Electrical Wiring Question

[MNBobcat]

Hi Guys,

I'm installing 5 outdoor lights on the top of a block wall. I also have a power outlet on the wall that I would like to keep hot all the time.

I screwed up.

When I was running the electrical wires I ran a black, white and green. These are buried in conduit.

I should have also run a red to carry power to that outlet. I knew better but just hadn't thought it through at the time. If I switch the black, that outlet will only be hot when the lights are on.

So...I got to thinking perhaps I could keep the black hot all the time and put some kind of outdoor remote receiver box at each light that would switch each light on or off. No luck finding anything yet.

So...then I thought I could use the green wire as a hot wire for the outlet. The lights only really need a black and white. But then I wouldn't have a ground for that outlet and I'm not going to have an outlet with no ground. I don't think I can drive a ground rod into the ground and ground the outlet that way. I'm pretty sure I need to have the ground run back to the panel.

There is really no way to run another wire for that hot lead for the outlet.

Anyone have any ideas or know of a remote for the hot lead on each light?

Thanks.

 

[outinthetalgrass]

First, you can buy ceiling fan remotes for each of the lights to switch them on/off with a remote, but would have to be in a weatherproof box.

But my question is, if the wires are in conduit as you stated, how small a conduit do you have, that you couldn't pull one or all of the wires out, and them pull them back in with a red? I find wiring in conduit is easier, than wires that are stapled inside a wall. Unless the conduit every undersized, I can usually find places (corners or pull boxes) to get into the circuit and add a wire to it.

 

[SPIKER]

I like the remote ideas, you can also put in Light Sensors (but would leave the lights on all the time when dark) other option is to install switched light fixtures (requires you to go out at night in snow storm to turn them on or off.)

DON NOT USE THE GREEN! that is ground & required by pretty much every code going. The Outlet SHOULD be on a GFI breaker or a GFI outlet based one.

MIGHT be able to pull out the green with a NEW GREEN and RED attached to the old green wire, in either case those could be one size smaller wires, using high temp wires silicone jacket or THHN also gets smaller wire diameter in same size rating.


last idea is to use Photo Eyes and a Reflector shooting back at the window or doorway, move the reflector and photo eye turns ON the lights, put it back and the lights go out.

Mark

 

[B7510HSD]

Why not put a photo eye after the plug before the lights that will turn them on and off at day and night???

 

[aczlan]

Where is the outlet in relation to the rest of lights (can you post a picture or a diagram showing what order they are in?)?
There are a couple of ways to do this, but we need to know how they are arranged.

Thanks

Aaron Z

 

[teejk]

How far from your switch to your wall? Can you snake a single strand of wire through your existing conduit? If not far and snaking is a problem, sometimes it's easier to use the existing wire to pull a new wire set through. And just a possibility...is your conduit EMT or thick wall steel? If so you might be able to "steal" the green wire since I think steel conduit and boxes can serve as a proper ground.

 

[MNBobcat]

Hi Guys,

I appreciate the help. I couldn't pull another thhn through the conduit because of all of the bends. Even access to the end of the conduit is hard to get to.

I ended up burying a wire under the landscape fabric and rock next to the edge of the wall. I know...but its all I could do.

So now what I'll do at the start of the run is install a single remote that will switch on all 5 lights when the button is pushed. I found a remote at Menards for around $10. The new wire will feed hot to the outlet which will not be switched and will be on all the time.

Its possible that the remote could go bad in the years to come but I'm not going to glue the pier cap to the column so its just a matter of removing the cap and replacing the remote if it goes bad. The center of the column is hollow with plenty of room.

I usually don't make these kinds of mistakes. But I usually do all my own work and in this case it was one of the first times I hired out some work. A crew built the wall and they were moving fast and I ended up being super rushed to get that wire in the ground. Otherwise, I don't think I'd have messed up. Oh well... At least I found a work-around that will be okay. I was planning some kind of remote anyway because getting into the house where i could get to a location for installing a new switch would have also been tough. We have pavers on the ground outside and everything on the walls is brick/concrete.

 

[mrmikey]

Something like this would have been easier http://tinyurl.com/kpdk8q2 ......Mike

 

[aczlan]

Hopefully its burial rated wire, or in conduit...

If you just need dusk to dawn lights, one of these in each light will do the trick ($25 for 5 lights): Thomas & Betts HS300D Dusk to Dawn Light Socket -White - Photo Cells For Outdoor Lights - Amazon.com
If you wanted to switch the lights on and off at will the X10 "Socket Rockets" will do the trick. I can explain more if you wanted to go that route.

Aaron Z

 

[CobyRupert]

If steel conduit or EMT, I like the conduit as a ground idea.

 

[MNBobcat]

Something like this would have been easier http://tinyurl.com/kpdk8q2 ......Mike

I would have needed 5 of them if I hadn't run a new wire. Now I can get by with just 1.

 

[MNBobcat]

If steel conduit or EMT, I like the conduit as a ground idea.

That was a good idea but I used gray pvc. Still a good idea though should I or someone else run into a problem down the road and had used metal conduit.

 

[kcflhrc]

Just remember, ground is ground the world around. Burying a hot wire without any kind of protection is a really, really, bad idea. You would have been better off using your green wire for hot at the outlet all the time then drive a ground rod for the ground on the outlet. The lights should be grounded also if metallic. Color of wire is unimportant if identified correctly with phase tape.

 

[SPIKER]

Just remember, ground is ground the world around. ...

I think the quote should be "Ground is NOT Ground the world around," Design News - Sherlock Ohms - Ground Is Not Ground the World Around

Reason being if you are holding a wire that is grounded at one end and you are holding the other end & standing on the ground any induced voltage will turn into current when it flows thru YOU on one end and into the ground on the other end. The potential from point to point, earth material/moisture content ALL make a difference how well current can be conducted.

Another example is drive a Ground Rod into wet clay/marsh and 2nd into a dry rocky/sandy hill & apply voltage to end of the wires attached to them. A LOT of current flows into the wet clay/marsh and very little into the dry rock/sand, which shows ground is not ground the world around.

I have seen these issues in my past on multiple cases, missing, dry, loop faults in ground rods

Mark

 

[CobyRupert]

Just remember, ground is ground the world around. Burying a hot wire without any kind of protection is a really, really, bad idea. You would have been better off using your green wire for hot at the outlet all the time then drive a ground rod for the ground on the outlet. The lights should be grounded also if metallic. Color of wire is unimportant if identified correctly with phase tape.

I don't agree with this:
1. How does running a green wire with the single hot provide protection? If the insulation on the hot wire fails, how would the short circuit current get into the INSULATED green wire you are suggesting?
2. How does a ground rod at the outlet get fault current back to its source ( the neutral of the utility transformer) without relying on the earth as a conductor? Which is not something you should rely on.

 

[kcflhrc]

He said he ran a black, white and green. I would much rather have used the green for the unswitched hot he needed for the outlet and ran the ground under the landscape fabric instead of a hot. What if his wife is digging on her knees planting a flower and she hits that hot wire with her hand held digger? Not a good thing. He would have also had to install a GFCI outlet outside in a weatherproof housing.

 

[CobyRupert]

Ok, ok, point taken.
But it's bad options all around. If wife cuts ground wire when she's on her knees, she won't get a shock then and nobody will know, but later when the outlet goes bad and the breaker doesn't trip because there's no ground, yer in the same boat.
But my scenario has more "maybes" than yours , so you win.
How about a wireless switch downstream of the outlet for the fixtures, keep it 2 wire & gnd?

85v~250V 110V 220V 230V 4CH RF Wireless Remote Control Relay Switch Security System Garage Doors, Rolling Gate Electric Doors-in Remote Controls from Electronics on Aliexpress.com

 

[teejk]

If steel conduit or EMT, I like the conduit as a ground idea.

I'm not a "sparky" so I can't claim that it would work in an outdoor environment but I did that when I wired my shop. All components have to be metal and all switches/outlets/fixtures have to be grounded to the metal box via a pigtail/green screw (Menards sells them in a bulk pack)...funny in that I always used Romex with ground and never noticed that threaded hump on the back of a metal box until I went the EMT route. It let me sneak one more wire into the 3/4" emt since I didn't need to run a dedicated ground wire. I think the NEC is due for an update soon and curious to see whether this will change. My biggest concern would be outdoor stuff. While I swear at the current code requirements (in particular those ugly plastic "bubble covers" in lieu of the old spring loaded plates with waterproof gaskets), I guess better safe than sorry in some cases.

 

[nc redneck]

Any chance you could deal with a light switch at outlet location ? Also 5 lights could be a lot for a 15 or 20 amp circuit depending on type and amperage draw. I would not use the ground. You may want to sell the place one day. Remote or photo eye may be your best option.

 

[JPRambo]

There is no correct way to rewire this circuit for a hot and a switch wire. NEC 250.119 says the green will be ground not anything else.
A breaker trips because of overload not because the fault current goes back to its source.
And those ugly bubble covers are made for the use of a cord that is never unplugged and are in wet areas (outdoor outlet covers are for the occasional use of that outlet).