I noticed considerable usage and thought someone must have moved in or steeling power.

When I checked... nothing was left on... went over to the meter and it was turning... didn't have a clue as to why.

I walk over to the shed and heard a crackling sound... turned out a underground Hot from dating from 1961 was leaking current and sizzling... not enough to trip the two 30 amp breakers feeding the shed sub panel.

My best guess is a very big limb that fell during a storm pierced the sandy soil 20" and damaged the insulation just enough...

 

[GregbkH]

No, a timer wouldn't have solved anything. First, we want control not a timer. Second, it would have required one timer installed INSIDE of each pillar or 5 timers.

The wiring is on a ground fault breaker. Someone standing barefoot on top of the rocks digging wouldn't get electrocuted if they cut the wire even without a ground fault protecting it. It would take so many fluke things to come together to create a circuit that the odds of that happening are ridiculously low.

For informational purposes I am a state licensed master electrician.

Your above statement is false. Your installation is horribly wrong and potentially dangerous. Not worth the risk no matter what the odds are.

 

[MNBobcat]

First you said this which is wrong

you have a HOT wire pulling 120 volts and ungrounded. now if someone were to crack thru the insulation theres no path back to the breaker to trip it. it just keeps pouring 20 amps thru whatever broke it.

That circuit has a neutral and a ground going to the outlet and all the way back to the panel. I can see your point if the thought is if you cut the wire you would hit the ground or neutral too and because they aren't right next to this hot it would be a problem. But its on a ground fault breaker and that protects even old circuits which only had a neutral and a hot and no ground wire at all. So it definitely protects this circuit which has a proper neutral and ground.

For informational purposes I am a state licensed master electrician.

Your above statement is false. Your installation is horribly wrong and potentially dangerous. Not worth the risk no matter what the odds are.

You're entitled to your opinion but that's all it is is an opinion and credentials don't carry any weight with me because common sense will win every time.

First, the person would have to hit the wire with something conductive -- and most tools used in dirt either have wooden or fiberglass handles. Second, they would have to be grounded and most people don't walk on rocks in bare feet nor do they kneel on rocks in shorts and rocks aren't conductive unless in a pool of water which doesn't happen on sand on high ground. Third, the ground fault would detect an imbalance in the circuit and would trip in about one thirtieth of a second and would protect the individual. Fourth, the wire is up against a block wall and even digging with a shovel it would be tough to hit it because the block isn't flat making it tough to dig tight against the block.

So you can argue the minutia but the reality is the wire is fine where it is. Not my preferred way of doing it but its fine.

The reality is this will never be a problem to anyone. Now if you can refute the above with some facts I'll consider them but so far you haven't said anything that would concern me.