Hill Climbing Primer

[Egon]

Egon's request for "diagrams" had me doodling on a bit of scrap paper.

IF one can get over that silly notion that the tractor front end is some how lifted by the pinion gear climbing the ring, a simple vector diagram allows the LOAD to pull on a stationary tractor with equivalent results to the opposite. In fact, the tractor engine need not even be running, and the transmission can be in neutral. The BRAKES must be set however (or the axle shafts welded to the housings ;-)

In such a diagram, The ONLY vector opposing the "pull" from the dynamic load is AT THE TIRE CONTACT with the ground, Opposite and equal to the horizontal component of the "load" vector, regardless of the height or direction of the load vector. Also, infinite tire traction is assumed (right up to the moment when the load lifts the rear wheels off the ground, should that condition exist.)

Something to consider

With the tractor in gear, clutch out and motor running the pinion gear is turning!

 

[Marauderer]

Square1, have you been able to move any logs? and how did you do it?

 

[ovrszd]

Egon's request for "diagrams" had me doodling on a bit of scrap paper.

IF one can get over that silly notion that the tractor front end is some how lifted by the pinion gear climbing the ring, a simple vector diagram allows the LOAD to pull on a stationary tractor with equivalent results to the opposite. In fact, the tractor engine need not even be running, and the transmission can be in neutral. The BRAKES must be set however (or the axle shafts welded to the housings ;-)
In such a diagram, The ONLY vector opposing the "pull" from the dynamic load is AT THE TIRE CONTACT with the ground, Opposite and equal to the horizontal component of the "load" vector, regardless of the height or direction of the load vector. Also, infinite tire traction is assumed (right up to the moment when the load lifts the rear wheels off the ground, should that condition exist.)

Something to consider

Silly Rabbit,,, you cannot discount any notion that best suits your ideas. And you also cannot add notions that no one else is talking about.....

Everyone in this thread except you has fully embraced the concept that the front is in fact lifted when power is applied.

 

[Marauderer]

You can call it pinion gear climb or I call it rotational torgue. It make sense and all the physics world supports it that the front end will get lighter as the power is increased initially. As the tractor starts to move the rotational torque decreases but, it is always there, however small that it is.

 

[square1]

Square1, have you been able to move any logs? and how did you do it?

Still too muddy to go down there, I've been "practicing" on a less steep hill in a drier area and have found success chaining logs to the bucket, engaging the 4WD, and keeping the bucket close to the ground with a ready hand on the FEL down lever for when the back end gets light. I'm not sure how that's going to equate to the steeper climb out of the area discussed here though. I was hoping to give it a go this weekend but am helping a friend move today and a family member with a roof tomorrow. Darn, I hate it when life gets in the way of tractor time

I'm pretty much set on getting a log arch for the bigger logs the FEL won't lift like that 20+ inch walnut.

 

[Marauderer]

Still too muddy to go down there, I've been "practicing" on a less steep hill in a drier area and have found success chaining logs to the bucket, engaging the 4WD, and keeping the bucket close to the ground with a ready hand on the FEL down lever for when the back end gets light. I'm not sure how that's going to equate to the steeper climb out of the area discussed here though. I was hoping to give it a go this weekend but am helping a friend move today and a family member with a roof tomorrow. Darn, I hate it when life gets in the way of tractor time

I'm pretty much set on getting a log arch for the bigger logs the FEL won't lift like that 20+ inch walnut.

Mud is sooooo unpredictable. All I can say is be careful and be ready for the unexpected. That 20 ft Black Walnut really sounds like a sweet piece of lumber. What are you planning on making with it?

A friend has a Kubota L series with FEL and was taking a pile of debris to dump in his pond, the pond dries in the summer and he burns the debris. It had been raining and he was not even close and the pond edge gave way from being softened by the rain. My friend was smart enough to straighten the tractor and drive it into the pond instead of letting it roll and possibly trapping him under it and drowning or being crushed. It cost him three bent rods and and a cracked piston but no injury to him and he is rebuilding his motor and will still have a tractor and his life.

 

[CalG]

Silly Rabbit,,, you cannot discount any notion that best suits your ideas. And you also cannot add notions that no one else is talking about.....

Everyone in this thread except you has fully embraced the concept that the front is in fact lifted when power is applied.

OH Now I see, You mis-understand.

I do fully embrace the front end lifting when power is applied and resistance is present.

But the reaction occurs at the GROUND. Not at the pinion. As I have repeatedly stated. The pinion forces are taken out inside the transmission. It is only when the WHEELS try to move relative to the ground that ANY forces appear outside of the tractor. For the WHEELS /TIRES are the ONLY part of the tractor that can apply "tractive force". Without that, no other forces can be generated that will disturb the motionless tractor.

Silly to believe otherwise

Absolutely!.

 

[Gator6x4]

Yes I know I am late to the discussion, but, I don't think I have every considered trying to move a 1000 pound log up a steep incline on the front end loader of a 25 horsepower tractor. I seriously doubt I would try that with the front end loader on a 50 horsepower tractor with a huge ballast box on the rear. That is unless I wanted to hurt myself.

 

[Egon]

OH Now I see, You mis-understand.

I do fully embrace the front end lifting when power is applied and resistance is present.

But the reaction occurs at the GROUND. Not at the pinion. As I have repeatedly stated. The pinion forces are taken out inside the transmission. It is only when the WHEELS try to move relative to the ground that ANY forces appear outside of the tractor. For the WHEELS /TIRES are the ONLY part of the tractor that can apply "tractive force". Without that, no other forces can be generated that will disturb the motionless tractor.

Silly to believe otherwise

Absolutely!.

Pinion forces taken out inside the transmission is pretty sure to happen in neutral. If you want to move the tractor there better be some pinion forces. Note, when converting the forces that pinion/ring gear combination turn into a mighty long lever!

Or better yet go sit on a tractor and pull a heavy load! Get some insurance first tough.

 

[CalG]

Pinion forces taken out inside the transmission is pretty sure to happen in neutral. If you want to move the tractor there better be some pinion forces. Note, when converting the forces that pinion/ring gear combination turn into a mighty long lever!
Or better yet go sit on a tractor and pull a heavy load! Get some insurance first tough.

What you say is true about long levers, but where are no fulcrum within the tractor that will lift the front end. Perhaps the lever is located somewhere else. A more accurate discription of the location is wanted. Could it be under the front axle? It is so long, It must be obvious..... Nope! Not there..... Where Oh! where could it be? Where could a long lever be hidden?

There are many options to ring and pinion drive, all with the same reaction components that will tip a tractor over backwards when forward motion is inhibited.
Perhaps a jet engine powered tractor would satisfy. (Not a turbo prop ;-)